New European Constitution and article commenting on it.

Originally posted by geocom
There are many of us here in the states that do not necessarily agree with some of the things that our government have done and do.
I would however remember if I were you (no offense meant to anyone)
that everytime the United States entered a war in the past it turned the tide in your favor so that today you have the opportunity to have the E.U.
geo

You make it sound like America always saves us, yes we're thankful you helped in WW2 but America did enter it because Germany declared war on you.

Originally posted by UK Wizard

Originally posted by geocom
There are many of us here in the states that do not necessarily agree with some of the things that our government have done and do.
I would however remember if I were you (no offense meant to anyone)
that everytime the United States entered a war in the past it turned the tide in your favor so that today you have the opportunity to have the E.U.
geo

You make it sound like America always saves us, yes we're thankful you helped in WW2 but America did enter it because Germany declared war on you.

Like I said I did not intend to offend anyone with that post it was not my intention to say we always save your but it was more for those that don't see at all the contributions that we have made in the past and I believe that it was Japan Attacking us that brought us into WWII


Additionally, UK Wizard I Like that Avatar that is so true!!!!!



[edit on 11/1/2004 by geocom]

(and frankly is it not long time that you removed all your troops from Europe and closed the many bases here? Why are your forces still here? This is not hatred this is a genuine reasonable enquiry....what is the current US rational for the massive presence still in Europe?)

They are still in Europe because the host countries don't want sugar daddy Uncle Sam to leave. Let's see how long these countries still want our troops around once we start cutting budget or our dollar begins to collapse (which is another topic altogether).

I�ve read a few things about the E.U. that makes me think they are just leading the calf to the slaughter. Good Job with England staying out of that mess, let�s hope they keep their wits about them. It�s gonna be a real ugly scene over there once all these �privileges� of the working class are revoked so the EU�s ruling elite can retain power.

Believing in God is not fundamentalism, and some of the comments in this thread are very telling. If you don�t believe God gives you rights, that cannot be taken by men, then you believe that all you have are privileges, which can be revoked when your government feels the urge. That kind of thinking makes you slaves already.

Oh, and the reason we bring up Hitler all the time is Americans see Europe fall into this type of �Governments are good� mentality again and again. They someone in the aristocracy seizes power and goes on a rampage and then WE get dragged into the mess.

Which brings me into the next part of my rant. (yes, I�m afraid this post has deteriorated into a bit of one�the red haze envelops my �shut up� response even as I type these words).

I�d like to thank France for screwing the British during our revolutionary war, but don�t think we forget you frogs were just extending your little power-play drama to our soil, not really interested in helping freedom or any such thing.

Those folks in Europe who think everything is sunshine and roses better wake up to the fact America won�t be the world�s police very much longer. You have a hostile set of Muslim neighbors, who have been arming themselves to the teeth for decades now while you do nothing. The E.U. certainly does nothing for your meager defense capabilities except add another layer of red-tape into things (That lousy French Aircraft Carrier anyone?). Don�t get all red-faced about my comments on the E.U.�s defenses�they basically suck or you would not have asked for American forces to defend you against the USSR for several decades.

While America is about to face some very tough times I think Europe has some rather nastier times in store for it. You have radical Muslim nations eying you like a rich, drunk, spoiled teenager carrying a fat wallet and a new Russian dictator to your north with nothing but sea and ice elsewhere. If America is not there for the next war what WILL you do? (Except for the French, we know what those cheese-eating surrender monkeys will do).

Rant Ends�

MrNice
Believing in God is not fundamentalism, and some of the comments in this thread are very telling. If you don�t believe God gives you rights, that cannot be taken by men, then you believe that all you have are privileges, which can be revoked when your government feels the urge. That kind of thinking makes you slaves already.

True that. What's with Europe anyway? It seems God just flies right by that region without looking back.

They have no idea the terror that is coming to them.

Believing in God is not fundamentalism, and some of the comments in this thread are very telling. If you don�t believe God gives you rights, that cannot be taken by men, then you believe that all you have are privileges, which can be revoked when your government feels the urge. That kind of thinking makes you slaves already.

"God given" rights are only God given till the goverment decides that it is time for Patriot Act. Any goverment. You live in illusion if you think nobody can take your rights away.

The basic of democratic institutions are laws determined, writen and subject to change by goverment. There are certain procedures, goverment cannot just decide and do something. At least not in Europe.
All european countries are based on multi-party political system. There is rarely a ruling political party, there are ruling coalitions of several parties. EUropeans are generaly more critical of their goverments then americans and they follow closely what goverment does. One mistake and the ruling elite is done, over, on the next elections they get about 2-3% of the votes instead of 20-30%.

Unlike USA, we actually vote for the party, and not for the candidate. It is a bit different then USA, there are no campaigns of just two candidates and all that huge show. Everything is more fluent, more subject to constant change then in USA. It is a difference in a way we perceive the whole democratic process. USA and EU have two different democracies, hence the constitutions of these two have different purpose.
Again, you cannot compare them.

To form a EU wide ruling elite, that cannot be changed in a heartbeat, is impossible. People REALLY have power to change things.
I think that my fellow europeans can confirm this.

It is possible to change laws to restrict certain rights, but if the people see that it is a mistake, you can be sure that on the next elections they will NOT vote for the ruling coalition, no matter what.

Example here in Austria. In the 90s social democrats and their coalition held power. Start of 2000 conservative coalition wins majority of votes. They promise a lot, screw up a few things, next elections they are history. Now, others rule the country. Mistakes are not allowed. All laws that they made after 2000 elections can now be changed.


On a side note, I have decided to ignore all the talk about WWII, any other wars, French bashing or any other mindless bashing. The topic of this discussion is the year 2004 and EU constitution.

Originally posted by MrNice
They are still in Europe because the host countries don't want sugar daddy Uncle Sam to leave. Let's see how long these countries still want our troops around once we start cutting budget or our dollar begins to collapse (which is another topic altogether).

It's obvious that even if both parties want a quick return home to the US from the troops stationed in other countries, that is something that is not going to happen in days or 2 or 3 months.

Also, there are problems because some cities, mostly in Germany, only had the US bases as a employment source, so those cities are going to have big troubles, the same would happen in the A�ores (Azores to the english speaking people) if the US would leave the air base.

I’ve read a few things about the E.U. that makes me think they are just leading the calf to the slaughter. Good Job with England staying out of that mess, let’s hope they keep their wits about them. It’s gonna be a real ugly scene over there once all these “privileges” of the working class are revoked so the EU’s ruling elite can retain power.

I do not understand what you mean by "leading the calf to the slaughter".
I also do not understand what you mean by "Good Job with England staying out of that mess", are you saying that England is not in the EU?

Believing in God is not fundamentalism, and some of the comments in this thread are very telling. If you don’t believe God gives you rights, that cannot be taken by men, then you believe that all you have are privileges, which can be revoked when your government feels the urge. That kind of thinking makes you slaves already.

I do not believe in god, but I believe that all people are born with some rights, like the right to live, and that is one of the reasons I am against the death penalty.

Also, my government can not revoke my rights, they are granted by the Portuguese constitution, and the government does not have power to change it. Even if they tried it, we've had a revolution to throw down a dictatorship in 1974, we can do another one if we need.

The situation is more or less the same in the US, if they changed the US constitution to say, for instance, that women could not vote, what would you think will happen.

Just one more thing, Russia is not to the North, its to the East, Europe is not Iraq.

What is this?

It seems that there are just about no Americans who even have half a clue as to what the EU is or how it operates.....yet they are so vocal with their strange and funny opinions that show that plainly they think they do.

Everytime I see stuff about Europe and the EU here I can't help thinking the motto of the place has recently changed to 'promote ignorance'.

sminkeypinkey, I've noticed that too.
I guess the lack of any info on EU in mass media could be the cause of it.

I've noticed several different views of EU:

- the biblical perspective: EU is new Babylon, involved in the end of the world (mostly americans)

- the conspiracy perspective: EU is NWO, out to rule the whole world with its iron fist and some mega dictator (mostly americans)

- slightly paranoid view: complete lost of sovereignty of memeber nations to some evil EU power (mostly europeans)

- irelevant posts on how USA is bigger and better then EU plus additional france bashing (americans)

- justified concerns on functioning of the whole union, slightly pessimistic view, but necessary too (europeans)

- and of course a few good intelectual posts from time to time (random members)




To all who would like to know what EU really is, I got a nice link:

europa.eu.int...#

Originally posted by paperclip
sminkeypinkey, I've noticed that too.
I guess the lack of any info on EU in mass media could be the cause of it.

- Yeah, 'genuinely well informed' is, sadly, not an accurate description many Americans would qualify for.....tonight on UK's Channel 4 conservative commentator Peter Oborne in his program 'The dirty race for the Whitehouse' (excellent program by the way....wow, did you see that!? sminkey congratulates Brit conservative on his work; far out

) cited a statistic that 8 out of 10 Americans do not read even any kind of newspaper.

I can well believe it.....fortunately the 2 that do turn up here from time to time!

I've noticed several different views of EU:

- the biblical perspective: EU is new Babylon, involved in the end of the world (mostly americans)

- Yeah this one I find hilarious.

Apparantly the 6th of June 2006 is exactly the same as 666. FFS. Some people, they are so desparate to believe....then they put people like Bush and Ashcroft in power.

Here's hoping the 'Rapture's' coming soon, huh? (irrational fear of death?)

.....and how come when 'religion' comes into it it's almost always some over-strident, grossly and ludicrously over-self-assured, closed minded fundamentalist evangelical zealot?

As if those weirdo ding-bats are the only 'version' of 'Christianity' out there.

- the conspiracy perspective: EU is NWO, out to rule the whole world with its iron fist and some mega dictator (mostly americans)

- This is a pretty funny one too. It appears that the fact that Europe trades mostly with itself (80%) has passed these guys by.....and that the USA itself is the biggest 'globalising' force there is not to mention biggest - by far- offensive military force there is in the world.

- slightly paranoid view: complete lost of sovereignty of memeber nations to some evil EU power (mostly europeans)

- Hmmm, now these guys have been getting a lot of help back on this one from the EU-hating Brit end of things here, kind of like a feed-back loop, so I suppose it's kind of understandable, if you disengage your brain!

....cos the French and Germans etc etc all want to stop being French and German etc etc wow, some people huh?

- irelevant posts on how USA is bigger and better then EU plus additional france bashing (americans)

- Never underestimate the insecurity of some people!

- justified concerns on functioning of the whole union, slightly pessimistic view, but necessary too (europeans)

- Now this one is fair enough. We all got concerns over authority from time to time.

- and of course a few good intelectual posts from time to time

(random members)

- Best keep my eyes open for those ones then!

To all who would like to know what EU really is, I got a nice link:

europa.eu.int...#

- Good job mate

Oh, by the way, one last time.....

The United Kingdon of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a full member of the EU and has been for over 30 years.

This means England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are members of the EU now.

They are not 'about to do' anything regarding joining the EU, we are in the EU already.

(can it be made any clearer for the slower ones at the back? )

[edit on 1-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by paperclip
sminkeypinkey, I've noticed that too.
I guess the lack of any info on EU in mass media could be the cause of it.

I've noticed several different views of EU:

- the biblical perspective: EU is new Babylon, involved in the end of the world (mostly americans)

- the conspiracy perspective: EU is NWO, out to rule the whole world with its iron fist and some mega dictator (mostly americans)

- slightly paranoid view: complete lost of sovereignty of memeber nations to some evil EU power (mostly europeans)

- irelevant posts on how USA is bigger and better then EU plus additional france bashing (americans)

- justified concerns on functioning of the whole union, slightly pessimistic view, but necessary too (europeans)

- and of course a few good intelectual posts from time to time

(random members)




To all who would like to know what EU really is, I got a nice link:

europa.eu.int...#

There are many of us here in the states that are not at all against the E.U.
or any country in general I made a comment earlier that I believe I did not communicate very well and I came across sounding like we Americans think that the E.U. is dependent on the USA for protection that is not at all what I personally meant, I just read a post that ticked me off about how we Americans think we are so great and blah blah blah. I am not sure if you all know but there are those of us here in the states that do not think we are the greatest nation we all have our faults personal , national , international.
I think if it works for you and your country go for it. I am however happy that we have this thread to debate our opinions and ideas on, maybe world leaders could use this site as an example debate and argue without warring and fighting.

geo

Originally posted by geocom
There are many of us here in the states that are not at all against the E.U.
or any country in general I made a comment earlier that I believe I did not communicate very well and I came across sounding like we Americans think that the E.U. is dependent on the USA for protection that is not at all what I personally meant, I just read a post that ticked me off about how we Americans think we are so great and blah blah blah.

- Don't worry man. Of course I know this.

I have quite a sizable section of my family living in the states (and which have done for over 100yrs now).

The baiting can be good natured but I doubt too many feel real actual hostility or real rancour of any kind; at least, thats how I take it.

We support each other, sometimes militarily and sometimes economically and we very definitely have deep interconnections that mean a real serious break would hurt us both.

But like all adult relationships sometimes we disagree. Such is life. No bigee.

I am not sure if you all know but there are those of us here in the states that do not think we are the greatest nation we all have our faults personal , national , international.

- True but like us in Europe I'd say 'chin up' mate, for all our faults (and boy have we exhibited some major bad ones) we done a lot of good too, no reason why we can't do better and keep it up.

I think if it works for you and your country go for it. I am however happy that we have this thread to debate our opinions and ideas on, maybe world leaders could use this site as an example debate and argue without warring and fighting. geo

- Now that would be an idea.

I wonder if we got any? Maybe coming on with a cool name and avatar?!

I totally agree about being glad we all have this opportunity. My ancestral folks would have loved this communication we have now. In their day people left to go to the states and a card every now and again was as good as it got.

As they say we are blessed to live in interesting times!

geocom, fair enough.

I know that there are Americans who are aware of the rest of the world and whats going on. This board has quite a few of them.
It is just that these people are not very present in EU threads.

Just look at the recent EU threads.
One has, as sminkeypinkey mentioned, a hilarious and not very believable connection between EU and 666. Another one is acusing EU of being Babylon and so on. This one has several posts on how USA saved Europe in WWII, how france surrenders, stuff like that.

I really dont mind explaining the EU and our new Constitution to others, or debating it in civilised manner, but ignorance like mentioned above really ticks me off.

Originally posted by Machine
What's with Europe anyway? It seems God just flies right by that region without looking back.

- OK; I wasn't going to bother with this and if you're trolling you got me.

But this is just stupid and ignorantly wrong.

No 'God' in Europe, huh? (I take it you mean 'Christian God?)

The home of the Roman Catholic Church.

The home of the Anglican (Episcopalian to you guys) Church.

The home of the Methodist Church.

The home of the Quakers.

The home of the Greek Orthodox Chruch.

The home of the Lutheran Church and therefore the birthplace and spiritual home of every Protestant Church in the world.

The home of the Presbyterian Churches.

The home of Calvinism.

That's hardly an exhaustive list but you get the idea?

Did you really engage your brain and think before you typed that silly rubbish?

They have no idea the terror that is coming to them.

- No, we know exactly what is coming......for you guys.

We've had and been through and thankfully survived all that Church and State stuff your evangelical wing seem so keen to enmesh you country in (despite what your - wise - constitution says in Article 6).

That's why most European countires are so secular - in long established practise - even if we don't have the written constitutional theory.

The USA has the written constitutional guarantees but they - clearly - are meaningless in the face of the regular 'assaults' from these determined zealots.

Maybe it's a stage all states go through. How sad and very unpleasant for yous if so.

.....and by the way I don't go for that 'small' version of God that relies on the IMO absurd idea of Him threatening His creation just because we mightn't 'get' or properly understand His plan.....and don't quote the Bible at me either.

That heavily and selectively edited - over the centuries/millenia - book proves nothing as far as I'm concerned.





[edit on 2-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by drfunk

I hope a tri-polar world brings peace and the end of autocratic rule on the international scene by the United States
drfunk

Actually, there are some problems with that assumption.

1. Research has shown that when it comes to people and relationships, tripolar situations are inherently more UNstable than dyads or 4 polar situations. Two are persistently siding against the one. And such loyalties can shift with the weather.

2. China is not inclined to share top dog position. She has felt squelched and abused for centuries and now considers this the Chinese Century, if not the Chinese Millenium. She considers it not only her overdue right to be top dog but her duty to Chinese culture.

3. She is planning on consuming Taiwan, Australia . . . amongst other regions.