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New European Constitution and article commenting on it.

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posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by TrueLies
We the union? Who made that up? was it the governments? just curious...


- Yes. It's from the national governments, everything really major like this in EU is. They are the only ones with the clout to agree something so big.

The various heads of state and their nominees/civil servants spent 2yrs putting this together.

It will be subject to referendum in 10 countries any one of which saying 'no' will scupper the thing and send people back to the 'drawing board'.


And why did European countries decide to brand themselves together?


- Because it makes sense economically for small and medium sized countries (as the European ones are) to share costs, pool resources and avoid duplication of effort where possible.

In time, this and our historic cultural links (and yes, not to forget the disasterous history we all share) drive us toward a deepening political convergence too to guarantee our standard of living and peace.


Is this going to end up being just one country?


- No I do not believe so.

The Brits wish to remain Brits just as the French wish to remain French as the Germans wish to remain German and the Greeks etc etc.

We will share more and more but we will not lose our 'identity'......although some of the BS about what that identity is supposed to mean will be shown up for the nonsense that it is but nevertheless I do not see 'one country' ever being the result of all this.

(That's just the sort of rubbish the tabloids in the UK talk to frighten their less well-read or imaginative (or those stuck unable to see Europe in anything other than WW1 or 2 terms) readers IMO).


Are all the countries using the same currency?


- Almost all. The UK, Denmark and Sweden did not adopt the euro from the start.

Norway is not using the euro but then Norway chose to have an associate status with the EU rather than full EU membership.


ps: I heard talk of chirac pissing people off in his cabinet over some issue that had to do with the forming of the EU... Do you know what that was?


- I haven't heard that particular one but given the machinations that have gone on over the years and the personalities involved I have no doubt that there are all sorts of stories and rumours regarding where we now are and how we got here. Some true and some undoubtedly exaggerated or dubious at best.




posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 05:43 PM
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and not one of you realize just how NWO-esque this all sounds? a longterm president of a council overseeing multiple powerful countries? is that not exactly what the NWO conspiracy theorists say to look out for? i'm starting to really think the only thing the unites europe is its' collective hatred for america (of course not every person or government holds this belief, simply many of them), and that europeans will end up going to far with globalization just to spite america.



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by astroblade
and not one of you realize just how NWO-esque this all sounds?


- What are you talking about?

By this 'logic' any collective is akin to a NWO. Are you aware of the EU's actual involvement in global politics......and how there isn't any to speak of?

Is this just a guess at how scary it all might become if a zillion incredibly unlikely things were to happen?



a longterm president of a council overseeing multiple powerful countries?


- That is not what the proposed EU President is about.....and wWhat do you mean, exactly, by "overseeing multiple powerful countries"?

That is just so far from the reality of what is intended it is laughable.


is that not exactly what the NWO conspiracy theorists say to look out for?


- Hmm, fantasists can look out for all they like but this is simply detached from any plausible reality.

It is not what is happening in Europe today. Europe remains a collective of co-operating national democratic free nations. Wake up.


i'm starting to really think the only thing the unites europe is its' collective hatred for america


- Aha. Here we go? Is this your real feelings creeping out now? Because you have yet to give any basis for thinking this that is grounded in any kind of reality of what is actually going on here.

Europe does not 'hate' the USA. Wise up.

However we will trade and compete with the USA on a genuinely fair and equitable basis, if the USA doiesn't like that then the USA can merrily get lost. We don't need you.

(and frankly is it not long time that you removed all your troops from Europe and closed the many bases here? Why are your forces still here? This is not hatred this is a genuine reasonable enquiry....what is the current US rational for the massive presence still in Europe?)


(of course not every person or government holds this belief, simply many of them)


- is this a scientific guess or what?

Europeans at the moment have little respect for your current government but seeing as many if not most of us have US relatives the idea that we hate Americans is ludicrous and just so very wrong.

Paranoid mentalities or what?


and that europeans will end up going to far with globalization just to spite america.


- er well correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the current US love of 'liberal right-wing free market economics' the driving force behind globalisation? Perhaps you could mention just who are the biggest 'globalisation-ers' out there? It's the USA isn't it?

......and perhaps you could explain this amusing idea of yours about how the EU = globalisation? How does that one work?

(I'd have expected criticism for just the opposite seeing as we are a union trading and cooperating mostly with each other and not the rest of the world per se.
)



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 06:33 PM
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All things proceed as has been foretold in the Bible. This European Union is only the beginning; in the end, the Anti-Christ himself will fully consolidate power and lead it. How long this will take is unknown. That it will come to pass is certain.



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 06:53 PM
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Here is some readings from the EU constitution, not right-wing BS that is out of context :

"Article 2: The Union’s values
The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, liberty, democracy, equality, the
rule of law and respect for human rights. These values are common to the Member States in a
society of pluralism, tolerance, justice, solidarity and non-discrimination."

"Article 3: The Union’s objectives
1. The Union’s aim is to promote peace, its values and the well-being of its peoples.
2. The Union shall offer its citizens an area of freedom, security and justice without internal
frontiers, and a single market where competition is free and undistorted.
3. The Union shall work for the sustainable development of Europe based on balanced
economic growth, a social market economy, highly competitive and aiming at full
employment and social progress, and with a high level of protection and improvement of the
quality of the environment. It shall promote scientific and technological advance.
It shall combat social exclusion and discrimination, and shall promote social justice and
protection, equality between women and men, solidarity between generations and protection
of children’s rights.
It shall promote economic, social and territorial cohesion, and solidarity among
Member States.
The Union shall respect its rich cultural and linguistic diversity, and shall ensure that Europe’s
cultural heritage is safeguarded and enhanced.
4. In its relations with the wider world, the Union shall uphold and promote its values and
interests. It shall contribute to peace, security, the sustainable development of the earth,
solidarity and mutual respect among peoples, free and fair trade, eradication of poverty and
protection of human rights and in particular children’s rights, as well as to strict observance
and development of international law, including respect for the principles of the
United Nations Charter.
5. These objectives shall be pursued by appropriate means, depending on the extent to which the
relevant competences are attributed to the Union in the Constitution."


Article 5: Relations between the Union and the Member States
1. The Union shall respect the national identities of the Member States, inherent in their
fundamental structures, political and constitutional, inclusive of regional and local
self-government. It shall respect their essential State functions, including those for ensuring
the territorial integrity of the State, and for maintaining law and order and safeguarding
internal security.


as you can see it isn't as bad as some people say



thanks,
drfunk



posted on Oct, 29 2004 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by Machine
All things proceed as has been foretold in the Bible.


- Oh well, there we are; that's it end of any rational discussion over this.

Someone has brought up fundamentalist 'Christian' interpretations of Bible as if that proves the matter conclusively. Great.

(cos of course a faith based religion is just crammed full of such certainties, right?
)


This European Union is only the beginning; in the end, the Anti-Christ himself will fully consolidate power and lead it. How long this will take is unknown. That it will come to pass is certain.


- Of course, right you are then.




posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 10:16 AM
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news.bbc.co.uk...

The Italian Commision nominee has stepted down.

Many MEPS had threatened to veto the constitution if he remained after his controversial comments about gays and women.

A step in the right direction?



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by Kriz_4
news.bbc.co.uk...

The Italian Commision nominee has stepted down.

Many MEPS had threatened to veto the constitution if he remained after his controversial comments about gays and women.

A step in the right direction?


-


I'd say so. I can see no place in public life at public expense for such obvious bigots.

Why should we have to tolerate in the public office - which we all pay for - people who have clearly and publicly expressed bigotted views contrary to our clearly chosen path of equal rights?

We might not be able to do anything much about people's personal prejudices and their own private opinions (that is their right) but we can reasonably try and ensure we are not treated with prejudice in our political and commercial lives IMO.



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 10:42 AM
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I won't rant against the EU at this moment...

but


why aren't we even allowed a vote on EU membership...
we voted for a common market with the potential to become more, so why are we refused another vote now...it's been long enough



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard
why aren't we even allowed a vote on EU membership...
we voted for a common market with the potential to become more, so why are we refused another vote now...it's been long enough


- Don't worry Wizard, it's coming. Really.

It'll be what the coming 'constitution' vote will really signify.

It's not a false manipulation it's merely inevitable given the 'pressures' that the anti-EU side have been stoking up and attempting to build and capitalise upon for the last number of years (some, like myself date this all back to 1989's Euro elections and Thatcher's 'diet of Brussels' anti-EEC/EU campaign theme).

Here's hoping they enjoy what they get (be careful what you wish for, huh?).


Naturally when it comes the anti-EU crowd will shrink from the fight..... because they will lose.

Many of them now know only too well that whatever the UK gripes about Europe and whatever it's flaws the majority of us are not so insane as to expect perfection or imagine we can attempt to disengage our economy from the closer and closer integration (which we have been building in year on year ever since the end of the 1950's) absolutely cost - not to say - disaster 'free'.

(Hence the more thinking ones on that side of the arguement are already weeping and crying about the coming vote being turned into an 'in or out' debate)

But in one sense I look forward to it and agree with having this (even if I do see it as a waste of everybodies' time and money) , it'll shut the anti crowd up for another generation or two and that's got to be well worth it
.



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 11:04 AM
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Sminkeypinke,

The fact that I don’t like the wording of the EU Constitution and the documents that support it has nothing to do with my biblical beliefs concerning the future of the EU. When you compare the wording of the EU Constitution and the supporting documents it has against the United States Constitution and its supporting documents you see a huge difference.

In short, the EU documents grant privileges concealed as, “rights” while the US documents simply affirm rights. Our founding fathers believed that human rights were granted by God and could not be taken away. The EU founders are obviously humanistic in their approach and see human rights as nothing more than that which they decide is in your best interest to have.

I also have huge problems with some of the, “rights” themselves. That is for another discussion. Until then, read the information at this link and tell me if you still feel the EU documents are as good as their American counterparts.

www.nationalreview.com...



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
But in one sense I look forward to it and agree with having this (even if I do see it as a waste of everybodies' time and money) , it'll shut the anti crowd up for another generation or two and that's got to be well worth it
.


Polls show Brits oppose joining EU


A poll in The Sunday Times showed voters would reject the constitution by 49 per cent to 23 per cent.
A poll for the cross-party "vote no" campaign shows 57 per cent oppose it. Another poll cited by The Observer showed 69 per cent thought the deal gave away too much power over jobs, living standards and asylum policies.


Even Labour is Split on the EU Constitution


Among Labour supporters, who tend to be more pro-European, 49 per cent oppose the treaty.


Although i don't support the Party you only have to look at UKIP's gains in the Euro elections to see that anti-EU feelings are growing rapidly

[edit on 30-10-2004 by UK Wizard]



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard
Polls show Brits oppose joining EU


- Now come on Wizard, we already are members of the EU.

Polls show people in the UK bitching about the EU - on the rare occassion they think about it at all - which as polls also show very clearly is not very often; it's usually last on any list of expressed concerns is it not?.

We shall see when the whole thing has got going properly and the campaign's get going.

We've yet to have a UK vote that ever demonstrated an popular mood for withdrawl.....do you remember Hague's barely disguised attempt ('Save the Pound.....a.k.a. 'if I win we'll renegotiate or pull out') at this during the 2001 general election?


A poll in The Sunday Times showed voters would reject the constitution by 49 per cent to 23 per cent.
A poll for the cross-party "vote no" campaign shows 57 per cent oppose it. Another poll cited by The Observer showed 69 per cent thought the deal gave away too much power over jobs, living standards and asylum policies.


- Again these are polls taken when almost no-one knew the decided content of the so-called 'constitution'.

The only real information about what might be in it was, until now, only available from already decidedly anti-EU papers and political parties.

How on earth can anyone state a position about something they cannot possibly know the contents of?!

You seriously give that credibility? Come on. Whatever your view that is surely ridiculous (not to mention the scope for it to be dangerous too, talk about manipulating the people, eh?).....but IMO absolutely typical of the level of the 'debate' in the UK over the last number of years.

I'd rather wait until people have some idea about what it all actually says rather than make snap judgements heavily influenced by those feeding the people a hostile line.

Be honest Wizard, that's what this is based upon, right? How could anyone in all fairness possibly have made an informed decision on something (so massive) only agreed and finished on Friday?


Even Labour is Split on the EU Constitution


- The Labour party, like almost all UK parties has a spread of opinion on most issues. So what?

The Labour party is also far more agreed on this issue than the others.....even the LibDems I'd suggest.



Among Labour supporters, who tend to be more pro-European, 49 per cent oppose the treaty.


- Again, how can anyone not conclude that a 'poll' on something so clearly undefined is anything less than dodgy propaganda to an agenda.

Why should 'Labour supporters' (hmm, how was that scientifically defined?
) be anymore informed about something that has till now been unavailable than anyone else.

Surely until people know the actual content of this agreement all comment is pretty ignorant and bogus?

How can it be otherwise?


Although i don't support the Party you only have to look at UKIP's gains in the Euro elections to see that anti-EU feelings are growing rapidly


- Sorry, I do not agree at all.

I agree their support exists, of course, but I doubt very much it is much greater than Hague's tory party & UKIP managed in 2001.

(I'd rate Tory & UKIP support combined as a pretty good and fair indicator of UK anti-EU feeling when it comes to a vote - IMO very much different to a street poll - given the numbers you can probably - roughly - discount pro-EU tories against anti-EU Labour.

Remember in a straight yes or no vote (as opposed to mere poll) all the pro people in the Labour, tory and LibDem parties will be coming out.)

No doubt they'd love people to believe their support is 'growing rapidly' but I'd lay a lot of cash money on it turning out to be wishful thinking.

We shall see, roll on the 05 Labour victory and the 06 EU victory!









[edit on 30-10-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Oct, 30 2004 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by Machine
If you want to read the truth about the new European Constitution go to this link. The EU Constitution is the exact opposite of the U.S. Constitution.

www.nationalreview.com...

My favorite part of the EU Constitution reads as follows:

“Any of these rights may be limited in the interest of meeting "objectives of general interest recognized by the Union."

Translation:

“The EU give-ith and the EU take-ith away! The EU rights are no rights at all, they are privileges subject to the whim of the ruling elite.


Are you saying that US constitution doesn't allow temporarily removing any of your rights for any reason ? I trust that you're a man of your word and next time there's a martial law somewhere in US you'll take your rifle and start shooting everyone in uniform. According to you they don't have the constitutional right to declare martial law so you're a hero after that, right ?

I think that paragraph in the EU constitution is extremely good to exist to avoid described situation.



posted on Oct, 31 2004 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by Machine

In short, the EU documents grant privileges concealed as, “rights” while the US documents simply affirm rights. Our founding fathers believed that human rights were granted by God and could not be taken away. The EU founders are obviously humanistic in their approach and see human rights as nothing more than that which they decide is in your best interest to have.


Machine, EU Constitution is nothing NEW. All member countries already have laws that state our rights. This constitution sort of sums up the principles on which most european countries base their laws on.
It has a different function then the american constitution. You cannot compare those two.
It exactly fulfils its purpose and reflects the basic idea of EU: countries are united in a great multicultural mess, but they still keep their sovereignty.

While USA was created based on consitution in times where majority of population was christian, good church goers and all that, the EU Constitution was created based on already existant countries and their laws in multi-cultural open-minded enviroment.
We do not perceive our rights as "God given", we see them as determined by already existent laws. Due to the fact that Europe is a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religious society, you cannot mention one God and leave out the other one. Besides, religion in europe has turned from dominating state power to personal individual belief. We are very different then the USA in that matter. Of course, this TRUE separation of church and state is not progressing equaly in all EU countries. Italy and Spain are more conservative in that matter, though Spain has made a sharp turn in their policies since social democrats won the elections.

The basics of EU and its constitution are both freedom of religion and freedom from religion, it truly gives one a CHOICE whether to include God or not into their lives. That might be the reason why fundamental christians keep refering to EU as New Roman Empire, Babylon, end of the world kinda thing.

God is very much present in EU, only it is not pushed "in ya face".

People keep comparing the two constitutions, US and european one, but IMO, they cannot be compared because their purpose and how they came to be is very different.



posted on Oct, 31 2004 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by Machine
Sminkeypinke,


- It's Simnkeypinkey, Machin.



In short, the EU documents grant privileges concealed as, “rights” while the US documents simply affirm rights.


- You say po-ta-toe, I say po-tay-to.

In every practical way I see no difference whatsoever.

Your country has the potential to act in a manner that completely ignores the human rights and freedoms it proclaims to uphold and preserve and it has done so repeatedly whenever it feels the need.

My country is a free member of a voluntary democratic collective organisation which has repeatedly extended my human rights and that collective has never acted in a manner to practically curtail my individual rights, actually.


I also have huge problems with some of the, “rights” themselves.


- I'd be very interested to hear your complaints about our freedoms.

(....and if it's guns that bothers you so much, sorry, but most Europeans agree having and owning guns is a 'freedom' we really couldn't care less about. It's far more trouble than it's worth.)


That is for another discussion.


- Oh, ok, anytime.


Until then, read the information at this link and tell me if you still feel the EU documents are as good as their American counterparts.


- I think you - like many many Americans - do not understand the EU at a very fundamental level.

The EU is not in the slightest bit analogous to the USA.

The EU is an utterly different 'animal' comprising (now) 25 separate democratic free nation states (with their own functioning legislature and executives) freely coming together to agree common standards and practices to the mutual benefit of all.

It is not perscriptive in the manner you seem to suggest. The rights stated in the constitution are not the sum total of matter they simply form the freely agreed basis upon which all the individual nations will operate.

In the case of a country like the UK this may be seen in many areas to extend and broaden the rights of individuals as the UK has many areas and levels of particularly arcane law based on 'Crown Immunity' and 'Crown perogative' whereas in a much more modern and progressive state like Germany or Denmark these rights may be less than already pertain there.

I'd suggest therefore that your notions of which is the 'better' is pretty redundant and really to miss the point - by a mile.




posted on Oct, 31 2004 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- It's Simnkeypinkey, Machin.


no it's sminkeypinkey



posted on Oct, 31 2004 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- It's Simnkeypinkey, Machin.


no it's sminkeypinkey


- Jayzuss you got to try and lighten this stuff up at least a bit Wizard.

Talk about dry as dust.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 01:33 PM
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[edit on 11/1/2004 by geocom]



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 01:37 PM
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There are many of us here in the states that do not necessarily agree with some of the things that our government have done and do.
I would however remember if I were you (no offense meant to anyone)
that everytime the United States entered a war in the past it turned the tide
in your favor so that today you have the opportunity to have the E.U.

P.S. We the people did not agree with Vietnam and today not all of us agree with the war in Iraq and this is not to say that we don't support all of the troops from all of the countries that have made coming home a possibility for some of the U.S.A. boys

A Big Thanks To All Troops From All Nations.


geo



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