Back-to-work scheme breached laws, says Court of Appeal

Originally posted by colin42

Originally posted by Soloprotocol
Just in case anyone has forgotten or never bothered to read about OUR Human rights...here ye go..pay particular attention to article 4..
www.un.org...

Article 23 as well

Article 22 and 25 as well..

reply to post by Soloprotocol


Whilst you are correct it is worth bearing in mind that there is actually no such thing as human rights. They are concept we have created and developed in order to try and make the world a better place.

Like time, they do not really exist.

Originally posted by Soloprotocol

Originally posted by colin42

Originally posted by Soloprotocol
Just in case anyone has forgotten or never bothered to read about OUR Human rights...here ye go..pay particular attention to article 4..
www.un.org...

Article 23 as well

Article 22 and 25 as well..

I just need one number for a full house

This is a great decision and outcome and the original ruling was disgraceful.... however, the UK Government are going to appeal at the Supreme Court and looking at all the corruption and scandals and cover-ups that we've had in the UK recently, it wont surprise me if this goes back in the favour of the Government.

It's bollocks.

All this pre-employment training stuff is just bollocks.

Poundland are taking on people at the moment and through these work programmes, they want people to go and do 2 weeks training, for FREE... unpaid, and then at the end of it, you may possibly get a job... although probably not.

Whatever happened to the days of:

Apply for a job
Get called for an interview
Go to interview and impress them with your personality and CV
Get called back for second interview and close the deal
Get offered job
Accept and begin working for the company.


Now people have to go and do free work, free "training" for the job... for weeks at a time... in the hope of "possibly" getting and interview and even less "possibly" getting a job.

Something is drastically wrong with these schemes and programmes and I personally think it's more about making a few people and a few companies a lot of money, while attempting to look like you're offering people work.

If people honestly don't have a problem with these schemes and programmes and think it's a good idea, then I don't know what to say to that.... really I don't.

reply to post by ObservingYou


I would hotly dispute the 60% figure, I think you are basing that on personal experience which is bound to be skewed - same as my own where everyone of my mates lived at home into their 20's and was supported by their parents while I was not.

Now, if you are under 21 and not living with your parents, you are entitled to claim Income support, JSA, Housing benefit as well as child benefit if you have some (which pushes up the cap anyway) and tax credits.

Citizens Advice Bureau

Now, I know that not everyone lives a nice rosy life - been there done that - but you also can't wallow in self pity blaming the Government for you predicament as that will get you no where. The only way out of such a hole is by doing it yourself. Unfortunately, our generation expect far too much to be done for them without doing much themselves.

Originally posted by Soloprotocol
I'm not saying you cant get £500 per week, but that is few and far between, usually London area, but your argument is that the great unwashed get handed £500 per week....utter tosh....try £71 JSA or £99 ESA per week the rest going ether to a council or housing association or private landlord...Just remember that £71 or $99 goes back onto the system in taxes...and huge taxes at that...

And? What exactly is your point here? Out of my £2300 a month, £950 goes on rent, £140 goes on council tax and that's after I've "donated" almost £1000 to the Government in taxes and insurance.

Everyone has to pay rent/mortgage, it matters not where that money came from, the fact is it is paid for them so they don't have to worry about it from their JSA, Child Benefit, Tax credits and the rest, so that £71/£99 a week (£284/£396 a month) is to spend on pretty much what they like, be it food, fags or booze.

When you the factor in that their rent and council tax is paid already, that is not a bad amount to be on. It isn't excellent, but it is better than a swift kick in the googlies by a donkey.

Originally posted by Soloprotocol
maybe instead of jealousy

Jealousy? Huh?

Originally posted by Soloprotocol
and paying lip service to Daily mail spin you may need a spell on ESA then you can comwe on here and tell everyone how you lived the high life and you never want to work again....

Don't read the mail and if you new me from my posts you'd know I have no time for their BS, you're just trying to paint me as something I am not to validate your own position.As I have said, I've done my time on the bottom of the pile and for a long period (up until 2009/10) I was on the breadline trying to feed 3 kids, support my partner and pay off debts. I'm not preaching from an ivory tower, but rather someone who has actual experience in being at the pooey end of the stick....

Originally posted by Soloprotocol
You gotta love the sheeple and how they allow themselves to be divided and Conquered by the Governments and media of this world...

Again with the name calling and labels - all your doing is making yourself look like a bit of a pretentious knob, really.

Originally posted by Soloprotocol
remember...once the Tories have destroyed the unemployed and sick and disabled they will be coming for YOU.

No, they won't. Their not even "destroying the unemployed" whatever that means, but making it so it can't be a lifestyle choice any more like it was during Blair and Brown's tenure. If anything, you'd think big, corporate fanboys like the Tories would love unemployment to be high, it's keeps wages down and profits up.

I'm no avid Tory fan, but their past record shows they are actually better stewards of the economy than Labour have ever been.

Fact of the matter is, if we had Brown as PM after 2010, we'd probably have had our credit rating slashed, had borrowing leap upwards and still be no better off, in fact we'd probably be worse off... Like it or lump it, but unemployment is falling, the deficit is shrinking and our manufacturing base is actually growing, which is what is needed for a strong, resilient economy.

Even now, Labour can only criticise what the Government is doing, they don't actually come up with any credible alternative.

And for all the whining and bitching on here, I can't see anyone else coming up with a credible alternative either.

reply to post by stumason

And for all the whining and bitching on here, I can't see anyone else coming up with a credible alternative either

Just a page back I did provide a legit alternative to the mandated programs.

Originally posted by dmsuse
Indeed it was, The benefits she was getting would have barely paid her transport costs getting to work.
How about you come work for me £1,80 per hour and we will see if your opinion on this issue changes or not.

Apparently, Cait Reilly lived near the Poundland in question, she has legs doesn't she? She also lives with her mother and brother, so doesn't have the worry of any real-life bills, which is probably the only reason she had the time and inclination to take her case to court. Fair play to her though for doing so.

Originally posted by dmsuse
Or are you somehow too good to work for £1.80 per hour? really?? well why expect her to do it?

Not at all, but I'd actually go and find real work rather than be on jobseekers for months. Unlike many seem to be, I am not adverse to travelling far and wide in search for work, instead of expecting to have a job 15 minutes drive from my front door.

reply to post by ObservingYou


Apologies, I must have missed it amongst all the personal attacks and name calling going on...

I shall review...

reply to post by ObservingYou


Was this it?

If so, it's not really much of an alternative - all it does is extend the length of time allowed to be on the dole then pull the rug out from under you at the end of it.

Personally, I think the Government should invest into certain industries. For example, I was apoplectic with rage when they gave the new trains contract to Siemens and Bombardier lost out to the tune of 1,500 jobs.

That sort of thing should have been a shoe in for a British based firm, but once again the Government dishes out perfectly good work to a foreign firm, hiding behind the free trade laws.

What they don't mention (and this is something the French and Germsn do) is give key work to their national firms to maintain a capability, which is allowed under EU law.

Of course they should ban any free working. Unless that person wants it. If they want it. Maybe they are well off.

For example when I was well off , I did voluntary work and was happy about it. I felt satisfaction and put as much as I could into my work.

But I will tell you what Ive noticed in the UK, the bottom of the pile, the alchoholics etc always seem to have plenty of money for booze and fags and this isnt from begging. Its from benefits. In other words the benefit system benefits their habits. Now this helps no one. They need to throw these people into jobs, low paid as a start is fine, but they need to dicipline them and prevent them from having benefits and make them do free work. This will enhance their self worth, self esteem and maybe their ambitions will change.

But the govenment doesnt. Anyway, also they could just put an end to having endless children. Maybe 2 is enough for everyone and this also might push women and men to consider their choices more.

They have a really negative attitude to things, its just throw money at them. And thats why you see so many people on benefits and doing " okay" because they dont think up creative solutions to get people into jobs that they enjoy, be them voluntary or what ever.

Really, its known that people after university have to scrape their way abit. Maybe there is alot of competition in the market. I would say the bigger companies and coporations hog the small businesses, I mean by this that as we live in this globalised market, Mcdonalds everywhere, primark everywhere and so forth. We find that small businesses cannot flurish. In order to make more jobs there needs to also be new businesses. And those greedy ones that out-buy other smaller companies need to shut their mouths and stop hogging everything this will create more jobs for everyone. Maybe the wages still wont be great. But what does it matter, when you enjoy your job/work as long as its above minimum wage you can be quite happy.

reply to post by stumason


Exactly a few very greedy people. And thats it is creating a real rubbish world. They know it but what do they care when there is extra cash in their pockets. And they have a disease its called " greed" .

As somebody placed onto this scheme I have to agree and say that it IS nothing short of slave labour, the company I worked for treated their staff like slaves, they wouldnt allow more than 3 off from one section at any one time even though there were more than 40 people there.
I even heard that one of my inlaws neighbours got staff and sacked them the day before the 6 months finished on some BS notice just so he didnt have to start paying them, he even boasted about it to my mother in law.
People like these are scum imho. and you cant tell me its not about the money its about getting people back to work because it aint true.

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by Soloprotocol

 

Whilst you are correct it is worth bearing in mind that there is actually no such thing as human rights. They are concept we have created and developed in order to try and make the world a better place.

Like time, they do not really exist.

Same can be said of all Laws and Powers...

And who is we...????

C...

No one should be forced into these programs I was for 6 months and it did NOTHING for me, I was working 5 days a week, 8 hours per day in a run down charity shop. I managed to get a job at next, thanks to a family member which was only temporary but now I'm working full time which is no thanks to any work scheme.

I was also at A4E for a small amount of time, utterly useless and a waste of money. They could use the millions given to these useless programs to actually making jobs. They get you to sit down in front of a computer, looking for work... Nothing else, I met a person that was there for 4 months, he did that 3 days a week.

They offered no training, no nothing. Maybe this was just the centre I was at but if that's any example they should all be shut down.

reply to post by stumason

Lets just say, that having worked from Essex to Wales to Birmingham and having caught trains at 3am to do so, I had no time for that and put her in her place.

Personally I call that being obsessed.

You work to live, you don't live to work.

Originally posted by stumason





. Like it or lump it, but unemployment is falling, the deficit is shrinking and our manufacturing base is actually growing, which is what is needed for a strong, resilient economy.

You really believe that crap dont you....Jesus lord, please help this sheeeeple..
maybe if you took your head out yer shuck you would see that the deficit is rising and the Unemployment figures are being hidden by using programs like workfare and the work program....16 to 18 year old dont even go on the list, so if unemployment is rising daily how can manufacturing be rising...

I dont know where you get your information, i hope it not Main stream media.

reply to post by ObservingYou


I am very glad that this abomination has been found to be illegal. The fact of the matter is, that if a person works, they must be paid.

That the government are so desperate to put people in a situation where they either work a crap job for thirty hours a week, which neither pays them, nor allows them the time to search for other work, or take part in volunteer work which might go towards the career aspirations held by a the person involved, proves that they are out of touch with the real world.

The government need to wake up and accept the fact that the reason that the vast majority of people have not got a job, is that the jobs that do exist are a) far and few between, and b) nothing to do with the jobseekers aspirations and qualifications, not to mention c) not realistically classifiable as being "gainful".

I am all for getting people into work, but threatening people with loss of benifit, if they refuse to work for free is nothing short of criminal. I hear people are going to claim back any money they may have been docked, and others may be taking government to court on related matters.... The bloody hell with that! Flog the bugger.

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by Cosmic4life

 

So im a facist for expecting those that have been LONG TERM unemplpyed to actually do something fpr their free housing and cash they are handed by the tax payer. I guess im a fascist then.

How do you work out that the woman who bought the case to court. was LONG TERM unemployed? Lets work this out. She is now age 24. She went to Birmingham University. To gain entry to Uni you need "A" Levels. So that means she left school around age 18. The Birmingham Uni Geology Course is 4 years in duration. That would take her up to age 22. She went to Poundland in November 2011, so she would have been around age 22 or just 23 at that time.
You argument of her being "Long Term Unemployed" is rubbish.

www.birmingham.ac.uk...

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by ObservingYou

 

With a maximum benefit of £2000 a month, which is tax free by the way, that far exceeds the minimum wage. I am on just over £40k and only see £2300 a month after tax and I do a 37.5 hour week. Granted, that is the maximum benefit, but with housing benefit, council tax benefit, JSA and a child or two thrown in, you can quickly get that amount paid to you.

I think most people i know who are on benefits are getting about 300 a month. When you factor in that the government is now only paying 75% of housing benefits and the rest has to be made up from that £300 it can work out to more like £200 which is £50 a week or 7 pounds a day to get food, electric , gas and clothing . Its hardly living in luxury!

Why should we pay job seeker's allowance to people who are not doing everything possible to find a job?

They are under no obligation to claim it.

But if they do, then they are under obligation to seek work. Any work. And not doing anything that may prevent them from accepting any job that comes along. That also includes undertaking work experience whilst they seek full time employment. Although, as it happens, even this isn't compulsory.

They can always stop claiming ......

Simple.