"Russia moves to enact anti-gay law nationwide", page 7

reply to post by Juggernog

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Ill bet he is shunned by other homosexuals,

There are both gay and straight people that do not believe in marriage.

I don't shun either for that belief.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by StareDad
"deep" would be hard to compare wouldn't it? Not that I am wanting to compare. Apparently you feel the need right now. Are we assessing who's more qualified or something?

Nah I don´t feel the need. I was just updating your thought that I only talked to immature people and should look for mature ones.

All I was implying was that there are a lot of gay people in the world and they are as diverse and eclectic as heterosexuals. One should be cautious to lump them together, it's mostly done in error......
....I don't understand peoples aversion to the word 'judgement'. Yes that is a judgement. It's apparently also a conclusion. That's unfortunate.

You are right about that but you misinterpreted what I wrote. In my language, judging and coming to a conclusion is not the same. Semantics I think but you should get what I want to say. I said, I met much and few were not on the "homo vs. hetero" trip.

are you sure you understood the wot I posted?

I did. And if you post it in that other thread I linked (it's more on topic there) I will reply to the whole post. It's just a suggestion of course.

If time is aviable, I´ll be glad to have a good discussion.

Reading comprehension please

*makes strange face* You said this right after...
because of that I say no to homosexual families and yes to homosexual marriage.
I wasn't trying to misrepresent you. You were not clear.

Ok, again, a family consists [late edit: minimum] of two generations. Just because you marry, you do not have a family.
Means, to have a family, you need a either child (the other generation) or parent. Sorry if this was not clear, I thought I had explained the term "family". What was that about the WOT and comprehension xD just a joke nothing bad intended

Originally posted by chrismarco
This is a real head scratcher...as posted on Yahoo news Russia is making it more difficult for gay individuals to either come out or show their affection in public...

‌Link

MOSCOW - Kissing his boyfriend during a protest in front of Russia's parliament earned Pavel Samburov 30 hours of detention and the equivalent of a $16 fine on a charge of "hooliganism." But if a bill that comes up for a first vote later this month becomes law, such a public kiss could be defined as illegal "homosexual propaganda" and bring a fine of up to $16,000.

Levada polls conducted last year show that almost two thirds of Russians find homosexuality "morally unacceptable and worth condemning." About half are against gay rallies and same-sex marriage; almost a third think homosexuality is the result of "a sickness or a psychological trauma," the Levada surveys show.

In the grand scheme of things we are not that advanced as a country when you look at when we started to accept homosexuality into the mainstream..I'm thinking maybe ten years ago that it really started to be accepted in the workplace and as far as the treatment of blacks in America that has picked up over the last thirty years..that's not including the start of the black movment but what I percieve to be when black americans started to get some movment around earning decent wages in this country...that is not fact but my opinion being 40 someting...but back to the main topic at hand...can't imagine getting fined for kissing someone I love or otherwise...

I'm not exactly "pro-gay," though I'm not a hater either... but I am pro-freedom.

This is rediculous.

I can't express how much things like this enrage me... who is the government to tell someone they can't kiss whoever they damn well please?

reply to post by chrismarco

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I see nothing wrong with Russia trying to make it harder for gays and lesibians to come out. They have a right as a country to establish moral doctrine as they see fit for their populace. Its not always right however they do have the option

Originally posted by Juggernog
Ill bet he is shunned by other homosexuals, just like Black Republicans are shunned by other blacks.

Oh give it a rest.

Gay people aren't some kind of scientology cult.

You know it disturbs me on a website like ATS that people would use something like this as an agenda setting item. A leader in a foreign country is legislating a society into silence. They're fining people for same sex kissing (something heterosexual people in other countries that aren't America) mainly out of political goal.

There is no special rights. All you're doing is sending a message out that you're happy this is happening because it's happening to gay people except you don't get that it's happening to straight people too. So just now it's okay because it's happening to 'us' not you. Except one day you're going to look over your shoulder for persons to defend your rights and there will be no one because you let them take everyone you disagree with. (And yes, I am annoyed when religious people are persecuted so don't even start)

Oh and side note ... can we not do the whole 'I have a gay friend' thing? I know a Asian Christian lesbian engineer ... none of it is relevant to debates about Christians, Asians, lesbians or engineers. Having a bad experience in a gay bar, a gay uncle, or knowing a bunch of gay people that went on a BDSM march doesn't make a person's argument make any more sense.

Originally posted by Kadmiel
reply to post by chrismarco

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I see nothing wrong with Russia trying to make it harder for gays and lesibians to come out.

If your government ever comes for your rights ... please remember this moment.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

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Honestly, is there some gay and lesbian public making out group somewhere I don't know about?

I've been to Europe, Australia, Asia, Indian and America ... and I've yet to see groups of people cowering in the corner from the two gay people in the corner lip locking. In fact, I haven't seen it in any more statistical variance than I would expect to. IE ... usually at parties, and usually with more heterosexual persons that gay persons unless it's a gay party ...

I mean am not talking about kisses and hugs good bye, I mean proper offensive stuff going on. Where is this happening on a regular basis????

And I don't want references to some mardi gras party, protest, or BDSM function. I mean this alleged mass agenda that exists that apparently everyone I know is in on.

And yes, in this instance it's entirely political to prevent protests its not because of some legion of gay people terrorizing the public. Though Pussy Riot came close ... they don't exactly represent your average gay person frankly.

reply to post by Pinke

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Oh give it a rest. Gay people aren't some kind of scientology cult.

You give it a rest, I never mentioned anything about a cult and I dont think I was even talking about your uncle.. was I?

reply to post by Pinke

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I mean am not talking about kisses and hugs good bye, I mean proper offensive stuff going on. Where is this happening on a regular basis????

And I don't want references to some mardi gras party, protest, or BDSM function. I mean this alleged mass agenda that exists that apparently everyone I know is in on.

There are certain ideas I hear repeated that just leave me shocked. This is whole 'flaunting the gayness' and 'shoving in your face' is one of them. So many word it as though the public is inundated with gay people who have no idea what a bedroom is. Apparently there is a willful agenda to do this from the entire gay population? O.o

I think what's happening is people are hiding behind the ambiguity of their words. It doesn't make any sense until you realize their (people that assert these kinds of arguments) version of 'proper offensive stuff' is entirely different for homosexual. The sad truth is what they view as a really offensive display is simple trivial everyday showing of affection. A mere holding of hands qualifies as a radical homosexual agenda's push at converting the world.

What I see so very often from the opposition is an unwillingness to be honest about the extent of their position.

And I wish that wasn't the case. We need honesty before we can have a good discussion.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by korathin

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People have just been psychologically conditioned

Indeed.

We must all be very cognizant of this possibility.

Whether you live in the US or Russia or anywhere.

Are you somehow exempt from the concern?

Everyone is inundated by others beliefs. Oceans of beliefs. Tradition is a strong force. That's why thinking outside the box is such a great thing.

Don't make the mistake of trying to have a sensible conversation with a homosexual or their supporters.

Ironically this approach creates a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. You assume you can't have a conversation, andso you don't have one.

edit on 22-1-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

Not to point out the obvious, but homosexuals are an ultra minority. It is simply easier to get everyone else to agree that homosexuals are inherently evil then it is to get homosexuals to agree to bug off and mind their own business instead of forcing themselves onto everyone else. You don't even really need that many people to get the process rolling. Look at sexual deviants, err homosexuals. All it took was a few hundred/thousand yelling and screaming, and helping other homosexuals into positions of influence to begin to destabilize society in order to make it more malleable to their perversions(with no regard to how that affected others, only how it benefited homosexuals). It would take less then 30,000 militant/highly vocal heterosexuals to criminalize homosexuality. Even less if an anti-gay movement where to co-opt the Hispanic immigration movements, after all, most Hispanic immigrants(legal or not), tend to be more devote Christian heterosexuals then native Christian heterosexuals.

Also, there would be open avenues of funding. From Churches, to groups that are pro-immigration,to business interests as well. Plus, you could use it as a leverage to end other social war's and replace them with the "War against homosexuality". That would nicely fill the private prisons more effectively then other non-violent criminals, and they would be able to get away with corrective drugging to make gay inmates more compliant. Imagine from a private prison corporations point of view: 5 million prospective inmates/workers(see private prison labor). That is excluding bisexuals and transgender-ed people, using Harvard's 1.7% of population figure for how many homosexuals are in the general population.

Add in inconvenient factoids that link homosexuality with pedophilia, sensationalize the sheer level of domestic violence in lesbian relationships as well as the sheer level of sexual promiscuity among homosexuals and bisexuals, and lastly add in AIDS/HIV scare to the scenario and it would be an easy thing to criminalize a segment of the population for the crime of being born gay.

I wonder how long it would take to achieve such an outcome? Maybe a study, or even a meme linking prominent homosexuals to the economic crisis as part of the gay agenda? Because historically, there is mass social regression when economic depressions happen. Before the Great Depression, homosexuality wasn't exactly tolerated but it wasn't really persecuted either. After the depression? A very serious offense. Maybe the Gay Agenda is to keep America in a state of depression until homosexuality is acceptable? Use economic tyranny to keep heterosexuals down, so after the depression is over it would all be smooth sailing with no starting over?

After all, there are more then enough rumors that the Bilderburg group is full of homosexuals. So it wouldn't be that big of a surprise if they used those positions to deny loans to companies that didn't support homosexuality, bullied heterosexuals with fear of losing their jobs for standing against homosexual immorality. Looking at homosexuals on most of the puppet media and how the "mainstream" is saturated with homosexuals(their over presence is blatant discrimination), and how homosexuals are given control over heterosexual functions(like how a homosexual used it's position of power to punish an American heterosexual in a beauty pageant for her religious beliefs).

Given the general populations propensity for shoveling paranoia down their gullets, it wouldn't be that hard of a thing to do.

reply to post by korathin

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Not to point out the obvious, but homosexuals are an ultra minority.

No need to point out LGBT is a minority indeed.

Tyranny Of The Majority

then it is to get homosexuals to agree to bug off and mind their own business instead of forcing themselves onto everyone else.

If in fact in reality that was happening I suppose it would be difficult! But again this is what I am talking about with language ambiguity. Describe "forcing themselves onto everyone". Also show it's something intrinsically true about the gay population in general. Otherwise you invite others to make blanket statements towards heterosexuals as a whole.

helping other homosexuals into positions of influence to begin to destabilize society in order to make it more malleable to their perversions

So much power and influence yet they still don't even equal rights?

It would take less then 30,000 militant/highly vocal heterosexuals to criminalize homosexuality. Even less if an anti-gay movement where to co-opt the ....devote Christian heterosexuals..

You just accused homosexuals of influencing politics without concern for others. Yet here you call upon God's holy wrath to support a militant movement to criminalize homosexuality

Add in inconvenient factoids that link homosexuality with pedophilia

No doubt any factoid to the contrary will be an inconvenience for you.

sensationalize the sheer level of domestic violence in lesbian relationships as well as the sheer level of sexual promiscuity among homosexuals and bisexuals, and lastly add in AIDS/HIV scare to the scenario and it would be an easy thing to criminalize a segment of the population for the crime of being born gay.....etc etc etc....

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or serious....

Are you really supporting the idea of militant Christians sensationalizing (lying) about things in order to sway public opinion enough to criminalize homosexuality?...

reply to post by Pinke

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Some people and countries don't accept homosexuality... Whats the problem? Not everyone around the world MUST accept homosexuality. Ahmadinejad explains this issue very well to Piers Morgan.

reply to post by DarknStormy

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Some people and countries don't accept homosexuality... Whats the problem? Not everyone around the world MUST accept homosexuality. Ahmadinejad explains this issue very well to Piers Morgan.

Some societies believe in women being punished for being rape victims. Sometimes beaten or even killed. What's the problem? Are we so sold on the idea of preserving cultural differences that we ignore moral travesty and social injustice in the World?? Why is the fact it exists in some countries a valid argument for why they should exist at all??

The 'problem' is LGBT are equal human beings and should be viewed as such, but they are not. Just like other minority groups that were met with the same social injustice. Sexism and racism (for example) shouldn't exist in any country, and we should make global strides to combat it! LGBT is no different.

What do you mean by MUST accept homosexuality? We are asking for equal social privilege and equal protection under Law. LGBT community and supporters on a whole are not asking you to do anything beyond supporting equally fair treatment.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by DarknStormy

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Some societies believe in women being put to death after being rape victims. What's the problem? Are we so sold on the idea of preserving cultural differences that we ignore moral travesty and social injustice in the World?? Why is the fact it exists in some countries a valid argument for why they should exist at all??

Don't use the women argument because that is a completely different issue and with that, our governments are happy to do business with countries who commit those crimes. The point is you cannot force your beliefs on another country. It doesn't matter whether people like it or not, you just have to accept it. Some countries do not agree with homosexuality.

The 'problem' is LGBT are equal human beings and should be viewed as such, but they are not. Just like other minority groups that were met with the same social injustice. Sexism and racism (for example) shouldn't exist in any country, and we should make global strides to combat it! LGBT is no different.

What is this global strides crap? You cannot force groups of people to do what you think is right. To them, its wrong. As much as you can put up an argument for homosexuals, the people against it can also put up an argument to why they do not accept it in their countries.

What do you mean by MUST accept homosexuality? We are asking for equal access to society and equal protection under Law. LGBT community and supporters on a whole are not asking you to do anything beyond supporting equally fair treatment.

What dont homosexuals get that everyone else does apart from marriage? You have equality in society.. Yes, by law you cannot get married but that is something that is being worked on right now.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
Don't use the women argument because that is a completely different issue

I am not using the "women" argument. The examples I gave, and LGBT, fall under the umbrella of inequality. They share commonality this way! The fact you don't see the connection is intrinsic to the reason you don't view it as an issue to begin with.

The point is you cannot force your beliefs on another country.

What do you mean by "force"?

What I would want, and what I do, is encourage people to discuss it. Communication. Try to understand the moral implications and ramifications of the actions that could be taken whether it's in support or in opposition. I believe in supporting it because I believe in equality and I believe they're persecuted. You are free to argue. I hope you would! I also hope both of us would be open enough to consider each other's views. And by "you" I mean anyone and everyone. Is that "forcing"? Is discussion frowned upon?

It doesn't matter whether people like it or not, you just have to accept it.

I vehemently, fundamentally, reject everything that sentence stands for

And I am more than willing to wager so do you! Given a different scenario.

Don't question, do what you're told.

Some countries do not agree with homosexuality.

There is a revelation O.o I already acknowledged and addressed that in my prior post.

What is this global strides crap?

We seem to differ in convictions on a foundational level. I believe in right and wrong moral practice, and it's our duty as a species to correct the wrong regardless of geographical location. You look at the word "correct" in that sentence and assume the worst and something drastic. Just like you assume the worst and something drastic when LGBT says things like "we want equality". I am talking about making peaceful strides, not militant. Active and persistent yes! It's called communication and awareness.

You cannot force groups of people to do what you think is right. To them, its wrong.

Again with the "force". So much force this force that.... I don't think many LGBT supporters think they have Jedi mind powers. The ability to directly instill beliefs. Apparently you do! Otherwise I think your concern is irrational... I mean seriously are you afraid I can force it in your head?? Are you afraid it's contagious?? Or are you afraid I will attack you with physical violence?? What constitutes "force" ??

We are not talking about "force". Anything against ones will. We are trying to show why it's wrong and why you should believe it's wrong. And subsequently vote with that understanding, and treat LGBT with dignity. That's not force, that's persuasion.

As much as you can put up an argument for homosexuals, the people against it can also put up an argument to why they do not accept it in their countries.

Excellent. That's debate. Sounds good

What dont homosexuals get that everyone else does apart from marriage?

There have been many answers already in the thread. I guess you haven't been following?

Here is one of many. In Russia they discriminate (rather harshly) against homosexuals kissing in public.

But you will of course have to specify a country for an appropriate response.

I watched your video in its entirety. Now if you will match mine in courtesy, I have one for you. Don't be put off by the title, it truly addresses what both of us have mentioned. It's quite pertinent.

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