Faith VS Hope. The freeman´s will VS the slaves illusion.

reply to post by daskakik


you have not proven me or my premise wrong. I showed that the bible has been translated too many times to take one quote and show it off matter a factly. The quote in question is calling for a MORE PERFECT, MORE COMPLETE HOPE....It is calling for FAITH, as opposed to the false hope the law of Moses had...it is calling for us to ACT closer to God. IT is calling for us to ACT...not WAIT for or LONG FOR things that are not conducive to his closeness.

you call it vocabulary gymnastics. I say you are ignoring the very root meaings of the words as presented, their contextual applications and implications, as well as their linguistic history.

I am sorry but your opinion or interpretation of the facts are not more convincing than the facts themselves.

Hope and faith are not the same concept.

Like a hammer and a nail are not the same tool. They are both tools, but serve their own purpose.

Faith and hope are both terminologies used to describe the mental conditions we have /undergo to secure that which is not already secured. They are entirely different in their approach, end result, and usage as well as their effect.

They are not the same....sorry.

also It is not that I am picking and choosing definitions.
hope has NO action. It is a waiting for something. Faith has NO inaction. It is a quest for something. This is intrinsic to their very meaning.

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by daskakik

 

I am sorry but your opinion or interpretation of the facts are not more convincing than the facts themselves.

You got that right. Even with the facts stripped of my interpretation you refuse to acknowledge them, to the point of even disregarding the facts that you posted.

That is one strong chain you have there. Might want to break that one before trying to free mankind of the evil chains of hope.

"Exit stage left."

reply to post by daskakik

You got that right. Even with the facts stripped of my interpretation you refuse to acknowledge them, to the point of even disregarding the facts that you posted.

That is one strong chain you have there. Might want to break that one before trying to free mankind of the evil chains of hope.

"Exit stage left."

again. put in some effort before making cop out statements that are in essence an insult. HOW have I done this?

You lose an argument, since you are competing, alone, and you dismiss someone (with retarded rebuttals) who went through the trouble of thoughtfully responding to you to the best of their ability?

Exit where ever you want. You can also make what ever unfounded remarks you want as you go.

I have made my case. AND PROVEN IT. You have not....

period.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

Sorry but you really haven't proven anything other than a propensity to make a big deal out of a non issue and to disregard facts, even when posted by you.

I don't have to prove that. It is plain as day, throughout the thread.

reply to post by daskakik

haven't proven anything other than a propensity to make a big deal out of a non issue and to disregard facts, even when posted by you.

again....HOW...

that, until you take the burden of showing it, is an unfounded and RETARDED thing to say. The braying of an ass.

I have proven what I stated in the OP...all though out the thread.....I could show you...but I would only be repeating myself.

here are some quotes since nothing you will provide from this point on will be of substance, or founded in any effort for betterment. I have no desire to humor you in your "showing of face".

Courage is knowing what not to fear. faith

Desires are only the lack of something: and those who have the greatest desires are in a worse condition hope than those who have none, or very slight ones. faith

Ignorance, the root and the stem of every evil. hope

The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men. hope

We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. hope

Wise men talk because they have something to say faith ; fools, because they have to say something. hope

The partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions. hope

Everything that deceives may be said to enchant. hope

There is in every one of us, even those who seem to be most moderate, a type of desire that is terrible, wild, and lawless. hope

Plato.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

I have stated how more than once. You just disregard it, which is why I stated that it is one of the things that you have proven.

Many say that you know you have lost the debate when you resort to name calling. This is the third or fourth time that you have done this. It is also quite unchristian.

reply to post by daskakik


I dont care. I am not christian. also I can not ignore that which does not exit. HOW...you have yet to show me the errors of my ways, other than to baselessly say they exist....lol

You have made passay insults because you refuse to allow a different point of view. You say it is wrong...what ever.

You assert that you wish to WIN? the argument. You are arguing with yourself. I have contested every false statement you made with many different points of view that all converge on my train of thought. You have made sporadic arguments from stating the "common knowledge" to insisting that they are abstract ideas with a sort of (yet unexplained by you) fusion of meanings. Then you go so far as to say that they do have concrete meanings that are what you define them as.....thats funny.

If you are looking to wear me down or something....well...keep waiting. I dont hope......

the facts stand. As I have presented them. They are both VERY different ideas, different concepts, and so are not the same thing as you stated.

If you dont think so, fine. But you are then ignoring the plethora of examples and explanations I gave.

Say something dumb now about me personally that is not backed up by anything what so ever....go ahead...I welcome it.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


I thought I would open this thread and find 12,000 words on some metaphysical, irrelevant, junk that said nothing. Boy, was I wrong!

I loved every word of the OP. Great stuff, and I wouldn't change a thing.

reply to post by jiggerj


thanks buddy!

Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by Panic2k11

 

Hope is more realistic because you don't know what the future outcomes will be.

Having faith that something will happen is reckless because its not possible to simply "will" things to be.

I hope I do well on my mid-term next week. That is reasonable.

Having faith I'm going to do well is unrealistic because I simply don't know if I've prepared enough. I hope I did.

If you have to hope that you're prepared enough for a mid-term, then you didn't prepare enough for the mid-term. If you know a subject through and through, then you have faith in yourself and in that subject. Leaving anything up to 'hope' means you're simply gambling that you've learned enough.

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
also faith is bitter bitter sweat, and increasingly harder to muster. Stark and unnerving. Faith is exhausting. The path unpaved.

Hope is addictive and sedative. It makes you dependent and keeps you coming back for more. It is the trenched road to ruin. The easy path of convenience.

A junkie will have hope that "one day" he will have a good life....after this next hit. He never tries so he never addresses the fear of failure.

The rehabilitated drug user faced his demons and had faith in himself so he overcame the scary thought of trying and starting from rock bottom. He faced the fear of possibly failing but he also had through faith, the resolve to pick himself up again should he fall of the path to rehabilitation.

Couldn't agree more. It has always been said that an addict must want to quit an addiction. This takes a determination of the highest magnitude where the person must have absolute faith that there is a better life beyond that addiction. 'Hoping" to quit one day, or hoping that someone will eventually save them is actually a hopeless situation.

ATTENTION!!!!!

The name-calling stops now!!!
There is no need to resort to that type of behavior.


You are responsible for your own posts.

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Any further violations can and will be removed.

well anyways,

I found some more interesting stuff I had copied to be included in the thread and it seems like a shame to just delete them so I will include them now.

Hope, according to the Oxford English dictionary, is defined as:

• noun: 1 a feeling of expectation and desire for something to happen. 2 a person or thing that gives cause for hope.

• verb: 1 expect and want something to happen. 2 intend if possible to do something.

It derives from Old English hopian, which means to wish or look forward to something; hopian in turn derives from hoffen in Low German. It may be related to hop, which is Old English for leaping forward, in the sense of leaping foward in expectation.

Faith, according to the Oxford English dictionary, is defined as:

noun
1complete trust or confidence in someone or something:
this restores one’s faith in politicians
2strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof:

Elpis, = hope

In Greek mythology, Elpis (Ancient Greek: ἐλπίς) was the personification and spirit of hope (hope was usually seen as an extension to suffering by the Greek, not as a god), perhaps a child of Nyx and mother of Pheme, the goddess of fame, renown and rumor. She was depicted as a young woman, usually carrying flowers or cornucopia in her hands. In Hesiod's Works and Days, Elpis was the last item in Pandora's box (or jar). Based on Hesiod's description, the debate is still alive to determine if Elpis was only hope, or more generally expectation.

wiki

pistis=faith

In the Greek New Testament, the word “faith” is mostly “pistis” and the words “believe” or “believed” are mostly “pisteuo”. Vine states: “The main elements in faith in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from faith in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun (‘pistis’) and the corresponding verb, ‘pisteuo’; they are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God’s revelation or truth e.g, 2 Thessalonians 2:11,12. (2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12; (3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Corinthians 5:7. Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context”.

internetbiblecollege.net...

Again faith is closer to trust or confidence, and hope is closer waiting or extended time....in suffering.

English word "faith", ultimately from Latin fidere "to trust".........so faith is more akin to trust.

English word "hope" of unknown origin....

Old English hopian "wish, expect, look forward (to something)," of unknown origin, a general North Sea Germanic word (cf. Old Frisian hopia, Middle Low German, Middle Dutch, Dutch hopen; Middle High German hoffen "to hope," borrowed from Low German).

www.etymonline.com...
so hope is more akin to wait or expect something.

Although very existentialist in its characterizations, Waiting for Godot is primarily about hope. The play revolves around Vladimir and Estragon and their pitiful wait for hope to arrive. At various times during the play, hope is constructed as a form of salvation, in the personages of Pozzo and Lucky, or even as death. The subject of the play quickly becomes an example of how to pass the time in a situation which offers no hope. Thus the theme of the play is set by the beginning:
Estragon: Nothing to be done.

Vladimir: I'm beginning to come round to that opinion.

Although the phrase is used in connection to Estragon's boots here, it is also later used by Vladimir with respect to his hat. Essentially it describes the hopelessness of their lives.

www.gradesaver.com...

When I read it I saw Vladimir and Estragon being together and waiting for some one, really anyone, but ultimately because they were waiting for death but could not face it alone. If one died the last would die alone. They could not kill themseleves as that would be a surrender, somehting they refuse the entire time, and they could not kill eachother as that would leave one to remain alone. To die alone is to truly die. To have no witness to your life is to have not existed. The true fear of mortality. Inexistence......but here they say they are waiting for hope..or are being tormented by hope....I can see that, but I like my thought about it better. lol You must surrender to your mortality to taste the immortal.......lose hope. You must not worry about the next life, but live your life as you see fit, making it a worthy life regardless of the reward of eternal good promised. Dont wait for heaven. Dont hope for it. Have faith in it being already part of you. Paradise eternal in the eternal you. Dont HOPE you will be in "heaven". BE in heaven, faithfully. Accept your mortality and the insignificance of it. Surrender.


and some kick ass quotes that were the main reason I wanted to include these notes....

Faith is reason grown courageous.
Sherwood Eddy

Faith... must be enforced by reason.... When faith becomes blind it dies.
Mahatma Gandhi

Faith is the daring of the soul to go farther than it can see
William Newton Clarke

Faith in oneself is the best and safest course.
Michelangelo

Scepticism is the beginning of Faith.
Oscar Wilde

‘ faith’ – I’m not sure. if you had used the word trust (as you do more so towards the end of this thread), I probably would have agreed with you. I would have even gone as far as to say, that it takes a lot of strength to have trust/faith, a very brave thing to do.

as for ‘hope’ as you define it I until now would have been in one mind with your proposition as you have outlined here. I would have agreed that hope is a trap. hope holds many dangers as you have pointed out.
I tried for long not to have hope, to stay away from hope and to have my feet firmly grounded in trust, but hope just constantly creeps up. so I gave up.

therefore I have recently changed my mind radically. now I see hope as something we just do. I think like a bit of a wish, a desire. like doing a bit of magic.

Main thing as I see it, is not to have an invested interest in the outcome otherwise it can really get us unstuck and is all that you have described it to be.

Originally posted by applecore
now I see hope as something we just do. I think like a bit of a wish, a desire. like doing a bit of magic.

I think that that is what the OP is overlooking. If we desire something and we believe that it is attainable we call that faith. If the outcome is less than certain we call it hope. The only difference is the certainty that the person with the desire has.

The difference does exist, but it is so small that for practicable purposes both terms are interchangeable.

There's that old saying that goes:

'Hope is the final refuge of the coward' meaning that when the chips are down you can either get off your A and do something practical or just hope like hell things will come out right.