It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by lynxpilot
reply to post by Hopechest
That response didn't apply to ANYTHING Golf66 listed. This is a waste of time.
Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by Golf66
Really?
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence[note 1] and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
Got anything else?
Yeah, really. You really believe that the men who were so meticulous as to write out the clause below which could be interpreted as to allow the Federal government to do whatever the hell it wants without limit as long as the Congress felt it was done in the name of the "general welfare of the United States":
Then they took the time to write out the specifically enumerated powers (below) for what reason? Just for #s and grins? Was there a special on ink and parchment or were they paid by the word?
As written in the The 10th Amendment:
So you are one of those people who believe that the founders wrote some intentionally vague clause with the phrase "for the general welfare" then took all the time to specifically enumerate their powers that are clearly and intentionally also "for the general welfare" just for filler? Why write them out?
The SCOTUS and the Congress interpret the clause you mentioned to allow themselves to do almost anything - of course they do who doesn't want the authority to do whatever they wish? Your gullibility in going along with it is the reason the Federal government gets away with pretty much regulating anything and everything they want in a tyrannical fashion.
Originally posted by lynxpilot
Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by Golf66
Really?
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence[note 1] and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
Got anything else?
Your very own quote restricts collection of taxes, duties, imposts, and excises for the purpose of paying debts and for common defense. Again, it has nothing to do with what was posted. Let's get our ducks in a row now instead of trying to mince words.
and general Welfare of the United States
Originally posted by Golf66
Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by kozmo
I challenge you to find one aspect of the Federal Government that is against the Constitution and I will prove you wrong.
1) The Department of Education - where in the Constitution does it State the Federal government can levy a tax for the purpose of funding a department that oversees education in America and regulate the content and methods of instruction and use that leverage to reapportion moneys to those organizations who will follow those methods and views and withhold those collected monies from districts that do not?
2) Department of Energy - same.
4) Environmental Protection Agency - same.
5) Where does it authorize the Federal government to collect taxes from citizens to provide a social safety net for those who are deemed in need relative to those deemed to have too much? Where does it say that the government can organize a charity at the point of a gun, decide who gets the charity and collect mandatory contributions from citizens to fund that charity?
I don't see it in there...
Having the SCOTUS (a branch of the Federal Government) decide what is legal is like allowing Wal-Mart's legal department rule on whether its own contracts are binding. What do you think they will say?
Originally posted by lynxpilot
Originally posted by Golf66
Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by kozmo
I challenge you to find one aspect of the Federal Government that is against the Constitution and I will prove you wrong.
1) The Department of Education - where in the Constitution does it State the Federal government can levy a tax for the purpose of funding a department that oversees education in America and regulate the content and methods of instruction and use that leverage to reapportion moneys to those organizations who will follow those methods and views and withhold those collected monies from districts that do not?
2) Department of Energy - same.
4) Environmental Protection Agency - same.
5) Where does it authorize the Federal government to collect taxes from citizens to provide a social safety net for those who are deemed in need relative to those deemed to have too much? Where does it say that the government can organize a charity at the point of a gun, decide who gets the charity and collect mandatory contributions from citizens to fund that charity?
I don't see it in there...
Having the SCOTUS (a branch of the Federal Government) decide what is legal is like allowing Wal-Mart's legal department rule on whether its own contracts are binding. What do you think they will say?
This is the quote. And reference to collection of taxes in his/her quote refers to items that are selective and not general, therefore do not fall under 'general welfare'. "General Welfare" to me means that every man, woman, and child within the US benefits equally. Everything Golf66 referred to was selective.
Originally posted by beezzer
It's time to pack up our toys and go home. Everyone needs to come home.
Originally posted by Hopechest
Originally posted by lynxpilot
Originally posted by Golf66
Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by kozmo
I challenge you to find one aspect of the Federal Government that is against the Constitution and I will prove you wrong.
1) The Department of Education - where in the Constitution does it State the Federal government can levy a tax for the purpose of funding a department that oversees education in America and regulate the content and methods of instruction and use that leverage to reapportion moneys to those organizations who will follow those methods and views and withhold those collected monies from districts that do not?
2) Department of Energy - same.
4) Environmental Protection Agency - same.
5) Where does it authorize the Federal government to collect taxes from citizens to provide a social safety net for those who are deemed in need relative to those deemed to have too much? Where does it say that the government can organize a charity at the point of a gun, decide who gets the charity and collect mandatory contributions from citizens to fund that charity?
I don't see it in there...
Having the SCOTUS (a branch of the Federal Government) decide what is legal is like allowing Wal-Mart's legal department rule on whether its own contracts are binding. What do you think they will say?
This is the quote. And reference to collection of taxes in his/her quote refers to items that are selective and not general, therefore do not fall under 'general welfare'. "General Welfare" to me means that every man, woman, and child within the US benefits equally. Everything Golf66 referred to was selective.
Your opinion.
As I've stated we are looking for justification that Congress would use to authorize their action. They could easily justify it by saying education and energy promote the general welfare.
How many people in this country do not take advantage of education and energy on a daily basis? Very few. How many are not affected by others that have had their lives changed by education or welfare? Very few.
Your looking for grounds to claim unconstitutionality and you haven't presented one yet. A first year lawyer could defend the constitutionality of these acts.
Originally posted by Mountainmeg
Hubby is an electrical engineer and engineering supervisor. He's facing a 2 week furlough - though apparently they can only furlough the employees one day per week, not all at once. Funny, unlike Pelosi, my hubby doesn't think that handing him a pay cut does anything to his "dignity".
There were some politicians threatening that the USDA meat inspectors would be furloughed for two weeks straight and that this would be a disaster. "Two weeks straight! It'll close down factories! No meat for two weeks! Prices will skyrocket!" Idiots - they're limited to one furlough day per week. Any intelligent person (which does discriminate against politicians of either stripe) would have 20% of the inspectors off on Monday, 20% off on Tuesday and so forth.
Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Hopechest
Someone posted a graph that showed that even with sequestration, military spending would still be above post-war levels from Vietnam.
As a former military member, I still would be for sequestration.
It's time to pack up our toys and go home. Everyone needs to come home.
What is the non-budget wonk to make of this? Who is responsible? What really happened?
The finger-pointing began during the third presidential debate last fall, on Oct. 22, when President Obama blamed Congress. “The sequester is not something that I’ve proposed,” Obama said. “It is something that Congress has proposed.”
www.washingtonpost.com...
Obama personally approved of the plan for Lew and Nabors to propose the sequester to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.). They did so at 2:30 p.m. July 27, 2011, according to interviews with two senior White House aides who were directly involved.
www.washingtonpost.com...
Originally posted by Hopechest
Originally posted by lynxpilot
Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by Golf66
Really?
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence[note 1] and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
Got anything else?
Your very own quote restricts collection of taxes, duties, imposts, and excises for the purpose of paying debts and for common defense. Again, it has nothing to do with what was posted. Let's get our ducks in a row now instead of trying to mince words.
I guess you skipped over this part.
and general Welfare of the United States
[T]he clause confers a power separate and distinct from those later enumerated, is not restricted in meaning by the grant of them, and Congress consequently has a substantive power to tax and to appropriate, limited only by the requirement that it shall be exercised to provide for the general welfare of the United States. … It results that the power of Congress to authorize expenditure of public moneys for public purposes is not limited by the direct grants of legislative power found in the Constitution. … But the adoption of the broader construction leaves the power to spend subject to limitations. … [T]he powers of taxation and appropriation extend only to matters of national, as distinguished from local, welfare.