Faith VS Hope. The freeman´s will VS the slaves illusion.

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posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 04:17 AM
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Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by daskakik
 


I am not strengthening my OP or not.

Well you should be because it is looking rather weak.


I am trying to explain a part of our cultural mentality that is inherently flawed. Hope is a borrowed concept. We missed the point I think. It does us a disservice.

Only if you do not understand the meaning of that borrowed concept but to be honest people would have hoped even if the concept was never introduced.


Similarly we have adopted "hope" but not the understanding of what it really is. It is not our own concept. We don't really understand it.

Maybe you don't but that doesn't give you the right to claim that for others.




posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 04:45 AM
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reply to post by daskakik
 


and we are done´....

you should learn to converse without insulting others and being a jerk.


Well you should be because it is looking rather weak.

well maybe you should educate yourself. This is an accepted concept among scholarly and well trained people. You sound like some sort of idiot who just says "nuh uh". Where is the substance to your counter argument? Where is the evidence of your study? No where. You are some fool that refuses to learn. The very definition of ignorance. My arguments are well formed, well presented, and concise. Yours are simplistic, sophomoric, and false. You take the "anti" point of view and think you deserve some form of praise for being a moron that can say "NO".....




Maybe you don't but that doesn't give you the right to claim that for others.


Right? The hell is wrong with you? You are not forced to be here. Up and leave if you are this stupid.


edit on 16-2-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 04:58 AM
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I spent four compressed months on a treasure hunt. I wont go into details but I gave it everything I had right from the beginning. If at the end of my search I found nothing I wanted to be able to say that I put in 100% effort. That is where my faith lay. It lay in my ability to do everything possible to succeed. On another level I hoped that my hard work would be successful.
My faith sustained me through those four months. I labored from dawn to dusk every day and loved every moment of it.
On the other hand my hopes of finding the treasure put me through an emotional roller-coaster ride. There were days when I seemed to be on the verge of a big discovery and my hopes in tangent with expectations rose only to be crushed time and again. Finally I realized that I had to let go of all false hopes and expectations because they were actually hindering me and would weaken my faith in my ability to do the job thoroughly. So I turned hope off. I refused to entertain any hopes or expectations at all. The rewards, if there were rewards to be found, would come through hard work. Harboring hopes and expectations was a negative use of my energies, so I gave them up.



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 05:10 AM
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reply to post by zedVSzardoz
 

My counter argument is in the accepted and modern use of the terms. I'm saying a lot more than "nuh uh" but I guess it is too much for you to acknowledge because it would mean that you would have to acknowledge the error in your OP.



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 06:01 AM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 01:30 PM
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reply to post by zedVSzardoz
 

It isn't my definition, it is the generally accepted definition.

The reason I am in opposition to your argument is because it is based upon a faulty premise.

If you didn't want your theory questioned and probed you should have kept it out of the public forum.



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 


it is not that I dont want it questioned. I want substance to the argument. You have simply rested your counter argument on the conclusion that it is an abstract, then backpedaled and said that you think it is "faulty" because it goes against the established terminology and that the accepted meaning NOW is the absolute. Established mind you, by the general public, NOT academia.

Had you listened you would have noticed that I am arguing that the accepted terminology is faulty, and "my", THIS argument is the correction that is accepted by those who actually study the terms in depth.

It is not an abstract. It is most certainly two different concepts with their own definition and expression. WE have lumped them together. This does not make it right.

The same way slang can consider "phat" to mean cool, or "dope" to be hot, or "hot" to be awesome...ect...

These words CAN mean what you say they do, but then again they could lose their original meaning and become a worthless blob of language that doesnt survive the passing of time for its inadequate correlation to their original meanings.

Faith is one thing and hope is another. You dont think so? fine, argue with Webster or the bible or what ever you want. Dont say MY argument, which this is not, is faulty. THIS is the true meaning behind those words. You can listen or not, but I will not tolerate digging into me.

Argue with the subject at hand, not me personally or I will make it as personal as you like. Really I am a mirror of what I receive. Some will placate to others and consider them at all ends. I will not. THAT is a courtesy I dont care to extend.

edit on 16-2-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by daskakik
 

Faith is one thing and hope is another. You dont think so? fine, argue with Webster or the bible or what ever you want. Dont say MY argument, which this is not, is faulty. THIS is the true meaning behind those words. You can listen or not, but I will not tolerate digging into me.

Why would I argue with them? They are in agreement with me.


Argue with the subject at hand, not me personally or I will make it as personal as you like. Really i am a mirror of what I receive. Some will placate to others and consider them at all ends. I will not. THAT is a courtesy I dont care to extend.

Kinda hard to keep the argument on the subject when it is the person who is unwilling to acknowledge their errors. One can only point that out and hope that the person will not take it personally. Now, if I have faith that you will not, will that change things? I don't think so.

That was the point Anundeniabletruth was trying to make. A valid one as far as I'm concerned but you brushed him/her off as well.
edit on 16-2-2013 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 


if you dont like it, why do you remain?

I have stated my reasons. You have simply backpedaled to this....what ever this is...saying that since it is common knowledge it must be true.

Do you know that there are African countries that think that by having sex with a virgin you can cure aids?....that is common knowledge to them and at the same time RETARDED....

SO I am sorry, you will need to actually open the box and go in depth with each concept for me to even respect your argument enough to consider it worthy of a rebuttal. If you want to prove something then the burden is on you to make your case. I have taken on that burden and so expect the same level of effort from those that would oppose my view...fair enough no? "your argument is weak" is crap. WHY is it weak.....

So if you wish to engage me on the subject at hand, then please do, if not consider this retarded little back and forth over. Last off topic word is yours. If it is on-topic, we can continue....and you can then expect the same effort you give in my response to you.

edit on 16-2-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 02:39 PM
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reply to post by zedVSzardoz
 

Backpedaled?

I don't care if the back and forth is over. I'm here to point out the error in your OP. You can choose to ignore it and dismiss it as retarded but there are others reading the thread and I'm sure they are grasping what I'm saying.



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 02:44 PM
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here is 5 minutes worth of google for those that are interested.


Hope Is Not Faith
kingsandpriestsbibleblog.org...

Faith vs. Hope – Kenneth E. Hagin
hopefaithprayer.com...

What is hope...is there a difference between hope and faith
able2know.org...

Faith is not hope pt1/2
www.youtube.com...

Faith and Hope
www.precepts.com...

Hope
bible.org...

Pandora, the Beautiful Evil: the Coming of Evil to Light in Ancient Greek world
www.espacoacademico.com.br...


The presence of hope in Pandora’s jar has been long debated: being "media vox", hope can in turn be a good or bad thing, i.e. expectation of good or negative foreboding, mere illusion. Given that the world’s occurrences in early Greek poetry show mainly a positive meaning, the content of Pandora’s jar may mirror both the mixture of good and evil which Zeus apportions as human destiny, and the mixture of good and evil that the woman herself might personify: women are the evil par excellence for men since they have been created to be so, but women may “hopefully” have a good attitude and give men evils mixed with good things, exactly in accordance with the plan of Zeus.




“Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man”
Friedrich Nietzsche

edit on 16-2-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 


what is the error sunshine?..........?......?.....and waiting.......


yeah....
edit on 16-2-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by zedVSzardoz
 

Hope is part of faith and as such cannot be in opposition to faith.

You trying to pigeonhole hope as something that does not lead to action is wrong. There is nothing in its definition that indicates this and the fact that other terms like "false hope" and "simple hope" exist to be used in negative connotations, shows the neutrality of the word.



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by zedVSzardoz
 

Hope is part of faith and as such cannot be in opposition to faith.

You trying to pigeonhole hope as something that does not lead to action is wrong. There is nothing in its definition that indicates this and the fact that other terms like "false hope" and "simple hope" exist to be used in negative connotations, shows the neutrality of the word.


Faith is the belief in something. It is more akin to trust /confidence. "I have faith in God that he will not forsake me." I do not have HOPE that he will not. I have FAITH in his promise not to.

I can have HOPE that the devil will not influence me, but he has not made any such promise.

Faith is based on knowing, Hope is not. Faith is based on making a reality by someone who has faith or who has had faith placed in him. Hope is an uncertainty all together.

EDIT: for consideration. Not really related.

Abstract
Hope is defined as a concept that suggests a greater emotional component than mere expectation, and is seen as an active process of conscious and unconscious reasoning.

Hope is intrinsically linked with caring, and the professional role of the nurse can often influence the generation of hope or hopelessness in the care of patients. The appropriateness of removing all hope even within palliative care is questioned.

A case study is presented in which a patient, requesting euthanasia, hovered on the brink of death yet would not die. For this patient all 'hope' of wanting to live had waned, yet she could not die. A new concept of 'rational no-hope' is postulated.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

edit on 16-2-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 03:11 PM
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also

FAITH

The Hebrew root aman means firm, something that is supported or secure. This word is used in Isaiah 22:23 for a nail that is fastened to a "secure" place. Derived from this root is the word emun meaning a craftsman. A craftsman is one who is firm and secure in his talent.

Also derived from aman is the word emunah meaning firmness, something or someone that is firm in their actions. When the Hebrew word emunah is translated as faith misconceptions of its meaning occur. Faith is usually perceived as a knowing while the Hebrew emunah is a firm action. To have faith in God is not knowing that God exists or knowing that he will act, rather it is that the one with emunah will act with firmness toward God's will.
www.ancient-hebrew.org...


AND

HOPE

Hope – What is your definition of “hope”? Two questions might help you determine if your idea of hope comes from biblical sources or from the culture of Greek philosophy. The first question is this: “Is your idea of hope the projection of desired good things happening in the future?” In other words, if you examine what you hope for, is it really just a collection of your wishes for good things for you? If you discovered that this element is present in your idea of hope, then you are right in line with Plato.

He taught that hope is the subjective projection of our yearnings for future benefits. Of course, these yearnings often turn out to be disappointments. In Plato’s view, hope is like a psychological crutch. It helps us manage contemporary difficulties by projecting a better tomorrow, but it is ultimately without real foundation. It’s just wishing things will be better.
skipmoen.com...

edit on 16-2-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
Faith is the belief in something. It is more akin to trust /confidence. "I have faith in God that he will not forsake me." I do not have HOPE that he will not. I have FAITH in his promise not to.

And this trust can be placed on a hope. They are not mutually exclusive. From one of your links:

Faith is what makes things hoped for become things seen.



Faith is based on knowing, Hope is not. Faith is based on making a reality by someone who has faith or who has had faith placed in him. Hope is an uncertainty all together.

Not true, faith is the belief based on conviction and not knowledge.

Hope is not an uncertainty. It is an emotional state. The amount of certainty that a person can have is variable.

I think this whole idea is much ado about nothing. The bible uses hope in ways that contradict your OP:

Hebrews 7:19 (because the Law made nothing perfect). On the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

In this quote Jesus is being called hope, I'm pretty sure you would not say that he is an uncertainty.



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 


exactly

Faith MAKES things that we only HOPE for.

Faith is a state of fulfillment. Hope is a state of emptiness.

and you have to take into account translations and different versions when going into the bible. Many go with one version and get stuck on words.

If you look to your quote in various versions, various translations, you can see what the meaning that was intended is.



Hebrews 7:19 (KJ21) | In Context | Whole Chapter
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did, by which we draw nigh unto God.

Hebrews 7:19 (ASV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in thereupon of a better hope , through which we draw nigh unto God.

Hebrews 7:19 (EXB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
19 The law [C of Moses] could not make anything perfect. But now a better hope has been given to us, and ·with [by means of; through] this hope we can ·come near to [approach] God.

Hebrews 7:19 (CEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
19 (because the Law made nothing perfect). On the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 7:19 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
19 (for the Torah did not bring anything to the goal); and, on the other hand, a hope of something better is introduced, through which we are drawing near to God.

Hebrews 7:19 (CEV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
19 because the Law cannot make anything perfect. At the same time, we are given a much better hope , and it can bring us close to God.

Hebrews 7:19 (GNV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
19 For the Law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope made perfect, whereby we draw near unto God.

Hebrews 7:19 (GW) | In Context | Whole Chapter
19 Moses’ Teachings couldn’t accomplish everything that God required. But we have something else that gives us greater confidence and allows us to approach God.


you can clearly see that HOPE is not simply saying any hope....it takes into consideration the duality it often has associated with it. The very notion of uncertainty. It is a 50/50. Good or bad. Overall unknown.

they are speaking about a BETTER HOPE. This is a call for GOOD hope. A clarification of what to aim for. Not to long for things aimlessly. It is a call to have FAITH in the other 50% shot in the dark of hope. The BETTER hope to be the main association with God.



Not true, faith is the belief based on conviction and not knowledge.

Hope is not an uncertainty. It is an emotional state. The amount of certainty that a person can have is variable.


Faith is being firm in yourself. Knowing yourself and trusting in that. It is used when faced with uncertainty.
You can have confidence, faith in yourself when in doubt as how to act.

Hope is an emotional state. That much is true. It is not based on logic or reality. Hope has no certainty. It is either good or bad. You can hope for bad things to NOT happen or for good things TO HAPPEN. It is no guarantee.

Faith is always a knowing of the self. Even when all else eludes us. It is the true path of the true self. Faith is trust and is applied internally. Hope is uncertainty with your self, and is applied externally.

edit on 16-2-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 03:58 PM
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reply to post by zedVSzardoz
 

Which is what I have been saying all along, hope is neutral. Claiming that it is empty or leads to inaction is a mistake.

Your OP starts off by saying "What is hope but a disguised evil" and does not veer from that, which is not what you are saying in this post.

Faith isn't a guarantee either. I can't help but notice that they are more similar than different. The only real difference is the conviction of the individual which, in most cases, won't affect the results. This is why they are easily and often interchanged.

edit on 16-2-2013 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by zedVSzardoz
 

Which is what I have been saying all along, hope is neutral. Claiming that it is empty or leads to inaction is a mistake.

Your OP starts off by saying "What is hope but a disguised evil" and does not veer from that, which is not what you are saying in this post.

Faith isn't a guarantee either. I can't help but notice that they are more similar than different. The only real difference is the conviction of the individual which, in most cases, won't affect the results. Which is why they are easily and often interchanged.



Hope is not neutral. You can have it hinge on either good or bad. It is uncertain only to you, but ultimately it is a choice to not choose----YET. Not a refusal to participate. It is a waiting. Non action would be a refusal to act. Hope is a form of evil. It keeps you blind and inactive. Always waiting for things to turn right instead of taking an active effort in their change. Ever heard that saying "evil is the inaction of good men"?

I am not "claiming" it leads to inaction. That is part of its very meaning. I am not ignoring that is all. Food for thought here but the word in Spanish for hope is ESPERANZA. The word for wait is ESPERA....This happens in many languages. Hope is a stillness and an empty state.

Faith is not. It is an active effort. An act of filling, fulfilling something.

Faith is not a guarantee. I agree. I said that. It is not a quid pro quo system. Hope is. Faith takes into account difficulties and sees them as part of the journey. Hope sees them and says that you did not hope enough. Hope makes a false promise. A lie. That is why I say hope is evil. It doesnt admit its uncertainty. Faith embraces its uncertainty. Faith is honest.

They are not more similar but for a light over the top examination. Any in depth look into them leaves them on far and opposing sides of different spectrums all together.

edit on 16-2-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2013 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by zedVSzardoz
 

You post and highlight the Jesus is a "better hope" and then go right back to the fallacy that it is evil.

Inaction of hope and action of faith are only part of the definitions that you are trying to force. Like I said before all these vocabulary gymnastics isn't going to change the meaning of the word.

We have come full circle with you posting links and bible quotes showing that the words are interchangeable and still you are not willing to accept that this is where your OP is wrong. I guess there is nothing left to do but let the readers take what they will from all this.





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