UK Finally Promised Referendum on EU

reply to post by SprocketUK


Which is exactly why we all need to vote UKIP at the next election.

reply to post by michael1983l


Which is why i favour a re shaping of our role with the EU. For me, the EU should be an economic block and nothing more.

However, that option will never be on the table unless citizens in other major EU countries (particularly Germany) start asking for the same type of relationship. It will be a simple choice of in or out and that really benefits neither us or Europe.

ETA:

Why bring Hitler into a topic that has nothing to do with Hitler? That is why i was saying it was not a rational response. Given the topic, it was akin to the Daily Mail's clarion call of "what would Diana say?".

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by HelenConway

 

Australia and Canada are huge. They have small populations too, which only helps when the resources are so plentiful. We do not have their advantages. We also do not have a decent manufacturing base - fact.

As for brainwashed, just look at the figures for growth, output, etc. It has nothing to do with being "brain washed" and everything to do with a genuine fear of economic collapse - which is a very credible threat if we try to go it alone.

in 1999 Britain was the 4th richest economy in the world. It has been made poor by floods of poor people , millions of them flowing over the border.

Business leaders have also sold GB off bit by bit - from all the big firms like Cadburys, Jaguar, Liptons,Airports, gas suppliers etc and also by outsourcing labour - there has been a very fraudulant and selfish CEO culture in Britain - I agree with that. they care nothing for the country that built them they just want to get millions in their pockets.

We have been a rich and successful nation - we have collapsed as a direct result of the EU in the past 10 years.

You know you cannot add 27 poor soviet states/ countries to your welfare bill every year and expect to thrive.

I think you have your thoughts backwards - it is the countries deeply embroiled in the EU that are collapsing - look at Spain / Greece/ Portugal /etc etc they are collapsing.

The Euro benefits Germany only and her exports - the EU is run for the benefit of Germany.

BTW I had a better standard of living in the late 90s in England then I did in Australia .. doing the same job etc.

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by michael1983l

 

Which is why i favour a re shaping of our role with the EU. For me, the EU should be an economic block and nothing more.

However, that option will never be on the table unless citizens in other major EU countries (particularly Germany) start asking for the same type of relationship. It will be a simple choice of in or out and that really benefits neither us or Europe.

You can be in favour of it all you like, the EU will never consider what you ask. Cameron has asked for a reconsideration of our terms, the EU's response to that will prove their intentions.

Actually thinking about it, the cynic in me says that Cameron will renogotiate some terms, leaving out all the important ones and dress it up as a renegotiation and dupe the idiots into voting us in the EU.

reply to post by HelenConway


Helen, I think that your reasons for leaving the EU may be misguided. The UK's economy has slipped because of mismanagement by our governments and the dismantling of our Manufacturing Industry in favour of the Services Sector. By the way, we do still have a very large manufacturing industry as it is a bit of a myth that it doesn't exist, it is just much more specialised these days, high tech industries, biotech and Space.

I do not think it is the EU that has driven down our economy but more our politicians. I also do not think that migrants have had as a devestating effect on our economy as you make out either. The benefit cheats are a scourge, but those that come in and work, improve our economy greatly. If there is a legitimate reason for leaving the EU, it is to do with Soverign Rights, not economic reasons.

reply to post by HelenConway


Britain was made poor by running up a huge structural deficit and by scrapping our manufacturing base. We can't blame the EU for that!

I actually agree with you about immigration but that really isn't the problem here. If we can successfully rebuild our manufacturing base so that we are not totally dependent on finance and the service sector, then we would be in a prime position to renegotiate our position with Europe. At present though, we simply are not in that position.

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by michael1983l

 

Simply put, in economic terms alone, we are far better off with Europe than without Europe. My personal favourite, as i have said many times on here, would be a rejigged EU, based on Northern Power (Britain, Germany, Scandinavian / Baltic States). Only France if they start pulling their weight.

I am with you on this one, throw in France and Austria and everything would be fine. But we won't see this, the whole thing is so messed up right now due to mistreating that everyone fears a breakup and a new EU. So some try to fix the old, some like to separate and some suck financial just everything out as long as possible.

Germany won't get any referendum about the EU. Even if someone would start to press this matter, he would get hushed and silencend in an instance...

reply to post by Flavian


As long as the renegotiations go along the lines of, all law making responsibilities back to our elected government, no more dictating from brussels in our national affairs and the choice of who and who we do not let into our country. Then I might agree with you. But the EU would never agree to that and our weak leaders would never petition for it either.

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by michael1983l

 

Come on Michael, i expect much better from you than that type of response. You are usually very rational.

OK here's a response based on the finances alone.

Cost / Benefit ratio for UK in the EU

It's a structured cost Vs. Benefit breakdown of Britain being a member of the EU.

This is somewhat of an eye opener, and NOTE that it does not include the costs of EU immigration to Britain, policing that immigration, or how EU based immigration is negatively financially impacting on housing, schools, NHS, DSS, and obviously upon the jobs market.

If that information was included, most Brits would have a heart attack.

Nobody is saying we should leave the common market, it was run perfectly well before the bloated EU came into being, and it would run perfectly well again.

Its obvious both labour and the torries have no intention of leaving the EU. It was used purely for voting power and negotiating power in the EU. power play, and its working the E.U. is getting worried.

The French foreign minister says France will welcome any businesses that leave the UK, should the country exit the European Union.

This is what worries me about leaving the E.U although its pretty obvious those in power don't want too now. 50% of our exports goto Europe. £25 Billion increase in GDP, and most importantly the massive sums of FDI that will potentially shoot of to places like France.

reply to post by Talliostro


The problems with the current EU are all to do with its goals at inception. In very simple terms, Germany wanted an economic and societal pact that drew Europe together rather than pushed it apart. France wanted political control. Hence the current mess we have, that will be extremely difficult to reform or remove without widespread mass European protests by the citizens.

Most Europeans i have met seem to share the same views - they like the concept of a united Europe, they do not like the current form that it takes. The fear though is that attempts to rejig the EU would lead to its collapse - whereas i think this is what we should all be working for.

Originally posted by MysterX

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by michael1983l

 

Come on Michael, i expect much better from you than that type of response. You are usually very rational.

OK here's a response based on the finances alone.

Cost / Benefit ratio for UK in the EU

It's a structured cost Vs. Benefit breakdown of Britain being a member of the EU.

This is somewhat of an eye opener, and NOTE that it does not include the costs of EU immigration to Britain, policing that immigration, or how EU based immigration is negatively financially impacting on housing, schools, NHS, DSS, and obviously upon the jobs market.

If that information was included, most Brits would have a heart attack.

Nobody is saying we should leave the common market, it was run perfectly well before the bloated EU came into being, and it would run perfectly well again.

edit on 23-1-2013 by MysterX because: added comment

That's irrelevant as Europe is a cash cow for us, a massive one at that.

reply to post by tdk84


I think you have the wording wrong there as well as the team you support. The UK is a cash cow for the Eastern European Members of the EU, The EU is by no means a cash cow for the UK.

reply to post by MysterX


Star for providing some info - an awful lot to read through so won't be commenting on content until i have had a chance to read through it.

However, it is a report by a Euroskeptic MEP. I would therefore point out that with a bit of searching i will also be able to find a report by a pro Europe group that paints a different picture.

In other words, all statistics can be manipulated and everything is biased one way or another.

ETA:

The Centre for European Reform are a much more unbiased source of information - they are pro Europe but still critical of how it is currently run. That said, as i stated above, everything is subject to bias to a degree.........

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by tdk84

 

I think you have the wording wrong there as well as the team you support. The UK is a cash cow for the Eastern European Members of the EU, The EU is by no means a cash cow for the UK.

Nope its a massive cash cow for the UK. To quote myself.

- Worlds largest single market
- Economic zone larger than that of the USA and Japan combined
- Total GDP of around £11 trillion
- 2.75 million jobs were created in the single market between 1992 and 2006. For the UK, the increase in GDP would have been around £25 billion.
- Exports to other EU countries account for 51 per cent of the UK’s exports of goods and services
- 3.5 million jobs in Britain are linked, directly or indirectly, to the UK’s trade with other Member States.
- Foreign direct investment+
- Freedom to travel, live, work, study and retire anywhere in the EU
- Free trade agreement with Japan that will generate about £25 billion in economic benefits for Europe.

The biggest factor is FDI, its massive, countries literally move to the UK becuase were in Europe, massive trade hub that London is with europe. Think of all the Big business HQ's that have setup shop in the UK.

All that FDI business who then export to Europe., as mentioned before 51% all all exports goes to Europe.

Its obvious really, why do you think both labour and the torries want to stay in Europe... because of all the money that can be made.

This whole ploy is to scare Europe and get us more powers. The system needs tweaking, and tweak they will, its already starting.

Originally posted by HelenConway
The Euro benefits Germany only and her exports - the EU is run for the benefit of Germany.

BTW I had a better standard of living in the late 90s in England then I did in Australia .. doing the same job etc.

edit on 23-1-2013 by HelenConway because: (no reason given)

Uhm no.. sorry, but internally germany is sucked empty as is the UK. We just fare so well, because our politicians bought this economic "successes" on the back of the german workforce and noone is standing up against this. We have nowadays payments of under 5€ a hour before taxes, so nearly 2,5 - 3€ a hour of work in some economic sectors. We don't have a minimum payment agreement over here, so these payments are just a modern form of slavery and there is nothing to be done about it. The people who have to work for this payment need social welfare to afford their life, and even with this welfare they don't live normal lifes here because it's really expensive to live in germany at the moment.
I lost nearly 30% netpayment in the last 10 odd years due to inflation caused by the EURO, higher general taxes , higher welfare taxes, public health insuranvce and there is no stop to this. It's getting even worse and worse.
We have massive immigration too, stressing our welfare systems even more, our pension system and public health system is on the verge of collapse and you know what our chanceloress is doing?
Nothing in this whole internal affairs, just saving the EURO with money that is needed elsewhere.
So scrap this whole EU in an instance, if you ask me. Use this whole money spend in Greece/Italy/Spain to fix internal problems here in Germany. That's what I meant when I said we had dire problems than the UK leaving the EU.

reply to post by michael1983l

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by Talliostro

 

[...] I hope Germany gets its referendum too.

Thanks man. I hope so too.

I'm not sure what to make of the pronounced date for your referendum, but this might actually be the first time I envy you Brits.

I hope you give Brussels a clear "NO!" which will shake the rotting edifice of the EU to its core.

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by HelenConway

 

Helen, I think that your reasons for leaving the EU may be misguided. The UK's economy has slipped because of mismanagement by our governments and the dismantling of our Manufacturing Industry in favour of the Services Sector. By the way, we do still have a very large manufacturing industry as it is a bit of a myth that it doesn't exist, it is just much more specialised these days, high tech industries, biotech and Space.

I do not think it is the EU that has driven down our economy but more our politicians. I also do not think that migrants have had as a devestating effect on our economy as you make out either. The benefit cheats are a scourge, but those that come in and work, improve our economy greatly. If there is a legitimate reason for leaving the EU, it is to do with Soverign Rights, not economic reasons.

I think you are right absolutely but economic reasons are the main reason IMO for leaving the EU. I was born into a sovereign country - in the 1960s, a rich country. The EU certainly has destroyed our wealth and millions of people coming to live here on benefits, using the NHS etc has certainly bankrupted us.

BTW I am NOT anti benefits for the unemployed [ who get very little actually] and the disabled and I believe the old age pension should be increased massively. BUT we should stop benefits and free housing etc for free loaders - and people who have no connection to this country who just arrive and get everything given to them.

I am NOT anti immigration either - I enjoy mixing and working with people from all over the world. But we should be allowed to choose the people that come here. Also I believe that the Australians, NZ people and Canadians should be allowed free access into Britain and it should be much easier from people from the United states to come here. Instead we have a ludicrous situation that the only people [ mainly ] that get into this country are very poor people who arrive illegally or from the poor EU nations, who have never had any connection to Britain.

Reasons to leave the EU:

1) The criminal loss of our nations soverignty and law making capability to faceless, unelected foriegners
2) We give them £40m A DAY for what?? That money should be reinvested into the country.. Bring up our infrastructure.. Secure our leaking borders.. Invest in our second to none manufacturing base and science technologies..
3) They hate us.. And its largely mutual.
4) Immigration is a very threat to this country.. An island nation with limited space and resources cannot sustain this large influx... It will be nice to be able to bugger them all off home... Housing crisis sorted.. Job crisis sorted.. And having our own law making capabilities back will ensure that those who hate this country and all it stands for will be politely expelled..

I am quite looking forward to the fearmongering rhetoric from Europhiles..

Fact is.. The people of this great nation did very well indeed without the EU.. We do not need to be joined at the hip with them to trade with them..

They need us more than we need them..

Lets not also forget the 300LB gorrila in the room either... The square mile of London OWNS 3/4 of their debts...


Bring it on!

I and people like me have fought to keep this country free from tyranny and the yoke of oppression... Our ancesters would be turning in their graves in shame at this current pussified generation..


The good ship GB steers its OWN course..

Regardless of any debate.. My country is no longer for sale..

Like someone else said.. This will end in blood..

Originally posted by Talliostro

Originally posted by HelenConway
Uhm no.. sorry, but internally germany is sucked empty as is the UK. We just fare so well, because our politicians bought this economic "successes" on the back of the german workforce and noone is standing up against this. We have nowadays payments of under 5€ a hour before taxes, so nearly 2,5 - 3€ a hour of work in some economic sectors. We don't have a minimum payment agreement over here, so these payments are just a modern form of slavery and there is nothing to be done about it. The people who have to work for this payment need social welfare to afford their life, and even with this welfare they don't live normal lifes here because it's really expensive to live in germany at the moment.
I lost nearly 30% netpayment in the last 10 odd years due to inflation caused by the EURO, higher general taxes , higher welfare taxes, public health insuranvce and there is no stop to this. It's getting even worse and worse.
We have massive immigration too, stressing our welfare systems even more, our pension system and public health system is on the verge of collapse and you know what our chanceloress is doing?
Nothing in this whole internal affairs, just saving the EURO with money that is needed elsewhere.
So scrap this whole EU in an instance, if you ask me. Use this whole money spend in Greece/Italy/Spain to fix internal problems here in Germany. That's what I meant when I said we had dire problems than the UK leaving the EU.

OK I concede I am wrong them - I should have said run for the benefit of the German politicians and the elite. To be honest that is the same in Britain it is the 'elite; and the politicians that love what the EU is today, they benefit from cheap labour etc.

edit on 23-1-2013 by HelenConway because: (no reason given)