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A Neanderthal brain volume equals or exceeds modern human dimensions (Deacon, 1994), ranging from about 1200_1750 ml, and thus on the average about 100 ml larger than modern humans (Stringer and Gamble, 1993). Holloway (1985: 320) has stated "I believe the Neanderthal brain was fully Homo, with no essential differences in its organization compared to our own."
Although there is no direct correlation between brain size and intelligence, Neanderthal brain volume certainly does not support views that argue for an evolutionary expansion of "Hominid" brains.
New Evidence Debunks 'Stupid' Neanderthal Myth
Aug. 26, 2008 — Research by UK and American scientists has struck another blow to the theory that Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) became extinct because they were less intelligent than our ancestors (Homo sapiens). The research team has shown that early stone tool technologies developed by our species, Homo sapiens, were no more efficient than those used by Neanderthals.
Published in the Journal of Human Evolution, their discovery debunks a textbook belief held by archaeologists for more than 60 years.
The team from the University of Exeter, Southern Methodist University, Texas State University, and the Think Computer Corporation, spent three years flintknapping (producing stone tools). They recreated stone tools known as 'flakes,' which were wider tools originally used by both Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, and 'blades,' a narrower stone tool later adopted by Homo sapiens. Archaeologists often use the development of stone blades and their assumed efficiency as proof of Homo sapiens' superior intellect. To test this, the team analysed the data to compare the number of tools produced, how much cutting-edge was created, the efficiency in consuming raw material and how long tools lasted.
Blades were first produced by Homo sapiens during their colonization of Europe from Africa approximately 40,000 years ago. This has traditionally been thought to be a dramatic technological advance, helping Homo sapiens out-compete, and eventually eradicate, their Stone Age cousins. Yet when the research team analysed their data there was no statistical difference between the efficiency of the two technologies. In fact, their findings showed that in some respects the flakes favoured by Neanderthals were more efficient than the blades adopted by Homo sapiens.
Many long-held beliefs suggesting why the Neanderthals went extinct have been debunked in recent years. Research has already shown that Neanderthals were as good at hunting as Homo sapiens and had no clear disadvantage in their ability to communicate. Now, these latest findings add to the growing evidence that Neanderthals were no less intelligent than our ancestors.
Metin Eren, an MA Experimental Archaeology student at the University of Exeter and lead author on the paper comments: "Our research disputes a major pillar holding up the long-held assumption that Homo sapiens were more advanced than Neanderthals. It is time for archaeologists to start searching for other reasons why Neanderthals became extinct while our ancestors survived. Technologically speaking, there is no clear advantage of one tool over the other. When we think of Neanderthals, we need to stop thinking in terms of 'stupid' or 'less advanced' and more in terms of 'different.'"
Charles W. Bryant Co-Host, Stuff You Should Know
Depending on whom you ask, the brain's size has everything or nothing to do with the intelligence of an animal. Some scientists contend that a bigger brain means a smarter animal. As evidence, they might point out that humans have larger brains than our primate cousins. That additional brain tissue could be correlated with a higher capacity to perform mental tasks associated with intelligence, like thinking, deducing and, of course, remembering the things you've learned and deduced.
There is some consistency in the animal kingdom between brain size and intelligence, but just because a rhinoceros has a larger brain than a lab rat doesn't mean it's more intelligent. It's simply a larger animal. Because of this reality, scientists have devised a brain-to-body-size ratio curve that allows them to account for overall size when measuring the brain and intelligence.
Other scientists argue that the physical size of the brain isn't what's important, but that intelligence lies in the number and firing power of the neurons. Physicist Albert Einstein is one example often used to support this hypothesis, as his brain was average in volume and weight, but more densely packed with neurons
Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
well thanks for the responses.
For everyone asking for sources, I DID provide a study done on all of the great apes and by and far the ones with larger brains were found to be more intelligent correlating the larger brain size to body size belief...
Thanks for this thread. I really enjoyed the first two pages. I must have poor reading skills, but I thought you pretty much said upfront that this was just your theory, based on years of reading and interest. Some people don't seem to know how to discuss, or even disagree, without being accusatory, demanding, and putting someone else down. I guess it may be part of our society now where everyone looks at everyone else as an opponent, or thinks they have to somehow prove they are the best.
I don't know if your theories are right, or even close to right, but I do find them very interesting. Definitely food for thought.
Originally posted by pacifier2012
Yet they no longer exist.
Does not that explain all we need to know about them?
Originally posted by SoulVisions
reply to post by Kissplash
When I say "nephilum" here, I am speaking only of the large men borne. Not the fallen angels, that had either materialized, or inhabited their (for the sake of argument) possible creations.
Here's a theory I postulate. Please read on through it. I have my own beliefs, but I feel that this would be an interesting subject to discuss related to this forum topic. Have a look.
I dunno. It's all guesswork. I could easily say that perhaps, the demons created the Neanderthals as a life-form similar to humans that didn't have the "fences" (so-to-speak). As in, they functioned like humans, but due to specific trait/genetic differences, they were easy to possess/control/influence.
Perhaps neanderthals had no spiritual defenses, even created specifically for this reason. A race of "men" imperfect compared to Creator's mankind. The demon-borne neanderthals created with the sole purpose of being controlled by spirits unquestionably, and their heirs then to inherit traits that they could use to subjugate the humans already on the earth. From this point in time then, they (the wicked "men") slept with the human women, and bore the corrupted Nephilim/Giants that then ... well, you get the idea.
Seeing as how the Demons/angels were around during the time that humans were created, they most likely knew how to exploit genes in a way to enhance strength, size, gigantism, ferocity, and other things. If something like an army of these came into your town taking your women or killing everyone they saw, it's likely many would subjugate themselves due to fear and worship them, for fear of their own lives. Perhaps even act as slaves, also.
As for why did an "advanced race" need hammers and the like.. Ten thousand years from now, archeologists will find much the same regarding us, also. Stone/steel tool, and ruins of buildings, possibly just stone foundations... anything that erosion and the weather hasn't destroyed. Everything else, like electronics, will have rusted away centuries prior.
As for that article however, the notes about the water vapor layer above the earth, along with the scriptural reference to God separating the atmosphere with "the water above" and "the water below," it makes a lot of sense as to how the great historical deluge came about. (Most of this information was found in the footnotes of his report.)
This article link explains why carbon dating material more than 10,000 years old, does not really work anymore.
In depth, it goes over what C12 and C14 carbon saturation means, and how it ends up showing that neanderthals were not some 100,000 years old. Rather, they were shown to exist during a time after man's creation, but prior to the great historical worldwide deluge.
I HIGHLY recommend reading this report. There are many excellent findings backed by historical records, bible scriptures, and if that doesn't interest you, then science and archeological finds, themselves.
Again, it is an amazingly well-written article.edit on 23-1-2013 by SoulVisions because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by fleabit
They were smart enough to adapt and survive where we could not and employed many advanced tactics for survival as well as developed as complex tools as us, and in some cases more advanced.
They actually mined the flint they used. they didnt just pick it up and smash it without care.
They studied the material and chose where to hit it so it would break the way they wanted. We didnt really do that. Thats why we now have to say that in some cases their flint tools were better than ours.
reply to post by zedVSzardoz
edit on 23-1-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)
1st question: Do you think it's possible that Cro-magnons & Neanderthals were Homo-Sapien's attempt at cloning? I mean if there was a high advanced human (homo-sapien) civilization might they have advanced to a point where they tried cloning or creating a superior species...or perhaps it was for a more diabolical reason like using cro-magnons and/or neanderthals for mining gold?
2nd question: Do orangutans and chimpanzees "realize and recognize" that humans look a lot like them? Head, eyes, nose, ears, mouth, etc. What's holding them back from being as smart as us...smaller brains, missing DNA?
3rd question: As an advanced civilization WE created a DOOMSDAY SEED VAULT and placed it in a frigid and desolate area to withstand some global extinction-like event. Wouldn't an advanced civilization from ancient times have prepared for catastrophe on a global scale and construct their own DOOMSDAY SEED/KNOWLEDGE VAULT? Maybe they did and we just haven't found it yet? Maybe it's buried under permafrost. They would've had to construct their vault in a place deemed survivable geologically.
Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by seamus
Yeah this has always fascinated me.
The structures off of Cuba are not entirely explained either. The networks of what seem like roads and the now (I think) debunked pyramid complex. I have read theories that during the first ice age much of the land around the Caribbean was connected to south America much like we know how the UK was connected to Europe around the same time.
The Olmec have been stated by archeologists NATIVE to area to have been constructing as far back as 5000 BC.
The fact that Roman and Greek ports and parts cities have eluded us even up to now is telling to say the least of how little we look to the oceans for clues of lost structures and civilizations that could have had their entirety of construction efforts and so their very existence lost to us.
IMO we have only just begun using satellites to track structures previously unknown of to us in dense jungles. We have not even seen everything above water level. What remains below will arguably be OLDER since the timeline for rising water lines goes back into the remote past where we dont have the luxury of written history or oral tradition.
The land masses lost to southern India have just begun to reveal their treasures, and we are facing the increasing reality that our "timeline" is far from accurate. It is an estimation based on available data.
Even written history from antiquity does not clarify when a leader or conquerors changed history to his version as was done in Egypt under various rulers, or in south America even before the Spanish arrived.
India and its remote past IMO is such a puzzle for its contributions to the world that I dont even know where to begin. There are linguists and scholars that have argued that even ancient Chinese was derived from a form Sanskrit so what a extremely interesting and ancient culture like that of ancient India has to offer is truly a treasure trove that goes unnoticed really.
Taking into account things like the similarity of the I-ching (book of changes) to other works like those of the Cabala for example that MUST have been influenced by other unknown traditions we are left with SO MANY more questions than answers when trying to say this came from that or these people did or did not do such and such.
That is why I say that we must be as skeptical of "accepted" history and archeology as we are of other nonsensical ideas and explanations.
I need to catch up on the Mahatma habra and other such works. it has been a while since I just skimmed them. maybe later I will do another comparison with them and perhaps Chinese myth I am more familiar with to see if any mention of races of man show up...
Archaeologists have recreated the stone tools made by Neanderthals, and found them to be as useful and efficient as those made by the earliest Homo sapiens, who survived while the Neanderthal line died off. The new research is one of many recent studies claiming that Neanderthals weren’t just dumb brutes that were out-competed by early humans. Says lead researcher Metin Eren: “When we think of Neanderthals we need to stop thinking in terms of ‘stupid’ or ‘less advanced’ and more in terms of ‘different’”
Disc flakes, Eren’s team discovered, waste less rock, suffer fewer breaks and have more cutting edge for their mass compared with straight blades. “We found that with every respect the Neanderthal technology was just as efficient, if not slightly more efficient, than modern Homo sapiens blade technology,” he says. “This was a very strong indication that Neanderthals did not go extinct because of any cognitive inferiority”
A hyperbaric chamber uses pumps and valves to recreate the greater air pressure experienced by divers under water. Pure oxygen or other saturated gas mixtures may also be pumped into a hyperbaric chamber for medical purposes.
The normal atmospheric condition we all experience on dry land is called normobaric pressure. When divers go under the surface, the pressure of the water and air above them increases with depth. This additional pressure causes several changes in the way a human body processes blood gases like oxygen and nitrogen.
If a diver surfaces too quickly, the gases in the blood can convert to bubbles and cause a very dangerous situation called the bends, or decompression sickness. A hyperbaric chamber, sometimes called a decompression chamber, can return a diver to the same depth and pressure experienced during the actual dive. This procedure in the hyperbaric chamber allows the nitrogen in the bubbles to escape naturally, leaving only absorbable oxygen.
A hyperbaric chamber's usefulness is not limited to decompression sickness. Certain diseases, such as diabetes or anemia, do not allow blood cells to become supersaturated with oxygen at normal atmospheric pressure. By placing the patient in a hyperbaric chamber and administering pure oxygen, doctors can increase the amount of oxygen cells carried off through the bloodstream. Patients suffering from gas gangrene or flesh-eating bacterial infections can also benefit from the hyperbaric chamber's increased atmospheric pressure.
In the United States, hyperbaric chamber treatments are recognized as safe and effective for a handful of medical conditions. European and Scandinavian countries have approved a wider use of the hyperbaric chamber, especially when used in conjunction with oxygen therapies. Treatment in a commercial hyperbaric chamber can be fairly expensive, and some divers with compression sickness can require dozens of treatments. Medical professionals are still debating any other benefits derived from hyperbaric chamber treatments, including reduced effects of aging and improved mental stamina. There are companies worldwide which can provide private hyperbaric chamber models for home use.
Dr. Baugh & the Pre-Flood Environment - 03/31/01
Director of the Creation Evidence Museum in Glen Rose, Texas, Dr. Carl Baugh has invented and patented a 'Hyperbaric Biosphere' chamber to test Biblical claims regarding pre-flood atmosphere and magnetic conditions based on Genesis.
Genesis states that life on earth was created 'perfect' and designed to live forever. It also states that after the fall of man, all elements of which everything is made, were cursed. Genesis then records the gradual degeneration of the whole of creation until the flood of Noah followed by an increasing rate of degeneration as time progressed.
If the dates and years reported use the same standards we do in modern times, then there is an overlapping of pre-flood humans with that of post-flood survivors where the pre-flood humans lived many more years.
The average age of man prior to the flood was approximately 920 years, after the flood, mans lifespan declined by 250 years until the time of Christ when lifespans averaged 70 years. Tests indicate simulation of a pre-flood environment would produce conditions of increased longevity, cellular growth and a change in molecular structures.
Our friend the late David Fasold, discoverer of the Ark of Noah in Turkey provided information which was converted to various files on the KeelyNet BBS. One of these files dealt with the declining ages of the Patriarchs before and after the flood. The following information is extracted from the file NOAHARK1.ASC posted on October 29, 1990.
Here is a list showing the decline in longevity from pre-Flood patriarchs through the post-Flood generation, finally reaching the life expectancy of today. The tradition of longevity in ancient man is recorded by the following historians:
Dr. Baugh's experiments with his special hyperbaric biosphere have produced fascinating results that indicate potential methods to heal and/or rejuvenate people today. NASA has even requested Dr. Baugh's research and discoveries to determine their applicability to the space program.
The environment in which we live with plants and other animals has changed since biological systems first appeared. The composition of the air we breathe has continued to change. For example, there is reason to believe that the concentration of oxygen found within the air has decreased over time.
The climate, including temperature, humidity, rainfall, snowfall, and the like has also been changing. It is further theorized that other important changes in the environment of the earth over time have been the marked decrease in atmospheric pressure, a decrease in the concentration of carbon dioxide in the earth's atmosphere, changes in the strength and orientation of the earth's magnetic field, and the change in the intensity and characteristics of the light radiation to which we are exposed. Furthermore, sounds of nature such as singing birds have become increasingly difficult to encounter due to a general decrease in the population of songbirds.
Many of the above and other changes are a natural result of the maturing of the earth. Other changes to the earth's environment are caused by purely natural events--volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tidal waves, glaciers, and the like alter the earth itself and the surrounding atmosphere. Other changes to the earth and its atmosphere are due entirely to man.
Pollution, overpopulation, overdevelopment, overutilization of natural resources, fishing, hunting, and farming have all altered our world. As the human population continues to increase, the pace at which these changes occur will inevitably increase.
These changes in the earth and the surrounding environment have had a detrimental impact on plants and animals including man. Certain plants and animals have vanished from the earth, unable to adapt to the changed earth. Many of the remaining varieties of plants and animals have found it difficult to thrive.
The fruits and vegetables of trees and plants have lost taste and nutritional value. Animals, including humans, are increasingly disease stricken, weak, and otherwise unhealthy. Humans seem to have lost their general sense of well being, leading to an increase in depression, suicides, crime, violence, sickness, and other social and physical ailments and have become increasingly lethargic with shortened attention spans.
The increasing physical and mental ailments of humans has led to a constant search for new and improved pharmaceuticals to combat these sicknesses. As one example, scientists are constantly searching the far reaches of the planet for naturally occurring antiviral and antibiotic substances.
The Pre-flood Atmosphere
There is evidence that the atmosphere enveloping the early earth was very different than it is today. At one time the entire earth enjoyed a warm tropical environment and there was enhanced oxygen in the atmosphere. Organisms grew larger and lived longer as a result.
Many creationists attribute this to a water vapor canopy that was created by God on the second day, the “waters above the firmament” (Genesis 1:7).
This theory holds that a “vast blanket of invisible water vapor…productive of a marvelous greenhouse effect which maintained mild temperatures from pole to pole, thus preventing air-mass circulation and the resultant rainfall (Genesis 2:5). It would certainly have had the further effect of efficiently filtering harmful radiation from space, markedly reducing the rate of somatic mutations in living cells, and, as a consequence, drastically decreasing the rate of aging and death.”(Morris, Henry, Scientific Creationism,1984, p. 211.)
Citing evidence of denser atmosphere in the past, Morris postulates that this vapor layer could have dramatically increased the atmospheric pressure on the surface of the early earth, again contributing to a healthier environment (like a natural hyperbaric chamber). “The higher pressure could have been caused by an extensive blanket of water vapor in the upper atmosphere…It is difficult to imagine any other cause for the higher pressure. Indeed, this could perhaps explain how an ungainly pterosaur with stubby wings could fly.” Later the canopy would have collapsed in the form of rain (the “windows of heaven” in Genesis 7:11), contributing to the Flood water, and resulting in the dramatic drop-off in longevity after the deluge.
Genesis 9 tells how Noah planted a vineyard after the flood and became drunk from the fruit of it. This is an aberration in the life of this godly man. Some have suggested that Noah did not know his grape juice would ferment so quickly or so extensively in the post-flood atmosphere. Or perhaps the reduced atmospheric pressure made it harder for him to “hold his drink.” While this is only speculation, it would help explain this curious situation.
Some creationists emphasize other factors that may have caused the worldwide temperate conditions that existed before the Flood. They stress the evidence of far greater concentrations of carbon dioxide levels in the past and point out that the earth’s magnetic field was far stronger than today. This could have acted as the shield for cosmic radiation and produced the healthier environment. (Humphreys, Russel D., Starlight and Time, 1995, p. 63.) John Baumgardner of Los Alamos has suggested that the atmosphere surrounding the original earth was far thicker than it is today and that the exploding of the fountains of the great deep during the initial stages of the
Genesis Flood stripped some of this atmosphere away. Some Bible scholars cite the language of the Psalm 148:4 as evidence against a vapor canopy. If the canopy had collapsed during the flood, they reason, why does the Psalmist still reference the waters above the firmament? But this poetic allusion could hark back to the original creation, or it could make reference to waters God expanded out into deep space as part of creation, or it could refer to some of the original water vapor (left over from the canopy) still in the outer reaches of our atmosphere.