a former Evangelical "born again" explains why Protestantism isn't true

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by colbe

 

You have no Scripture teaching God to be three persons. All we have is Scriptures that say one God. Therefore it is incorrect to assume a trinity is in that Scripture and that it is not simply one God working in three roles.

Go back to the Scripture verses given. It is you who reject their interpretation. The Apostles have shared, passed down the teachings of Christ. It is only non-Christian sects who deny the Trinity. Stop following one. And for that matter, please quit with Martin Luther's Bible Alone heresy. Scripture is not Christian's authority, the Church is...

There is more to God's revelation than His written Word. All through this thread you have been posting particular quotes of the early Church Fathers. You give their words your own meaning but quoting them, you are quoting Tradition, the oral teachings passed down.


God bless you,

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen
They clearly, no interpretation needed, speak of Father and Son being two separate persons. That violates your "oneness".

I saw mention of Father and Son, but no mention of God being separate persons.

Well, hooray for you -- I wouldn't expect you to see it, in spite of the fact that everyone else outside of your cult sees it.
When a normal person sees "Joe was standing over there, and Tom shouted down from the window above 'Hey, Joe'" their conclusion is that Joe and Tom are two separate persons. Similarly, when they see "Jesus came up out of the water, the spirit descended on him and a voice from heaven said 'this is my son, with whom I am well pleased'" they conclude that Jesus and voice are two separate persons.

Almost every book of the New Testament has the Father, Son and Holy Spirit named as separate persons. You claim your whole theology on four instances of the Book of Acts, even though none of those four say anything about the Trinity, they just speak of Jesus alone.

History is against you, theology is against you and scripture is against you.

But the real thing that's against you is Christ himself, because your cult treats salvation exactly like magic. You have to say these exact words. This exact series of events has to take place. You have to react in this exact way. And if any of those things isn't exactly the way it's supposed to be, then it doesn't work.

That's magic, that's not salvation, and that kind of nitpicky "if you mess up the details, you're doomed" mentality is one of the chief things that Christ preached against when speaking of the Pharisees. Yet that's the load of bunk that your cult leader has sold you on. Good luck with it.

Patripassianism

Patripassianism is the claim that the Father suffered, which isn't what I said.

adjensen,

The underlined, you explained very simply. Anyone could get it (understand), thanks.



may the Two Hearts J+M keep you safe,


colbe

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen

You're delusional if you think that the scene depicted in Jesus' baptism regards "titles", as they are clearly separate persons -- a "title" doesn't have two separate physical locations, voices and presences.

Titles can if they belong to an all powerful, everywhere present God.

Originally posted by adjensen

But we've long since determined that you don't have a handle on reality, so we'll move along.

The reality is that there is no teaching of God being a trinity until around 170, by Tertullian, who was kicked out of the Church for heresy.

Originally posted by adjensen

As usual, that doesn't answer a direct question -- is the name of God, creator of the universe, Old Testament God of the Israelites, and so on, the English word "Jesus". Such that, if you "called on the name of the Lord", and the name you used wasn't "Jesus" (the English form, not the Greek Ἰησοῦς or the Hebrew ישוע) then you are not saved?

"Jesus" is the English spelling of the Hebrew name "Yehshas". Both are pronounced the way we pronounce "Jesus". The same for the Greek "Iesous".

truejew,

Do not follow some crazy sect begun a couple of years ago. The Archangel Gabriel gave the name of Our Lord to Mary at the Annunciation, Jesus means....God saves. Only God can say I AM. Jesus did, read Scripture.

Originally posted by IsidoreOfSeville
Adj, et, al,

I think we have a case of "pearls before swine" here when it comes to presenting evidence to Truejew. I would recommend to abandon this lost cause. Adj, as you yourself said, at this point only God can change his heart and mind regarding these issues. I say let Him work. .

I'd recommend we return the comments back to the OP's original statement, and perhaps open a new thread regarding the Blessed Trinity.

Just my $.02.

Yes, we should stop giving evidence and continue to pray for truejew's conversion. God's grace will work on him. Sort of related, I think Romney's suffering in losing to awful BHO will help him to convert at the time of the Great Warning.

I didn't vote for either one of them last November.

Originally posted by colbe

God gave the gift to interpret Holy Scripture to the Church NOT to each person individually, that's a heresy
called private interpretation of Scripture.

I am interpreting Scripture the same way that the true Church does. Your Catholic Church does not go back to the apostles as you claim.

Originally posted by colbe

You have no authority to interpret Scripture.

As an ordained minister in the five-fold ministry, I do.

Originally posted by colbe

Your error of misinterpreting Scripture so you can reject Jesus is fully God and fully man, always was, always will be.

Jesus is fully God and fully man, but while He was in the flesh, He was in the role of a man.

Originally posted by colbe
reply to post by colbe

 

Go back to the Scripture verses given. It is you who reject their interpretation. The Apostles have shared, passed down the teachings of Christ. It is only non-Christian sects who deny the Trinity. Stop following one. And for that matter, please quit with Martin Luther's Bible Alone heresy. Scripture is not Christian's authority, the Church is...

There is more to God's revelation than His written Word. All through this thread you have been posting particular quotes of the early Church Fathers. You give their words your own meaning but quoting them, you are quoting Tradition, the oral teachings passed down.


God bless you,

Only the apostles have authority to write a doctrine such as the trinity. They did not do so. The Bible is the only writings that we have from them.

Originally posted by colbe

Do not follow some crazy sect begun a couple of years ago.

We began with the apostles.

Originally posted by colbe

The Archangel Gabriel gave the name of Our Lord to Mary at the Annunciation, Jesus means....God saves. Only God can say I AM. Jesus did, read Scripture.

Jesus means EhJeh is salvation. EhJeh is often translated as I Am. I am not disagreeing with anything Jesus said. I'm not sure where you got that idea.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen

Yeah, whatever. You're nuts. Omnipotence can be used to explain anything, that doesn't mean it should be.

The apostles did not teach your three gods/persons doctrine.

How do you know that? Were you there?

As I've repeatedly said, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are clearly three distinct persons, but one God. The Doctrine of the Trinity was developed to explain that, not the other way around.

And stop lying, there is NOTHING in the Doctrine of the Trinity that claims there are three gods.

Either way, he did not teach trinitarianism until after he left/was kicked out.

That isn't true, either. And I gave you four quotes from people who died prior to Tertullian that are Trinitarian.

There is only one name given by which we must be saved.

Further evidence of your "salvation by works alone", as well as your adherence to what amounts to magical spells and rituals.

By the way, the thief that was crucified with Jesus, who was told that he was saved, when was he "baptized in the name of Jesus"?

Saying false things about me is not a fruit of the Spirit.

Then explain how the Doctrine of the Trinity explicitly teaches that there are three gods, as you keep claiming. Failure to do so is proof that you're a liar.

Originally posted by colbe
Do not follow some crazy sect begun a couple of years ago.

That's exactly correct -- I've spent a fair amount of time researching this "Pentecostal Oneness" non-Christian sect, and Truejew's bunch are fringe, even for them.

The Oneness thing is just the latest version of a heresy that dates back to the Third Century (contrary to TJ's claims that it goes back to the Apostles,) Sabellianism. This go around it started in the early 1900s as a breakaway from Pentecostalism (which is a Christian charismatic faith) and is more popular in the third world more than around here.

Gary Reckart (TJ's pastor) is cut from a slightly different cloth, though, because of his bizarre beliefs regarding words. For example, he misspells the name "Jeremiah" because he thinks that there's the name of a moon god or something in there if you spell it that way. According to this article from a critic, he doesn't let people say "Alleluia", because that apparently means "Hail Lucifer". And, as we've seen, the name of God (which isn't written out in the Bible, because you're not supposed to write out the name of God) is "Jesus".

Reckart got a mention on cult deprogrammer Rick Ross' "Flaming Websites" page for a rant against Ross' characterization of the United Pentecostal Church International, even though Reckart now criticizes the UPCI as being "back sliders". In his own church, no longer associated with the UPCI, Reckart has assigned himself the titles Bishop, Doctor and Cohen (a Jewish title.)

So... angry and harshly critical leader... claims of being "the true church"... statements that unless you follow the leader's exact teaching, down to the letter (literally, lol) you're condemned... dismissal of anyone who is critical... delusions of grandeur...

That's not a sect, that's a cult.

Originally posted by adjensen

How do you know that? Were you there?

We have their writings.

Originally posted by adjensen

As I've repeatedly said, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are clearly three distinct persons, but one God.

The trinity is a God with multiple personality disorder, until you separate them into three gods to explain things like the baptism of Jesus.

Originally posted by adjensen

The Doctrine of the Trinity was developed to explain that, not the other way around.

Yes, it was developed by men who were perverted by Greek philosophy, to explain God. It was not revealed by God. God only says He is one and there is none beside Him.

Originally posted by adjensen

And stop lying, there is NOTHING in the Doctrine of the Trinity that claims there are three gods.

You called them three separate entities.

Originally posted by adjensen

That isn't true, either.

Yes, it is.

Originally posted by adjensen

And I gave you four quotes from people who died prior to Tertullian that are Trinitarian.

None of them used the word trinity or called God "three persons".

Originally posted by adjensen

Further evidence of your "salvation by works alone", as well as your adherence to what amounts to magical spells and rituals.

Acts 4:12-13 (KJV)
12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Originally posted by adjensen

By the way, the thief that was crucified with Jesus, who was told that he was saved, when was he "baptized in the name of Jesus"?

The thief died before the plan of salvation was given by the apostles.

Originally posted by adjensen

Then explain how the Doctrine of the Trinity explicitly teaches that there are three gods, as you keep claiming. Failure to do so is proof that you're a liar.

You call them three separate entities, they each have their own personality, each can be in a separate location. They are three gods.

Originally posted by adjensen

That's exactly correct -- I've spent a fair amount of time researching this "Pentecostal Oneness" non-Christian sect, and Truejew's bunch are fringe, even for them.

The Oneness thing is just the latest version of a heresy that dates back to the Third Century (contrary to TJ's claims that it goes back to the Apostles,) Sabellianism. This go around it started in the early 1900s as a breakaway from Pentecostalism (which is a Christian charismatic faith) and is more popular in the third world more than around here.

Gary Reckart (TJ's pastor) is cut from a slightly different cloth, though, because of his bizarre beliefs regarding words. For example, he misspells the name "Jeremiah" because he thinks that there's the name of a moon god or something in there if you spell it that way. According to this article from a critic, he doesn't let people say "Alleluia", because that apparently means "Hail Lucifer". And, as we've seen, the name of God (which isn't written out in the Bible, because you're not supposed to write out the name of God) is "Jesus".

Reckart got a mention on cult deprogrammer Rick Ross' "Flaming Websites" page for a rant against Ross' characterization of the United Pentecostal Church International, even though Reckart now criticizes the UPCI as being "back sliders". In his own church, no longer associated with the UPCI, Reckart has assigned himself the titles Bishop, Doctor and Cohen (a Jewish title.)

So... angry and harshly critical leader... claims of being "the true church"... statements that unless you follow the leader's exact teaching, down to the letter (literally, lol) you're condemned... dismissal of anyone who is critical... delusions of grandeur...

That's not a sect, that's a cult.

edit on 29-1-2013 by adjensen because: (no reason given)

There are several errors within your post, however I am short on time at the moment. I will point out that Pastor Reckart is not my Pastor as you say. Also Pastor Reckart's "rant" against Rick Ross, was actually a warning written to those of the Apostolic faith to avoid him due to his history of kidnapping and other crimes.

The name of God was revealed to Moses by God and is written in Scripture. That name is EhJeh. The Hebrew name Jehshas (pronounced as Jesus) means Jeh (short for EhJeh) is salvation.

Originally posted by truejew
Your Catholic Church does not go back to the apostles as you claim.

Like it or not .. and clearly you don't ... the Catholic church does indeed have an unbroken chain back to the Apostles. For them to claim it, is historically accurate.

Originally posted by truejew
Incorrect. Your God is limited to being in three places at a time. If God would manifest Himself as the burning bush at the same time, you would have to add a fourth person to explain it. You put limits on God.

That's absurd. Who told you that bunk?

Seriously dude .. the Catholic church puts NO LIMITS on God. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit all omnipotent. Three in one .. like the clover leaf is three leaves and yet one. No limits.

Read and learn - Catechism of the Catholic Church - the Omnipotence of God

That isn't true, either.

Yes, it is.

Fine, I'll make this short. Prove that Tertullian didn't write anything about the Trinity until after he left the church (as Montanism was a movement within the church, simply saying that he showed Montanistic influences doesn't mean he wasn't still a member.)

Originally posted by adjensen

Then explain how the Doctrine of the Trinity explicitly teaches that there are three gods, as you keep claiming. Failure to do so is proof that you're a liar.

You call them three separate entities, they each have their own personality, each can be in a separate location. They are three gods.

That doesn't answer the question -- it is merely your re-interpretation of the Doctrine, and demonstrates that you're lying about it, since you didn't write the Doctrine and your interpretation of it is irrelevant.

What a fine thread. It seems that Catholic converts are quite literally everywhere these days. I know of a few that have left the Church as well, but the influx is truly stunning.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by colbe
Do not follow some crazy sect begun a couple of years ago.

That's exactly correct -- I've spent a fair amount of time researching this "Pentecostal Oneness" non-Christian sect, and Truejew's bunch are fringe, even for them.

The Oneness thing is just the latest version of a heresy that dates back to the Third Century (contrary to TJ's claims that it goes back to the Apostles,) Sabellianism. This go around it started in the early 1900s as a breakaway from Pentecostalism (which is a Christian charismatic faith) and is more popular in the third world more than around here.

Gary Reckart (TJ's pastor) is cut from a slightly different cloth, though, because of his bizarre beliefs regarding words. For example, he misspells the name "Jeremiah" because he thinks that there's the name of a moon god or something in there if you spell it that way. According to this article from a critic, he doesn't let people say "Alleluia", because that apparently means "Hail Lucifer". And, as we've seen, the name of God (which isn't written out in the Bible, because you're not supposed to write out the name of God) is "Jesus".

Reckart got a mention on cult deprogrammer Rick Ross' "Flaming Websites" page for a rant against Ross' characterization of the United Pentecostal Church International, even though Reckart now criticizes the UPCI as being "back sliders". In his own church, no longer associated with the UPCI, Reckart has assigned himself the titles Bishop, Doctor and Cohen (a Jewish title.)

So... angry and harshly critical leader... claims of being "the true church"... statements that unless you follow the leader's exact teaching, down to the letter (literally, lol) you're condemned... dismissal of anyone who is critical... delusions of grandeur...

That's not a sect, that's a cult.

edit on 29-1-2013 by adjensen because: (no reason given)

Using Jewish terms, explains TJ's avatar name. It's so beyond stupid, the silly Protestant pretend to be Jewish sects like Messianics. We're not in the Old Covenant, Jesus came to make things new, this is the New Covenant.

It sounds in this case, it is a "cult", when the leader is way, way, out there. You wonder, how can it be charm, what exactly does he do to convince people to come along>>? I'll check the link.

We all love you truejew. The Protestant evangelical historian in the OP, David Anders states it, All authority was given to Christ by the Father and Jesus passed His authority on to the Apostles. Only Catholicism has Apostolic Succession,

This is what happens to Protestants and most all Protestant pastors who convert to Roman Catholicism. They convert realizing they have/had no authority. They notice their fellow minister down the street is preaching something different.

colbe

Originally posted by AvisNigra
What a fine thread. It seems that Catholic converts are quite literally everywhere these days. I know of a few that have left the Church as well, but the influx is truly stunning.

AvisN, hello,

It's so true, People are leaving certain Protestant denominations in great numbers because of their acceptance of obvious grave sin. Here's a man who left Protestantism, notice, he was first a Methodist. I think most all Methodists will say "yes" to God, they will convert when the Great Warning happens.

Dave Armstrong (1958-...) was raised Methodist, went on to Evangelicalism, to the Jesus Movement, to Messianic Judaism and finally, to the faith, Dave became Roman Catholic. He has written * 150 reasons why I am Catholic. * Dave has a marvelous way of expressing himself. Here are five of the reasons, to me, these are major and they're only five out of 150.

Everyone in Heaven is Roman Catholic so please, come along, the most Holy Eucharist is true.

~ ~ ~

21. Many Protestants take a dim view towards Christian history in general, esp. the years from 313 (Constantine's conversion) to 1517 (Luther's arrival). This ignorance and hostility to Catholic Tradition leads to theological relativism, anti-Catholicism, and a constant, unnecessary process of "reinventing the wheel."

22. Protestantism from its inception was anti-Catholic, and remains so to this day (esp. evangelicalism). This is obviously wrong and unbiblical if Catholicism is indeed Christian (if it isn't, then - logically - neither is Protestantism, which inherited the bulk of its theology from Catholicism). The Catholic Church, on the other hand, is not anti-Protestant.

23. The Catholic Church accepts the authority of the great Ecumenical Councils (see, e.g., Acts 15) which defined and developed Christian doctrine (much of which Protestantism also accepts).

24. Most Protestants do not have bishops, a Christian office which is biblical (1 Tim 3:1-2) and which has existed from the earliest Christian history and Tradition.

25. Protestantism has no way of settling doctrinal issues definitively. At best, the individual Protestant can only take a head count of how many Protestant scholars, commentators, etc. take such-and-such a view on Doctrine X, Y, or Z. There is no unified Protestant Tradition.

www.ourcatholicfaith.org...

Originally posted by colbe
Everyone in Heaven is Roman Catholic

I would really caution against this statement -- even the Catechism says that this isn't true.

When I was a Protestant, this sort of line was what really turned me away from the Catholic church. It wasn't until I understood that the church didn't really teach that that I was open to learning more about the church, and which eventually resulted in my conversion.

Just a quick off topic post... Received confirmation that I do not have cancer.

Originally posted by truejew
Just a quick off topic post... Received confirmation that I do not have cancer.

Thank God!

That is excellent news!!

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Like it or not .. and clearly you don't ... the Catholic church does indeed have an unbroken chain back to the Apostles. For them to claim it, is historically accurate.

Not true. The early Christian writers not only did not write about the trinity doctrine, but also taught quartodecimanism and Patripassianism, two more doctrines condemned by the Catholic Church. Plus, the apostles did not have a one person leader such as the pope.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Seriously dude .. the Catholic church puts NO LIMITS on God. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit all omnipotent. Three in one .. like the clover leaf is three leaves and yet one. No limits.

The trinity does limit God to the number three. In addition the title "God the Son" is not Biblical.