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SEAL Team Six Helicopter Crash: Let’s Debunk a Myth….

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posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 11:53 AM
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Howdy ATS!

For some this topic of discussion starts on May 1st 2001 during the operation to kill Al-Qa’ida leader in Osama Bin Laden, when some two dozen members of Seal Team Six took part in Operation Neptune Spear in Abbottabad, Pakistan the result one very dead bad guy. But that’s not what this thread is about lets fast forward a months and get started.

August 6 2011 38 men packed into a CH-47 Chinook, call sign, “Extortion 17” and took off heading into Wardak Province of Afghanistan about 22 off these men were from Naval Special Warfare command and 15 came from Seal Team Six (LINK). The exact nature of their mission still remains unclear however according to the Wall Street Journal they were heading to provide reinforcement support for a group of US Army Rangers. During the flight a Taliban militant launched a RPG at the helicopter causing it to crash killing everyone on board.



On board the Chinook helicopter there were 30 Americans -- including 22 SEALs -- as well as eight Afghans and a dog trained specifically for special operations.

Most of the 22 SEALs were part of SEAL Team 6, the heroic unit that carried out the raid on Osama Bin Laden's compound in May, though none of those who actually took part in that raid were believed to be on the helicopter.

ABC News

At least that is the official story…..

Ever since that crash it has prompted suspicion amongst conspiracy theorists. There are two main schools of thought that conspiracy theorists take. There are those who take the view that the raid on the Bin Laden compound never took part or that the raid did take part however the target was not Bin Laden and that this helicopter crash was staged to cover up their death. Then there is a second conspiracy theory promoted by Alex Jones, based on a dubious source that goes by the sexy pseudonym “Colonel Sixx” who claims that the crash was actually used as a cover up for Seals killed during Operation Neptune Spear when a stealth Blackhawk “blew up” to quote them.

Both of these conspiracies might seem plausible at first, especially if one has a limited knowledge of Seal Team Six. However both of these conspiracy theories can be quite easily debunked as both make the presumption that the Seals who were killed on the helicopter where the same ones who took part in the Bin Laden raid (assassination), this presumption is wrong.

The first mistake that people make when they entertain these conspiracies is that they ignorantly believe that Seal Team Six is like a soccer team. They assume that Seal Team Six, is made up X number of men and all other Seal Teams are made up the same number of men, they think that the 24 members of Seal Team Six is Seal Team Six.

This is utterly rubbish, Seal Team Six is not actually even a Seal team its real name is the United States Naval Special Warfare Development Group or DEVGRU if you’re feeling lazy. It is essentially a separate unit form the US Navy SEALS, DEVGRU is considered a “tier one” Special Forces asset, the US Navy Seals are “Tier two”. Yes DEVGRU does recruit directly from the Navy Seals but you would be highly mistaken to assume that SEAL Team three for example has the same role and capabilities as Seal Team Six, DEVGRU. Furthermore DEVGRU is not a small team, it’s really quite large, how large exactly is classified but rumours I have read put it at between 300-500. It is structured into squadrons or teams, they are Red, Blue, Gold and Silver in addition to this there is also a Black Squadron for reconnaissance.

Now that very quick and dirty description of a very complex Special Forces unit might not be very in depth but it’s enough for us to start to debunk these conspiracies that the helicopter crash was staged in some way to cover up some part of the Bin Laden raid as it’s important to know who took part in what.

So to get to the point, during operation Neptune Spear the members of DEVGRU who took part where all handpicked form Red Squadron. There is one possible exception, in the book “no easy day” by Mark Owen he does describe how one member not form Red Squadron was picked because of his linguistic abilities however what squadron he was from is not made clear. In anycase according to the Navy Times




The SEALs who assaulted Osama bin Laden’s compound were drawn from Naval Special Warfare Development Group’s Red Squadron, according to several sources in the special operations community.


With that in mind then one would expect the people who were killed on the helicopter crash came from the same Squadron, after all If they say came from Gold Squadron then it wouldn’t make for a very good cover up. Well actually that’s what happened all the guys on that Chinook came from Gold Squadron, again form the Navy Times



Of the 22 NSW members killed, 17 were SEALs and five were direct support personnel, according to the source in the NSW community. Two of the SEALs were from a West Coast SEAL unit, but the others were from Gold Squadron of Naval Special Warfare Development Group, or DevGru, sometimes known as SEAL Team 6, said the NSW source


To make this clear for you all, just encase you don't get the punch line

Red Squadron= Operation Neptune Spear May 1 2011

Gold Squadron = Chinook helicopter crash August 6 2011 (15 DEVGRU dead)

So different Squadrons different guys none of the men that took part in the raid to kill Bin Laden were on that helicopter. In other words the government didn’t kill those men on the helicopter to cover up anything relating to operation Neptune Spear because the guys on that helicopter had nothing to do with the raid that killed Bin Laden.

If this isn’t enough for you then I would also like to point out that there is no literature that supports the idea that any of the men on that helicopter took part in the Bin Laden raid and they all headed back to the states shortly afterword’s so where not even in Afghanistan when the operation took part also although 22 members of NSW where on that helicopter only 15 were members of DEVGRU so why did they not kill the other 9 members who took part in the Bin Laden raid, not to mention the pilots of the helicopters, the CIA operatives and the support staff.

And finally ask yourself this, why would “they” wait 3 months to kill the guys and how did” they” prevent the rest of DEVGRU from speaking out and exposing this whole conspiracy?
edit on 14-1-2013 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 11:58 AM
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Personal Note

I just want to be clear about something, the reason I have written this thread is because I am fed up of people saying things like “they killed the Seals that killed bin laden to cover it all up” like it is some kind of fact then having to spend time explaining to them that they're wrong

If any members disagree with me please feel free to challenge me, also if I have been slightly inaccurate about DEVGRU at any points again please correct me but this was not intended as an in-depth thread just enough detail for me to get the point across.

I am more than happy to debate this topic with anyone who wants to have a go

Finally, if you are reading this thread because I have linked you to it….. hi!.
edit on 14-1-2013 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 12:09 PM
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Now that is the way to deny ignorance! Nice post, it was well thought out. While you have just destroyed some folks here way of thinking you have also hopefully enlightened more.

I love a good conspiracy, some folks here take it too far and see MIB everywhere they look. Too bad the facts will be overlooked by them.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 12:15 PM
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Far from debunking current conspiracy theories as you have no tangible sources here, not that i doubt your credibility. Your logic is solid and I place your theory on the same level of every other one out there.

As you have described, the fluid nature of these groups would make it hard, if not impossible to tell who was where and when, without be privy to the information.

I enjoyed the read as my imagination likes to run wild with scenarios such as these and classified divisions of the special forces.

Just a note, I do not subscribe to one theory or the other, however when looking at the incidents I see the loss of human life and lose of highly trained and highly valuable military assets.

I can only imagine the cost of training for a tier 1 special forces and the means at their disposal.
edit on 14-1-2013 by MDDoxs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 12:18 PM
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one theory, bin laden wasn't actually killed but captured.

possiblity 1:

he could have taken a rubber bullet to the head or some other incapacitating round of unknown technology to simulate death incase of eye witness non combatant accounts.

the reason for this ruse is that once the public finds out, the united states would be forced to try him in american courts of the only charge levied against him: the u.s.s. cole bombing, which there is no reliable evidence except the accounts of waterboarded detainees.

capturing bin laden clandestinely gives america the chance to interrogate him and extract invaluable info to dismantle al qaeda completely and to administer proper payback.

why wouldn't you want him alive, imagine israel getting it's hand on hitler alive if they could, or ukrainians stalin.

the seal team 6 crash is just tying up loose ends for their crimes. because seals have a habit of writing books once they retire.

they won't view it as wrong, just a "necessary" sacrifice for your country.

now all these "bin laden" death photos are being challenged in court. it could be they got all they could from him and now he's really dead. and this is the governments way of releasing them but not releasing them.

possiblity 2:

it could also have been that these seals actually died in the raid, but to preserve america's special forces image and reputation as unstoppable and unkillable, it wasn't reported at the time of the raid.

the stealth helicopter "crash" is a joke, it was shot down. a state of the art helicopter on the most important mission in american history doesn't leave the hanger unless it is 100% in working order and has been quadruple checked and then checked 10x more.

the raid also took 40+ mins under intense fire, not the 30 sec. compound clearings you see on t.v. of the special forces training.

to think not one seal took a bullet is laughable, hillary clintons face in that famous picture of the war room shows horror, horror at seeing seals dropping like flies. 22 to be exact.

edit on 14-1-2013 by randomname because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 12:23 PM
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The Mark Owens (Matt Bissonette) book "No Easy Day" said none of his SEAL 6 team died during the raid or during the crash of those 30 Marine's.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 12:33 PM
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reply to post by randomname
 





one theory, bin laden wasn't actually killed but captured.

he could have taken a rubber bullet to the head or some other incapacitating round of unknown technology to simulate death incase of eye witness non combatant accounts.

the reason for this ruse is that once the public finds out, the united states would be forced to try him in american courts of the only charge levied against him: the u.s.s. cole bombing, which there is no reliable evidence except the accounts of waterboarded detainees.

capturing bin laden clandestinely gives america the chance to interrogate him and extract invaluable info to dismantle al qaeda completely and to administer proper payback.


This thread is not about Operation Neptune spear exactly, it’s about the events 3 months after but I do recognise that the events preceding the helicopter crash are pertinent to this thread.

With regards to Bin Laden I do think it is possible they did capture him however because most of my reading is of the consensus that he was killed that day I am not inclined to believe they captured him. That is not to say I am totally discounting it as a possibility, just that I don’t see any real evidence to support such a claim.




the seal team 6 crash is just tying up loose ends for their crimes. because seals have a habit of writing books once they retire.


This is where I do have to disagree with you, I have pointed out above that it is almost certain that none of the members who took part in the Bin Laden raid where on that helicopter. If you are going to take the position that the men on that helicopter where the same men who took part in Neptune Spear then you will have to prove as much.

I would also point out that one retired Seal who took part in the operation has already published a book and only 15 members of DEVGRU where killed in the helicopter and as such that would leave at least another 9 or 10 members who took part in Neptune Spear alive in addition to all of the other people who were involved in that operation.

I don’t see how you can say “well retired Seals write books so they had to kill them” when only 15 members of DEVGRU where killed and one member has already came out with a book.




it could also have been that these seals actually died in the raid, but to preserve america's special forces image and reputation as unstoppable and unkillable, it wasn't reported at the time of the raid

In that case why wait three months to do that, how do they cover it up from the rest DEVGRU and why would they have members form Gold Squadron on the helicopter but members of Red Squadron in the raid who at the time of the crash were not in the country.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by CALGARIAN
 


Yup and neither does any other author who has wrote about that operation, the consensus in the literature is that none of the Seals who took part in operation Neptune spear where on that helicopter.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin
 


how would you know that none of them were on that chopper.

their names are classified, their missions are classified, the fact they released that they died in a chopper crash when everything they do is classified is suspicious.

the only info you get is released by the same people who could be part of the conspiracy.

so whatever they say can't be taken as fact. they are covert ops, trained in deception and misdirection.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 12:57 PM
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reply to post by randomname
 




how would you know that none of them were on that chopper.


I know because that is what the consensus of the evidence is, the books, the media and the information provided by various governments all says in general the same thing. If you feel you can prove to me that the men on that helicopter did take part in operation Neptune spear then please do so, however if all you have is conjecture then you really don’t have enough to say that my OP is wrong.




their names are classified, their missions are classified, the fact they released that they died in a chopper crash when everything they do is classified is suspicious.

Actually the names of all the dead on that helicopter crash has been made public, the very first link in my OP has the full list. I would highlight the fact that only 15 where from DEVGRU yet 24 members of DEVGRU took part in operation Neptune spear so even if you assume that they were killed because they took part in the operation it makes no sense because there would still be another 9 members unaccounted for.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by Mamatus
 


thanks for your kind words dude, glad you like it



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 07:01 PM
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The helicopters code-name was “Extortion 17”....

How ironic....



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 07:44 PM
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Originally posted by randomname
the stealth helicopter "crash" is a joke, it was shot down. a state of the art helicopter on the most important mission in american history doesn't leave the hanger unless it is 100% in working order and has been quadruple checked and then checked 10x more.


It wouldn't matter if it was 100% and had been checked over 24/7 prior to the mission. The pilot screwed the pooch (which happens no matter how good you are) and clipped the wall with the tail rotor because he was coming down in a brown out caused by the other helicopter. It wasn't technically a crash, it was a hard landing. They are two different things in the case of a helicopter. The helicopter was blown by the SEAL team on the way out, but the tail rotor was on the wrong side of the wall, which is why it was intact.

I don't care how good your equipment is, as long as it's flown by a human and maintained by humans, there is always the chance that there is going to be an accident, or a bird is going to come down. Just look at some of the crashes of "state of the art" aircraft, flown by highly experienced pilots, both military and civilian and see how they screwed up.

Two prime examples are the Tenerife crash between a KLM and a Pan Am, and another one, flown by Silk Air (I think), where they went into a dive and slammed into the Red Sea. The KLM was flown by the top training pilot, who was their most experienced pilot. He took off without clearance, while the Pan Am was still taxiing on the runway, slammed into them, and killed over 500 people. Tenerife happened when the 747 was just entering service and was very high tech, and Silk Air was a 737-800 one of the latest models of 737s.

The Silk Air flight was flown by a former Air Force pilot (I think Egyptian but I can't remember off the top of my head). He was also one of the few to have a kill against the Israeli Air Force. He was a unit commander before retiring to fly 737s. They took off at night, and he got vertigo, and lost situational awareness, and let the aircraft roll into a vertical dive without realizing it, and they ended up hitting the ocean and killing everyone on board.

Both highly trained, highly experienced pilots, both screwed up. The Special Forces (160th SOAR) uses the best pilots they can get, but that doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. That was the unit over Somalia, where they made mistakes, and lost two Blackhawks to RPGs.
edit on 1/14/2013 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 02:34 PM
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reply to post by Zaphod58
 


Thank you for that, some very good points you have raised their regarding that crash.

Actually as the resident expert on these matters I was wonder what you make of this, I have read that the reason the pilot’s approach went wrong was more to do with the training. At the mock up compound they created which the pilots used to practice their approach for the raid, apparently the perimeter walls where just made up of wire fencing. The result was that they underestimated the effect that the concrete walls would have on the tail rotor of the helicopter when they attempted to land so close to the concrete wall. Also I have read that they used Ghost Hawks, as in the stealth hawks however that the version used was a 2nd generation stealth helicopter and that there does also exist a even more advance 3rd generation. I was wondering if you would agree with these statements or have anything to add.

Thanks.



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin
 


There's some information out there that's pretty interesting (*coughRATScough*), but I'll almost guarantee they have a more advanced version flying.

As for the crash, I know the Army has trained in the past to crash helicopters into compounds as the quickest way to get on the ground (see Son Tay and Operation Ivory Coast), I'm not sure that in this case they would use that method, unless they had used one of the Chinooks that were with them. I don't see them taking the chance on the wall being tougher than expected, or the tail rotor tangling in wire and losing an aircraft. The second helicopter is always at a huge disadvantage because of the sand and dust kicked up by the lead, and I think he just misjudged his position and clipped the wall.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 03:57 PM
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reply to post by Zaphod58
 


Again thank you for the additional information this a area that I am very interested in so your input is valued.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 08:12 PM
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reply to post by randomname
 


One possibility is that Bin Ladin was working for the United States the whole time. There is no body. There are no pictures. He is alive. Most members of Al Qaida would not know that the leadership of Al Qaida works for the CIA. Ayman Al Zawahiri was involved in the assassination of Anwar Sadat. There is video of him speaking about his detention in English. Did Egyptian Islamic Jihad get help with that assassination? Adam Gadahn is the number three person in leadership in Al Qaida. He is a Jewish guy from California whose grandfather helped form the Anti Defamation League. Anwar al Awlaki , an American citizen, who supposedly was drone assassinated in Yemen was working with the American government right after 911 as a "moderate" muslim leader although he had no clerical credentials. He became leader of Al Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula. Khaled Sheikh Mohammad, the supposed mastermind of 911, was captured in Pakistan, a US ally. Bin Ladin was supposedly killed in a Pakistani military district. Pakistan is a US ally. Any tension between the two countries is an illusion, just as it is an illusion that there is any tension between Israel and the Obama administration. It must be remembered that Al Qaida was created by the CIA in the first place to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. "Al Qaida" translates into "the base" in English. Bin Ladin assembled a data"base" of the fighters that fought in Afghanistan to form Al Qaida. It has always been and will continue to be a CIA asset. Jihadists brought down Qadaffi in Libya with US help. The Muslim Brotherhood is in power in Egypt because of the social media inspired (facebook) so-called Arab Spring. Jihadists are currently fighting against the Syrian government with US help. If the US controls the leadership of Jihadist groups, it gets those fighters to do what the US wants.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by Adaluncatif
 


It never stops amazing me how member of ATS believe in the kind of things you have outlined in that post as if they constitute historical fact.

This thread is about the SEAL Team Six helicopter crash, nothing else.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 08:52 PM
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S&F for you!!!! That was hands down one of the best laid out, explained and to the point threads I have ever had the pleasure of reading here!!! Personally I always wanted to believe that they just said the helicopter crashed with those responsible for the raid on Bin Landen so that the SEALS could kind of just disappear into the night, because no one looks for a dead man right?? That being said this really brought to light (at least for me) so info that I've never seen before. So thank you kind sir I found this most informative and interesting!!



posted on Jan, 19 2013 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by RN311
 


Thanks for that dude means a lot I am glad you enjoyed.





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