What will happen if there is a civil war in America?

Originally posted by jimmiec
reply to post by superman2012

 

Guns support families. Where i live the freezers are filled every year with deer meat. Guns are tools for most Americans. Big cities? Not so much. We learn gun safety/hunting/safety at a very early age here and we don't have gun crime.

Handguns do not support families. My freezer is also filled with deer meat, and I don't own a gun. What happens when they try to confiscate your guns, people resist, and you don't have hunters keeping a species in check anymore, you have unskilled people shooting animals for food. Do they know the difference between a buck and a doe? Would the let the little guys go for next year or just take the easy shot? What happens when the herds thin out? Are they going to self-regulate and not hunt for a couple of years or have a tag system? No. They are going to kill as they need them.
Hunters are taught this way of thinking, people with guns are not hunters and do not think about long term effects of overhunting.

All the talk of a civil war reminds me of a survivor of Argentina who said something to the effect that there was no great triggering event; they just woke up one day and released that what they were able to do for all their lives was no longer possible. Death squads both "rebel" and government seemed to be the order of the day in many cities. People still tried to work but it got so bad that just stopping at a red light could get you robbed or worse.

The civil war in America started long ago with the marginalization of anyone who disagrees with the policies set forth by the federal government. Catch all phrases such as racist, or Bible belt gun touting red neck, anti-gay, anti anything the government by decree says they want (regardless of polls that indicate otherwise) absurd, against the will of the American people, reasonable restrictions, etc etc have all been a successful propaganda campaign. It seems more blatant today and has moved over to anyone who believes in certain parts of the Constitution or feels NDAA and half a dozen other bills are unconstitutional; absurd right wing conspiracy dildos without batteries instead of people with different opinions that should be heard/considered and discussed....

MSN in the event of a true SHTF scenario will say what they are told or will be off the air. There might be a few who try with their audience to get some disparaging word out but they will be recognized and removed asap. We are seeing this already in some ways, no?

So, here we are another day....I watched the Presidential speech and am truly impressed with our presidents delivery method...Nothing new as far as problems solved just finger pointing and blaming others because he can not move the country forward with his idea of a better America; the mean old congress will not raise the debt limit.

The records indicate there were approximately 3% that took up arms during our other revolution. I can only assume if it got serious there might be close to the prior number who would try to rebel, but,... today is not like yesteryear with the population spread out more thus the lack of communication they would be faced with would/could nip any form of organized grand scale resistance in the bud during the early stages..Our military might be a deciding force if some branch gets pissed enough at the government but at this stage I just don't see it happening. The gun stuff and the resistance to many proposed rules will be a factor but I doubt anything for a presidential signature will reflect some of the more outlandish rumors we are hearing.

I am packing and heading overseas for a couple of months or I would enjoy procrastinating different scenarios but the wife is all over me already so, good luck and sorry I could not add more..

reply to post by 727Sky

Thanks for the great reply! BTW, I can watch that silly cat go sky-diving all day for some reason.

Originally posted by superman2012
I'm going to copy and paste one of my arguments from the thread where this got started.


Your same arguments for the government not being able to farm (as if they need to with the amount of foreign aid they will receive from their allies, yes that's right, you will be labelled terrorists and the US allies will help the government) can also be used against you.
Assuming you make it out of a city to be a countryside farming Rambo, you will need round the clock surveillance and weapons to stop Uncle Sam from taking what they want.
Notwithstanding the cameras hundreds of miles straight up that are and can watch you. Think heat signatures.
How are you going to farm without the necessary equipment? Even if you get the equipment how are you going to keep it running? How much gas/diesel do you really have stored? Do you think you can run down to the local gas station? How are you going to handle a drought? Pesticides? Herbicides? Feed for cattle? Feed for poultry? How are you going to communicate with others when the government takes over all bands on the radio and monitors all frequencies? What happens in the winter? Are you just going to settle where you can live all year round in comfort? You think they don't realize humans freeze in the winter? What about medical emergencies? Diabetes? You have a source of insulin? Can you keep it refrigerated? How many people are going to die in your group within 3 months due to lack of available meds? How are you going to deal with difficult pregnancies? If you are lucky enough to have a physician/EMT/nurse in your group, what happens when they need tools for surgery? What happens if they haven't performed the surgery? What happens if they get wounded/killed? Do you give up then?

When your children are starving in the woods, slowly freezing to death because you think you had things all figured out typing away on your keyboard, remember the people that submitted and are spending time with their families. You may have held to your principles, but, if no one is alive in your group to enjoy it, what did you accomplish?

ps- they will never question what they are fighting for as long as their family is safe, if it were possible I would suggest talking to a Jewish Ghetto Policeman.

Here are some answers to a few of the problems you presented. They are by no means a definitive answer just suggestions.

A biomass generator or wood generator takes care of the gas problem for tractors and maybe even generators from time to time. Simple technology used nearly a hundred years ago to extract gases from wood and other biomass to burn in a carburetor.

If you are forced to run from your homes then locate a water source such as a stream or river. Preferably where the stream begins out of the ground so no one can cut off your supply upstream. Farming near there eliminates droughts.

Whoever you allow into your group you need to lead them there without them knowing exactly where they are. The reason follows:
To communicate with the outside world you need to send runners out for Intel. Blindfold these volunteers and walk them in and out of the camps a few miles out so they can't get captured and pin point your exact location to the opposition. Have a point you meet them at and walk them back in.

Domesticate as many animals as you can. Preferably small fast breeding animals. Rabbits, Guinea Pigs, Chickens, and Fish are ideal and they are easier to take care of.

Learn to can everything from meat to veggies. Learn to make Vinegar from the 'mother'. Vinegar is used for all kinds of things from canning to medical. It's like rubbing alcohol for the inside and outside of the body.
Some medical relief can be grown but others will have to be scavenged so there will indeed be loss of life there. Fish antibiotics such as Fish Forte or Fish Mox are human consumable and easier to come by than CVS or the like.

When you build fires make it under shelter so that an airplane or helicopter has a hard time seeing the light from above. Only burn at night so the smoke isn't seen. Use Fresnel lenses or parabolic mirrors to cook during the day. Heat your shelter using passive solar techniques trapping any sunlight heat and pumping it into your abode. There are claims you can heat your place to 70 degrees in the winter months using this. Last resort would be to build a fire for heat. Again the smoke gives you away in the daylight hours.

Satellites are a problem but with the amount of people in the U.S. they couldn't track everyone one in the wilderness. Besides wild animals give off heat signatures too.

It can be done but many won't even know where to start. Many would submit in the beginning but then there are those who can make it and they would teach it to others.

People will survive and then they would fight back.

You might not be able to tell it but I've thought about this before.

Civil War? Who are you kidding. Who is your enemy? Whats the cause? What are you fighting with? Where are the battle lines?

You're living in a fanciful world. But maybe your wild imagination could come out in a book. Try and make yourself some money and improve your situation. maybe then you wouldn't spend your idle days imagining things that will not happen.

Look up 'decimation' in the roman army, that kept the roman army in line and doing what it was ordered to do, a few acts like that in the American army, and they too will do as they are told, shoot civilians, burn food stocks, poison water, destroy medical stocks, you name it, they will do it, better that being shot by your own officers. In the 1st world war, British army deserters were shot by their buddies,and that myth about one man having a blank cartridge is just that, a myth.

reply to post by dave_welch


Interesting doom and gloom scenario. Never going to happen however.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


Care to take part in the discussion and tell us why you believe it won't?

reply to post by TheLieWeLive

Everything you have said, I agree with. It could be done. Just not on a big enough scale to actually fight back against the government. You could definitely survive though.

To resistance fighters help usually comes , this might come from weapons and ammo drops, to food from foreign nations to others with agendas the fighters have no knowledge of. Maybe even offering troops to help wage the war. All this of course comes with a price, Then, it won`t be seen but accepted without question, but as the resistance grows in power the real underbelly will start to rise. This is where if a civil war breaks out, the real danger is. To depend on ourselves to fight it, with no retreat and no surrender would have to be the only way, speaking only in the way of theory of course. Maybe though it might just be food for thought.

Wonderful thread on so many levels.
It should be renamed the SuperDave debate.
dave_welch & Superman2012 I salute you both.

I love how both you guys have debated a hypothetical scenario not just with intelligent and well written posts but with mutual respect and restrained clarity. There is real skill in this, that many posters could well do with studying. Everybody has an opinion and few can be swayed from theirs, some of us though can appreciate the skills of the poster and admire their intellectual combat. Some of us actually don't automatically side with the poster who agrees with our standpoint and can admire the verbal dance of the opposition. We can respect their unwillingness to descend to agressive abusive tactics and enjoy the fight so to speak.
Hypothetical it may be but really isn't everything until it happens.
This is one of those threads. Masters sparring.
Seriously, ATS at its finest.
>Edit<
@ 727Sky, your posts are also insightful and interesting but so hard to read.
Every sentence you write is interrupted because I just enjoy watching your avatar cat leaping so much

reply to post by dave_welch


Well, I have to disagree with you there. I see it all the time here. Off-duty military members in uniform demanding discounts at places not known for them. I've seen this a handfull of times.

Also, usually if there is a bar fight -- it's some brash 20 year old bullet sponge fresh off a tour or out of basic with his head all full of words like "duty" and "honor".

The military does a pretty good job at providing a false sense of a middle class life. Meals are provided at the mess, health care is covered, Star Cards (credit card) are issued, clothing (uniforms) are provided, discount gasoline on post, commisary privileges (discounts on food and other items). Then they dump these kids out into the real world with PTSD, a spouse who has left them -- and no idea how to take care of themselves.

The military is the most socialistic institution we have in America! And so many military members I run into hate Obama, hate socialism and liberals. Oh the irony!

I have many friends that are retired military in their 40's and 50's. There is a BIG difference between them and these new hot-headed enlisted guys. Maybe it's age -- but I really feel that the indoctrination level has been ramped up, because the reasons behind these "wars" are complete BS.

They are not "sacrificing to protect our freedom". What are they saving us from? Dirt poor people that have no running water? Really? Do you know how much a plane ticket costs from the Middle East? These people can barley afford to feed themselves, yet we are terrified of them here in the USA.

There is, however, a HUGE divide between enlisted and officers. It's like night and day. Officers tend to be more stable, intelligent, calm, and carry themselvese with more poise.

And yes, they get to play a lot of xBox overseas. You can tell which part of the Middle East they were in by the type of sand their xBox has inside when they trade it in.

Sorry, although I did read many of the replies i'll admit I kinda skimmed a few
Bit I should imagine the UN blue helmets have been considered .......naturally being on the govs side
But something that is often forgotten or overlooked in these threads is the probable insurgency
How many do you think would come to the US through Canada and Mexico to help the resistance against the gov ?

I personally believe many would come ...........but I wonder ........how would you receive them ?

With open arms, happy for the assistance and skills brought to your cause

Or the way non US posters tend to get treated on this site ?
Coz lets face it .......a US cit can write about anything, anyone, anywhere
But you try and be a non US cit and say something about America ............
You can stick your nose in where ever you choose, but should we have an input, an idea, a question, we are dismissed, insulted, like we don't count
Please ponder this attitude before you answer .........and sorry for the mini rant

Not bad, but I would think that there would be large scale protests before any sort of militia etc is formed, and those protests would likely be beaten back by police, as per G20 summit protests in Philadelphia.

Many gun owners / hunters are not fit enough to join militias, and you have to factor in the complete apathy of most of the American people.

I believe that your scenario would only take place if creature comforts were removed along with Government demanding guns back. If the Government were to shut off power to those people who were refusing to comply with gun retrieval, then this migh force the sort of scenario you're looking at.

As far as the original premise, the Government hasn't actually proposed taking back the firearms that are already out there. Even an Executive Order would only pertain to NEW sales, and wouldn't force people to give up anything that they already have, which is why, as a law, it will be completely useless.

For most of the bluster of the gun owners, I doubt very many of them would actually take any action at all if the Government troops came to their doors looking for their guns. I highly doubt there will be shoot out scenarios in most cases, but this will definitely happen in a few locations. I doubt Alex Jones would be one who would fight, I bet he doesn't put his money where his mouth is when it comes down to a fight against heavily armed and armored troops at his door.

So is this what you hope will come true? And you realize right that if this did happen you would see the rise of dictator right?

Some how, and I am willing to bet money if there is an executive order it will not be a "Gun Grab' this will NEVER happen. Not a bury my head in the sand. It will not happen, registration sure but no wholesale recall of guns.

This is a fantasy.

reply to post by babybunnies


Are you really sure we all would be at our doors or houses waiting for them to come???? Or would word spread so quick that they might just find ghost towns. In this theory who knows how country boys react, especially skilled woodsmen.

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
reply to post by dave_welch

 

Interesting doom and gloom scenario. Never going to happen however.

So long as Americans are placed into a position of permanent lethargy with reruns of Honey Boo Boo and Survivor, they'll be happy.

If you you watch this you might have second thoughts about being disarmed, because we might just have a bigger threat approaching: www.youtube.com..., FYI People !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And this is all raw footage, no cg or editing.

Originally posted by MystikMushroom
reply to post by dave_welch

 

Well, I have to disagree with you there. I see it all the time here. Off-duty military members in uniform demanding discounts at places not known for them. I've seen this a handfull of times.

Also, usually if there is a bar fight -- it's some brash 20 year old bullet sponge fresh off a tour or out of basic with his head all full of words like "duty" and "honor".

The military does a pretty good job at providing a false sense of a middle class life. Meals are provided at the mess, health care is covered, Star Cards (credit card) are issued, clothing (uniforms) are provided, discount gasoline on post, commisary privileges (discounts on food and other items). Then they dump these kids out into the real world with PTSD, a spouse who has left them -- and no idea how to take care of themselves.

The military is the most socialistic institution we have in America! And so many military members I run into hate Obama, hate socialism and liberals. Oh the irony!

I have many friends that are retired military in their 40's and 50's. There is a BIG difference between them and these new hot-headed enlisted guys. Maybe it's age -- but I really feel that the indoctrination level has been ramped up, because the reasons behind these "wars" are complete BS.

They are not "sacrificing to protect our freedom". What are they saving us from? Dirt poor people that have no running water? Really? Do you know how much a plane ticket costs from the Middle East? These people can barley afford to feed themselves, yet we are terrified of them here in the USA.

There is, however, a HUGE divide between enlisted and officers. It's like night and day. Officers tend to be more stable, intelligent, calm, and carry themselvese with more poise.

And yes, they get to play a lot of xBox overseas. You can tell which part of the Middle East they were in by the type of sand their xBox has inside when they trade it in.

Well, maybe my experience in the military was different then the guys you know. Of course, I was in the Navy, and it's a whole different mindset than the other branches. Especially on small boys like I was, when you get 350 people living together on a 500ft ship you learn to deal with people, and you learn to live without any symblance of privacy. Most rates (jobs) live with 16 or more hour workdays, sleeping in the same room as 70 other people, and regularly having millions of dollars in high tech, war fighting equipment, it's pretty humbling.