UK Finally Promised Referendum on EU

Originally posted by HelenConway
reply to post by tdk84

 

We could have a free trade zone without being a full EU member.

Your right there, and its the single reason why I think we would be ok either way... but why be OK when there's the potential for so much more.

But you know at this point all this is conjecture, we need to know what extra power we would gain, what gets negotiated.

If we get more power and control we will stay... we dont get what we want the public will vote us out. Its as simple as that.

reply to post by tdk84


Gain what?? The normal citizen gains bugger all except for being out priced in jobs.. Housing.. Taxes bugfered off to people who refuse an audit for its use..

Seriously.. The tories are mostly business owners who benifit from cheap labour et al.. Thry are in it for themselves.. If the country sinks they could not care less!

Wake up dude

reply to post by Flavian

Well, that's the tricky part... Let's see how your referendum works out.
A recent survey conducted in Germany by TNS Emnid showed that ~85% here "don't like" the €Z/EU.
I really hope you Brits turn out in masses and defend your Islands from Brussels powergrip.

Originally posted by EvanB
reply to post by tdk84

 

Gain what?? The normal citizen gains bugger all except for being out priced in jobs.. Housing.. Taxes bugfered off to people who refuse an audit for its use..

Seriously.. The tories are mostly business owners who benifit from cheap labour et al.. Thry are in it for themselves.. If the country sinks they could not care less!

Wake up dude

Labour were exactly the same. Who represents the people in parliament ???

Camoron and cleggy lol frightened that UKIP will beat them in the next election. 5 yrs before we get a vote?
The paddys had a vote and it wasnt excepted. What makes you think that our vote will count? Any way with the rich german twats we have in buck house, it wouldnt change much.

reply to post by tdk84

Think of all the Big business HQ's that have setup shop in the UK.

Do you mean the ones that take advantage of all the services they need to operate here, but avoid paying taxes? The one's which despite vast profits, it's employees are paid such a pittance they have to claim benefits, therefore costing us taxpayers more of our hard-earned to have them operate here?

Let them push off to France then, let's see how long the French put up with their freeloading ways.

We won't miss them.

Originally posted by EvanB
reply to post by tdk84

 

Gain what?? The normal citizen gains bugger all except for being out priced in jobs.. Housing.. Taxes bugfered off to people who refuse an audit for its use..

Seriously.. The tories are mostly business owners who benifit from cheap labour et al.. Thry are in it for themselves.. If the country sinks they could not care less!

Wake up dude

I'm talking about economic gains and powers i.e. greater control in the UK and less in Brussels.

And that's exactly what I've been saying! Its the single reason they want to remain in Europe due too all the money that can be made. Europe's a cash cow.

Originally posted by doobydoll
reply to post by tdk84

 

Think of all the Big business HQ's that have setup shop in the UK.

Do you mean the ones that take advantage of all the services they need to operate here, but avoid paying taxes? The one's whose employees are paid such a pittance they have to claim benefits, despite vast profits? - thereby costing us taxpayers more of our hard-earned to have them operate here.

Let them push off to France then, let's see how long the French put up with their freeloading ways.

We won't miss them.

No I was thinking of the countless car manufacturers, and all businesses that generate millions of jobs and more importantly exports. Your talking about a Minority in the recent media. I believe post have now paid in too. Either way they generate jobs though.

Originally posted by tdk84

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by tdk84

 

And you think that is a good enough reason to hand over our democracy into the hands of a dictatorship and smile whilst we do so?

Nope, I dont agree with that, it wont happen... this is the very reason France has fallen out with Germany. This is the kind of thing that will be negotiated.

To be fair the idea is sound and the idea would work but who wants to give up their power. For those who don't know the reason Germany want to unite in such a way is to gain fiscal control. Sort out the mess in Europe. Like I said the idea is sound but who wants to do that.

I've got news for you, it has already happened. Brussels have on numerous occasions, overruled our democratically elected government and forced us to abide by rules decided in Brussels, by unelected politicians. Unelected politicians forcing laws upon us = a dictatorship.

reply to post by EvanB

That money should be reinvested into the country.. Bring up our infrastructure.. Secure our leaking borders.. Invest in our second to none manufacturing base and science technologies..

I don't agree that anything will 'end in blood', but i certainly agree with your above quote.

The money being siphoned off for Eurocrats, should be invested within our own borders.

I would stress, that in my opinion, THE paramount thing we need is a skilled and intelligent workforce...or rather MORE of it.

Training, education and social improvements are key to Britains long term future, and i'm not just talking about financial prosperity, but raising standards across the board.

Yes, immigration to support missing skills is desirable...but there's a huge difference between Britain importing missing skills and opening the flood gates of 'free movement'.

Ultimately, we have a poole of 65 Million people in Briatin, if we cannot nurture our people and supply effective education and proper training (as opposed to massaging the unemployment stats), we've had it.

I would suggest one of the biggest areas for a radical shake up would be education for the young. People have their strengths and weaknesses, some are gifted academically, others not so.

I suggest education should offer alternative education for those who early on show little aptitude for academic learning, and instead offer those real, funded and quality vocational training in manufacturing skills, trades and many other areas of their choosing, backed by the 'three R's'.

Yes, it would cost...but in my opinion, it is a cost Britain cannot afford not to spend, if we want a viable future for our kids and their kids.

May i take this opportunity to remark on how very civilised this thread has been so far...no single instance of name calling, insults and the rest of it.

Very nice, well done all (see yanks, this is how we Brits argue!)

Originally posted by tdk84

Originally posted by doobydoll
reply to post by tdk84

 

No I was thinking of the countless car manufacturers, and all businesses that generate millions of jobs and more importantly exports. Your talking about a Minority in the recent media. I believe post have now paid in too. Either way they generate jobs though.

edit on 23-1-2013 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)

You do realise that we use to have our own car businesses before they were taken down and sold for the benefit of the CEOs and their cronies. When a UK company is stolen sorry sold - the head office moves out of the UK, jobs are lost and the taxes are no longer paid to the UK, just a small amount is paid if they still maintain operations here.

Most large companies do not pay as much tax percentatage wise as you and I.

We used to have jobs with salaries/ overtime/ holiday pay/ sick pay / pensions/ benefits like company cars/ free lunches etc.

Not now - those jobs are being replaced with low paid - no promotion prospect - no security - no benefits rubbish jobs. In order to increase the pay of the CEO and his international cabal.

edit on 23-1-2013 by HelenConway because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by michael1983l

Originally posted by tdk84

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by tdk84

 

And you think that is a good enough reason to hand over our democracy into the hands of a dictatorship and smile whilst we do so?

Nope, I dont agree with that, it wont happen... this is the very reason France has fallen out with Germany. This is the kind of thing that will be negotiated.

To be fair the idea is sound and the idea would work but who wants to give up their power. For those who don't know the reason Germany want to unite in such a way is to gain fiscal control. Sort out the mess in Europe. Like I said the idea is sound but who wants to do that.

I've got news for you, it has already happened. Brussels have on numerous occasions, overruled our democratically elected government and forced us to abide by rules decided in Brussels, by unelected politicians. Unelected politicians forcing laws upon us = a dictatorship.

I meant further control... this whole speech was talking about us getting our power back or leaving. It will happen. Even France, Germany's biggest supporter wants this to happen.

reply to post by MysterX


Education does need to be improved ten fold, but this is difficult to do whilst there is a migrant strain on school places. Overcrowding, obviously leads to lower standards. The British taxpayer has spent hundreds of years investing in our education infrastructure to get where we are today, why should some Bulgarian just come in and take that for free at the expense of our own childrens quality of education?

reply to post by tdk84


So your happy just being a part time dictatorship as long as we don't give more powers away? Throughout world history, you name me one Dictator that has ever been happy with just limited powers? Eventually Brussels will take the lot.

Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by Flavian

 

I really hope you Brits turn out in masses and defend your Islands from Brussels powergrip.

That part is my fear - it will be about nationalism rather than pragmatism. By that, i mean it will play out with us withdrawing from Europe altogether - if the nation says no, it will be very difficult to get it to agree to join a new improved EU.

I know it is pie in the sky thinking but that is why i really want Europeans to stand together on this. To say yes, we want an economically integrated Europe and no, we do not want to give up our national identities or our National powers.

I would suggest everyone on this thread has a leisurely perusal of this link.....Centre for European Reform

It is the topics page from the Centre for European Reform. Loads to look through. What may surprise some on here is the amount of agreement about all sorts of issues that we share with our fellow Europeans - and how many serving MEP's also think reform is needed.

Originally posted by michael1983l
reply to post by MysterX

 

Education does need to be improved ten fold, but this is difficult to do whilst there is a migrant strain on school places. Overcrowding, obviously leads to lower standards. The British taxpayer has spent hundreds of years investing in our education infrastructure to get where we are today, why should some Bulgarian just come in and take that for free at the expense of our own childrens quality of education?

This is a problem that can be fixed though and negotiated. It has to be, like I said Germany has a far bigger problem then us along with others. The rules need to be changed and resolved in some fashion. it has to be.

reply to post by Flavian


It will always be about nationalism and quite rightly so for as long as our democratically elected government is routinly overruled and undermined by unelected officials in Europe. It can't be anything but about nationalism, until that is changed.

reply to post by ColCurious


You and me don't have anything to gain from this, to be honest. Our social systems got run down in the last 10 years, our infrastructure is crumbling and we see poverty emerging more and more. Just look around you, there is something really wrong in Germany and noone bothers to stand up because everyone is saying "Oh hey, don't complain, just look how bad it is for XY. So hush and work on."
This attitude is getting us nowhere, noone except the politicans and already rich benefit from the massive succes of the german economy.
There is nothing to gain for the majority of the german people except getting poorer over the time.

seems like the same problems the UK has

reply to post by michael1983l


Excellent article in The Telegraph today by Janet Daley explaining this:

blogs.telegraph.co.uk...

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by michael1983l
Today the Prime Minister has finally promised an in/out referendum on the EU.

A vote in 2017? Why not 2013?

Cameron promised a "cast-iron" guarantee of a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty - but abandoned the pledge six months before last year's general election.

Me thinks he will also find a reason to abandon this promise after election. I don't trust him.

edit on 23-1-2013 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)

You are correct. 3+ years is a long time in the World of Politics and it is certain that some event will occur that will make DC 'change his stance' on such a bold claim'. Or by convenience he loses the next election and things remain the same.