"Russia moves to enact anti-gay law nationwide"

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
What do you mean by "force"?

What I'm trying to say is, great homosexuality is being brought to the spotlight in Western countries, people are becoming more aware and are pushing for equal rights etc.. Thats fine, even I can agree with that. No harm. But when it comes to other countries and this includes countries who strictly follow religious doctrines whether they are good or bad, we shouldn't expect those countries to change their ways just because we believe homosexuality is right.

What I would want, and what I do, is encourage people to discuss it. Communication. Try to understand the moral implications and ramifications of the actions that could be taken whether it's in support or in opposition. I believe in supporting it because I believe in equality and I believe they're persecuted. You are free to argue. I hope you would! I also hope both of us would be open enough to consider each other's views. And by "you" I mean anyone and everyone. Is that "forcing"? Is discussion frowned upon?

I understand the pro side, don't get me wrong.. Its just I understand how some other cultures operate also and we cannot expect them to follow our lead because we believe its the right thing for humanity. Some people disagree, even in our countries, its a touchy subject.

I vehemently, fundamentally, reject everything that sentence stands for

And thats your choice..

Excellent. That's debate. Sounds good

Most of the debate comes down to religion, I wont lie

There have been many answers already in the thread. I guess you haven't been following?

I haven't been following the thread, just popping in now and again..

Here is one of many. In Russia they discriminate (rather harshly) against homosexuals kissing in public.

Thats fair enough.. But what if this was happening in Iran and they clearly stated it was for religious purposes and not to discriminate against homosexuals? Would homosexuals accept that?

I watched your video in its entirety. Now if you will match mine in courtesy, I have one for you. Don't be put off by the title, it truly addresses what both of us have mentioned. It's quite pertinent.

I can't watch it right now but when I get the chance, I will take a look. This isn't about me believing its wrong, but we must respect the fact that other cultures are not as open as we are. Russia is different because from what I can gather, they aren't doing this for religious purposes, they are just doing it but if it was happening in a religious country, I could see where they are coming from. Some follow their doctrines to the tee and I wouldn't expect those countries to change their stance on the issue. The way they treat people because of their sexuality is another story though. That is something we could change.. The penalties are harsh in some places.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
reply to post by DarknStormy
The point is you cannot force your beliefs on another country. It doesn't matter whether people like it or not, you just have to accept it. Some countries do not agree with homosexuality.

Some countries also didn't like Jews in the 40s. A harsh example, but true.

Yes, people do business with those countries, but that doesn't mean what they're doing isn't wrong. I do think there is a line a country can cross where it is doing too much but that's a whole other topic.

As much as you can put up an argument for homosexuals, the people against it can also put up an argument to why they do not accept it in their countries.

I don't see that in dispute.

I do dispute governments legislating a person's private life; I believe private life also extends to holding hands and being affectionate within reason in public.

It's the same way I don't support banning religious and practices that are not harmful. Russia has done that before too, and so has Iran. It is wrong. People should have freedom to search for their own truth.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
reply to post by Pinke

 

Some people and countries don't accept homosexuality... Whats the problem? Not everyone around the world MUST accept homosexuality. Ahmadinejad explains this issue very well to Piers Morgan.

From that interview:

Ahmadinejad on religion and anti-Islamic films:

Fundamentally, first of all, any action that is provocative, offends the religious thoughts and feelings of any people, we condemn. Likewise, we condemn any type of extremism. Of course, what took place was ugly. Offending the Holy Prophet is quite ugly. This has very little or nothing to do with freedom and freedom of speech. This is the weakness of and the abuse of freedom, and in many places it is a crime.

This is the same person that believes in banning Western music, imprisoning people that speak out against himself and Islam, and has very little respect for freedom of expression.

Ahmadinejad then says this in reference to homosexuality:

if a group recognizes an ugly behavior or ugly deed as legitimate, you must not expect other countries or other groups to give it the same recognition.

You have to recognize this as the mobius strip of logic that it is. On one hand, claiming free speech and will, and on the other rejecting it when it suits.

Ahmadinejad probably thinks he is doing the right thing, but he is forcing people to do it against their will. Even if Ahmadinejad is correct, and I am going to burn in hell ... he is going about it all wrong. Trying to legislate gay people out of existence is not 'rejecting extremism'.

People will do things you don't like. They will have ideas you don't like. They will hold hands with people you don't like. Banning these things is not the answer.

Ahmadinejad can say whatever he likes if that's what you're defending. A nation isn't a person though, and I can say whatever I like about stupid laws that prevent free will. Religion is no excuse.

Some more quotes:

People must have the right to express themselves freely.

Yet very little freedom to disagree.

extremism gives birth to following and subsequent extremists.

This part I agree with ... Ahmadinejad is creating extremists every day by not allowing people's free will. I don't think religion is a valid excuse for this.

Originally posted by Juggernog
reply to post by Pinke

 

You give it a rest, I never mentioned anything about a cult and I dont think I was even talking about your uncle.. was I?

If you read the rest of the thread you would understand what I said.

And claiming that homosexuals would shun other homosexuals based on their opinions as if there is some type of fabulous gay hive mind is 'cultish'.

I read this article the other day on Yahoo and I found it disturbing. It has seemed to me for a while now that Putin is trying to restore some type of old Soviet control over the people. How far he wants to go, who knows. But what is different this time is that instead of trying to create an atheist state he seems to have developed a strong relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church. In this particular instance he seems to be using the church's views on homosexuality to legitimize his stance on homosexual "corruption" of the Russian youth. I'm not sure exactly the end goal, but Putin can't have his citizens thinking for themselves and making their own decisions. (Oh wait, I guess I can't buy a giant soda in New York or poke some smot in my bedroom and eat Cheetos.) Not that I agree with it one bit, but to me, it's a brilliant strategy. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

Everybody should be aware that Putin is enacting his dream of a Eurasion Union soon. Say hello to the Soviet Union 2.0...the second Cold War is at it's doorstep

reply to post by jhn7537


why are you automatically a bigot if you don't agree with homosexuality? I myself personally believe its a mental condition , but I also don't think it can be fixed like a lot of Christians do. I have worked with dozens of homosexuals ( i work in the restaurant industry) over the years and have been friends with many of them, and all of them have been a little off in the head department and all of them have had self destructive addictions.

The problem is that there is so much propaganda out there saying that gays are everywhere and make up such a large portion of the country do to the Kinsey report (which was shown to have tons of falsified info). But in reality they only make up less then 5 percent of the U.S., look that stat up anywhere to confirm it. For those of you who say pedophilia is completely different and would never become legal go look up NAMBLA they often attend and are invited to many pro gay rallies. you push the issue enough over time and people are going to start to sway. look at abortion a hundred years ago it was considered murder today only if the fetus is so old.

The other issue at hand is how it makes us look in front of our rivals. when I hear that an gay couple is getting married at one of our nations most important military academies west point, which happened a few months ago it worries me. How do you think that makes us look to China or Russia who want to be then next top dog. They see us demasculinizing, they say hey look at those fat lazy Americans now there military is getting all soft and sensitive, bet we can take them.

i don't know these are just my views I'm not a bigot, this is just what I have observed over time.

reply to post by chrismarco
i believe people should have the freedom to do as they please, even if i don't agree with it, so long as no harm is done to another person. that being said, the best thing the US can do is lead by example (which we still have a lot of work to do) and not shove our views down anyone's throats. i'm not saying you are, i'm just saying.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I hate to sound inhumane but at what point to we draw the line? You do understand the next step will be equal rights to transvestites. Which (I might add) most homosexuals do not approve of them. Yet as we all know, they are human beings too! Once they have their say and it becomes putative, what follows then?

We must have a certain degree of proper etiquette in society. Yes, as humans we all deserve equal rights. However, not all rights we deserve are appropriate. For example: Here in California there is a fad about walking around with your pants halfway to your knees. I’m sure those individuals feel they deserve the right to express their fashion statement, and to a certain degree I believe they do. But is it proper?

A hetero sexual couple intimately making out in public (Certainly within their rights) but is it appropriate?

ATS for instance, promotes freedom of speech. However if you express yourself inadequately by using foul language your post will be removed and if you continue you could possibly be banned. Freedom has to have its limitations that concur with what is perceived as improper. I can go on and on…

Society if left unchecked and allowed to have absolute freedom would undoubtedly collapse. The short answer as dubious as it sounds is… We all deserve the rights to equality, freedom of speech, religion, etc. Never the less, lines have to be drawn at some point regardless of sexual orientation, religious affinity, or ethnic group.

Russia isn't the US they can do whatever they want that the people either agree with or the government can get away with.

As far as the LGBT? movement as a KGB psyop is concerned that is actually really interesting.
I would point out that several years ago I heard a blurb on the radio about a study at a university that was trying to find out why some male rams were gay. According to the radio station at the time, a rancher was going to lose a lot of money because he bought two rams and they chose to hump each other instead of his herd. I am not sure if some of the sheep used in this study were bred from his lines or the breeder he got them from or if it even really had anything to do with his sheep, but the year seems about right for when I remember hearing it.

www.sciencedaily.com...
from the article:
"The study examined 27 adult, 4-year-old sheep of mixed Western breeds reared at the U.S. Sheep Experiment Station. They included eight male sheep exhibiting a female mate preference – female-oriented rams – nine male-oriented rams and 10 ewes.

OHSU researchers discovered an irregularly shaped, densely packed cluster of nerve cells in the hypothalamus of the sheep brain, which they named the ovine sexually dimorphic nucleus or oSDN because it is a different size in rams than in ewes. The hypothalamus is the part of the brain that controls metabolic activities and reproductive functions.

The oSDN in rams that preferred females was "significantly" larger and contained more neurons than in male-oriented rams and ewes. In addition, the oSDN of the female-oriented rams expressed higher levels of aromatase, a substance that converts testosterone to estradiol so the androgen hormone can facilitate typical male sexual behaviors. Aromatase expression was no different between male-oriented rams and ewes. "

The thing that stuck out in my mind even though I heard about this years and years ago was the fact that there was in fact something biologically wrong with the sheep that caused the behavior. I know it isn't politically correct to say it is a mental/biological disorder to be gay, but if you throw the emotions and poticial spin out and simply look at biological fact with detached cold logic... males and females have different reproductive organs for a reason. There is no other reason for separate genders. Homosexuality in animals and people happens due to mutations, messed up hormones, bad genes, etc. It isn't natural and if you believe in evolution then you should definitely believe that nature throws out dead-ends sometimes, because gay animals are NOT going to continue to pump out offspring without some sort of outside intereference. (People are different because people can get around that with treatments, adoptions, surgeries, etc.)

I find it interesting that the rams that prefered rams had considerably smaller nerve sections in the relevant brain area and had issues with converting testosterone and estrogen (another article on that study if it wasn't in the one I linked). This also brings me back around to the comment from the Mod about the KGB connection and what others have mentioned about the NWO promoting this and wanting population control (and just control in general). Men nowadays are said to have WAYYYYY less testosterone and act more femine as well as they have more estrogen features. Soy for instance is avoided by some of the body builders I knew because they said studies they had come across said that it converts into an estrogen like hormone in the body and guys they knew who supplimented with it heavily developed "man breasts" like a woman. All the toxins and things in our food and water.. makes you wonder about the soft kill conspiracies out there.

Originally posted by chrismarco
...polls conducted last year show that almost two thirds of Russians find homosexuality "morally unacceptable...

Read the quoted part once again. Russia is a "democracy". Which means majority rules. If two thirds of the population are bothered by homosexual acts displayed in public, then they may as well be illegal. It's not like they're stopping them from doing it in the bedroom - now that could be classified as privacy invasion and taking away someone's rights. Harsh truth.

Originally posted by Beowolfs
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

I hate to sound inhumane but at what point to we draw the line? You do understand the next step will be equal rights to transvestites. Which (I might add) most homosexuals do not approve of them. Yet as we all know, they are human beings too! Once they have their say and it becomes putative, what follows then?

We must have a certain degree of proper etiquette in society. Yes, as humans we all deserve equal rights. However, not all rights we deserve are appropriate. For example: Here in California there is a fad about walking around with your pants halfway to your knees. I’m sure those individuals feel they deserve the right to express their fashion statement, and to a certain degree I believe they do. But is it proper?

A hetero sexual couple intimately making out in public (Certainly within their rights) but is it appropriate?

ATS for instance, promotes freedom of speech. However if you express yourself inadequately by using foul language your post will be removed and if you continue you could possibly be banned. Freedom has to have its limitations that concur with what is perceived as improper. I can go on and on…

Society if left unchecked and allowed to have absolute freedom would undoubtedly collapse. The short answer as dubious as it sounds is… We all deserve the rights to equality, freedom of speech, religion, etc. Never the less, lines have to be drawn at some point regardless of sexual orientation, religious affinity, or ethnic group.

The point where we draw the line is when someones rights negatively affect the rights, safety, etc of another. How does anyone getting married affect you in any way? Whether they be straight, gay, transgender, or whatever. It does not. Same with what people wear or do in public.

Also, who defines what decent or proper is? This county had many different cultures and points of view. Some have different interpretations of what is acceptable, so when we draw lines somebody is going to get cut by them. I think people often use this line of reasoning as a smokescreen to hide their prejudice. If you don't like gays, blacks, Christians, Muslims, or any other group, just come out and say it. Not directed at you, but by reading this thread one can see that there are a lot of WBC hopefuls here. Truly disgusting.



Finally, the reason our society is failing has nothing to do with this gays, or lack of religious beliefs as many of the closet bigots will have you believe. I place the blame for that squarely on the engine of globalization and the unbridled greed that fuels it.

Originally posted by hacko

Originally posted by chrismarco
...polls conducted last year show that almost two thirds of Russians find homosexuality "morally unacceptable...

Read the quoted part once again. Russia is a "democracy". Which means majority rules. If two thirds of the population are bothered by homosexual acts displayed in public, then they may as well be illegal. It's not like they're stopping them from doing it in the bedroom - now that could be classified as privacy invasion and taking away someone's rights. Harsh truth.

Yes the majority rules in a democracy, but the minority has rights. Russia is free to do this because they are a sovereign nation. Change is up to the Russian people. However, we also have the right to call out the hypocrisy, ignorance, and intolerance expressed by passing a law such as this. Even if we are powerless to stop it, discussion is a good thing.

All I gotta say is God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve

Originally posted by bigcountry08
reply to post by jhn7537

 

why are you automatically a bigot if you don't agree with homosexuality? I myself personally believe its a mental condition , but I also don't think it can be fixed like a lot of Christians do. I have worked with dozens of homosexuals ( i work in the restaurant industry) over the years and have been friends with many of them, and all of them have been a little off in the head department and all of them have had self destructive addictions.

The problem is that there is so much propaganda out there saying that gays are everywhere and make up such a large portion of the country do to the Kinsey report (which was shown to have tons of falsified info). But in reality they only make up less then 5 percent of the U.S., look that stat up anywhere to confirm it. For those of you who say pedophilia is completely different and would never become legal go look up NAMBLA they often attend and are invited to many pro gay rallies. you push the issue enough over time and people are going to start to sway. look at abortion a hundred years ago it was considered murder today only if the fetus is so old.

The other issue at hand is how it makes us look in front of our rivals. when I hear that an gay couple is getting married at one of our nations most important military academies west point, which happened a few months ago it worries me. How do you think that makes us look to China or Russia who want to be then next top dog. They see us demasculinizing, they say hey look at those fat lazy Americans now there military is getting all soft and sensitive, bet we can take them.

i don't know these are just my views I'm not a bigot, this is just what I have observed over time.

I wouldn't say not agreeing with homosexuality makes one a bigot, just like agreeing with it doesn't make one a homosexual. It is when you express hate and a desire to hinder them based on nothing but fear and ignorance.

I will call you a bigot though. First of all the belief that homosexuality is a mental illness. Being gay does not diminish your capacity to function and deal with the everyday demands of society. Most of the issues gays face come from the hate and ignorance of others. Second, you pull the age old tactic of attempting to associate homosexuality with pedophilia. Gays do not promote or condone child molesters. If any do, I doubt their homosexuality is the root cause of their issues. Pedophilia is not just restricted to man on boy either. Finally, why exactly does a gay wedding at West Point worry you? If anything the fact that they have what it takes to be in our nations military, and be part of one of the most prestigious military institutions in the world should erase any doubt as to their toughness. Seems like that misconception would be Russia or China's problem.

Originally posted by dollarbar
All I gotta say is God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve

Amazing contribution there chief.

Originally posted by dollarbar
All I gotta say is God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve

My name is Steve and I HATE that joke! LMAO Would much rather be called Stephen.

Originally posted by BlowinSmoke

Originally posted by Juggernog
reply to post by BlowinSmoke

 

You see, these hypocrites talk about rights but as soon as you excercise your right to an opinion that disagrees with theirs, they resort to name calling

Good catch. But, isn't that the times we live in? HYPOCRISY? The gay community will call me a "hate monger" or "homophobic"; and not even know me. Why do they need the entire world to agree with them???? And, why do they need "more rights", when they already have the same rights as everyone else???

That is the thing my friend, they don't have the same rights in Russia as straight people do. I am guessing you are either quite young or not aware of the situation but why should a man not be allowed to kiss another man just the same as he would kiss a woman?

Yes, there are people in the world who believe gays should have special treatment but that is not at all what this article is about. It is about them fining and in some cases beating gays bloody for kissing their partner in public. I do not agree at all in any circumstance that gays should be given special treatment what so ever. I honestly do not believe in the term "hate crime" and the additional criminal penalities it can carry... so its worse to beat a gay person than it is a straight person? NO.

Equal rights, ABSOLUTELY.

reply to post by DarthOej


I never said homosexuality was a mental illness that was detramental to the individuals life. Not all mental illnesses are I have struggled with anerexia for 11 years yet im still a productive member of society, all I said was by what I have seen it seems to me to be rooted in the mind as a mental abnormoality, and cinsidering only a very low population of our speices practices it that would conclude it is an abnormality.if you have a study stating otherwise please post it I would be very intrested in reading it.

To combat your statements toward padophilia and homosexuality, you can find many studies that show instances of padophilia are more commonly found when the attacker is homosexual. But in my statements I never said gays were padophiles anyway, I just said a lot of gay groups support nambla which is true.

One of the biggest problems with the homosexual propogandist is that they go soley on emotion, and opinion.

For cripes sakes people, you'd swear that a good portion of you have never heard the expression "Live and let Live" or "To each thier own". What is socially acceptable for heterosexuals should be acceptable for those that are not. There are far larger issues this country faces than whether gays have a right to marry or not. In my opinion ALL humans have the same rights. Having said that, I will concede that parades are a bit much, but to each thier own.

As far as Russia's policy is concerned, I think it is arse backwards and wrong, however they have to work out thier own social issues. I think the real human breakdown would come if some part of the world was not challenged with cranial rectal inversion, we wouldn't know what to do with ourselves.

Originally posted by bigcountry08
reply to post by DarthOej

 

I never said homosexuality was a mental illness that was detramental to the individuals life. Not all mental illnesses are I have struggled with anerexia for 11 years yet im still a productive member of society, all I said was by what I have seen it seems to me to be rooted in the mind as a mental abnormoality, and cinsidering only a very low population of our speices practices it that would conclude it is an abnormality.if you have a study stating otherwise please post it I would be very intrested in reading it.

"I myself personally believe its a mental condition , but I also don't think it can be fixed like a lot of Christians do."


What did you mean by mental condition then? Stating that it can or can't be "fixed" implies that you see it as detrimental. All mental illnesses are detrimental to the individual because that is the very definition of a mental illness. You then go on to detail the interactions you have had with homosexual people, stating that they all seemed "off in the head" or had destructive addictions. What possible purpose could that serve in the context of your post other than attempting to show that homosexuality is detrimental? My rebuttal to that would be to tell you that there is a gay couple at my job. They are the nicest, well mannered people I have ever met. They own dozens of rental properties, and contribute greatly to the local economy. My point being that you shouldn't base your opinions of people on just your own experiences. As for whether it is normal or abnormal, it does not really matter if the behavior does not affect anyone else.

To combat your statements toward padophilia and homosexuality, you can find many studies that show instances of padophilia are more commonly found when the attacker is homosexual. But in my statements I never said gays were padophiles anyway, I just said a lot of gay groups support nambla which is true.

Can you link me these studies please. I am interested in reading about the issue. I found this after doing a bit of research....Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation


The point that the article tries to make is that some molesters never developed psychologically to develop adult sexual orientations, and some have. That sexual orientation is generally not the motivation behind what these people do. They are attracted to kids, not male or female. Of course some of them are, but not the majority. It shows the faulty logic and cherry picking people that perform these studies do.

The fact that some gay groups support NAMBLA does not mean that being gay can or will lead to pedophilia. That whole argument is just more lies and fear mongering. So no you did not say that gays were pedophiles, but I do think you suggested it. At the very least you used a strawman to compare the two as justification for discriminating against it. You even threw abortion in there.

One of the biggest problems with the homosexual propogandist is that they go soley on emotion, and opinion.

As does the anti-gay zealot. That post speaks volumes.

Originally posted by Darkphoenix77
For cripes sakes people, you'd swear that a good portion of you have never heard the expression "Live and let Live" or "To each thier own". What is socially acceptable for heterosexuals should be acceptable for those that are not. There are far larger issues this country faces than whether gays have a right to marry or not. In my opinion ALL humans have the same rights. Having said that, I will concede that parades are a bit much, but to each thier own.

As far as Russia's policy is concerned, I think it is arse backwards and wrong, however they have to work out thier own social issues. I think the real human breakdown would come if some part of the world was not challenged with cranial rectal inversion, we wouldn't know what to do with ourselves.

For some people those quotes only apply when the behavior is something they agree with. If they disapprove of what you do, watch the hell out.