What will happen if there is a civil war in America?

Ok, first off i wanted to say that Candlelight: the videos you have are of the sun... as time goes on, watch the movement of the black circle in relation to the shadow from the porch railing. You can't see it unless you jump the video foreword. the camera cannot handle the extreme light put out by the sun, therefore blacking it out.pm me if you want more info on it

Anyways, is anyone actually taking into account JSOC? They are in command of most spec ops battalions. Look into them a bit.

reply to post by PKDragon


Why look into jsoc??? There are an exponential amount of missions they carry out. Expound please.

Another thing too consider is propaganda will be the name of the day, if it isn't already.
Every news print, every online and tv story, even alphabet infiltrators, will be talking
About how pointless it is too resist, how everywhere else in the country is losing,
All resisters are being slaughtered throughout the US, and how babies are fatherless
And mothers and wives are now widows because of a few fool hearted traitors too the
United states. There would be frequent no questions asked turn in stations, where guns could be
Handed in, and you could go be with your loved ones, with complete immunity. They wouldhave
Witness accounts, babies in hospitals, wives crying for their husbands, sons holding old
Baseball gloves alone...

Your local sheriff/outspoken war hero that you thought was on your side and became leaders of
Your localized resistance suddenly quits and asks many of you too "Do the right thing for
America s futureand your family", because they were bought off by the Gov.with immunity, or
Face treason charges/death. You don't know this. So, all you see is your leader giving up.

A job, decent pay, food and water, for you and your family, if you would secretly, in the dark of night,
Surrender your firearms at one of their many turn in stations. Please, stop this unnecessary violence
You've brought upon your fellow Americas....that would be the tip of the psyops iceberg.

Originally posted by Cuervo


You just described virtually every single gun owner I've met.

Maybe we should put all the resistance fighters and TSA agents in boxing rings to fight obesity and defend the constitution.

Where did you meet these gun owners and how do you know they are gun owners? Its not like we go around with a name tag that says "Hi, I am a gunowner." Thats a pretty lame response. Maybe we should put you in a ring with all the gunowners.

reply to post by dave_welch


haha very true...it doesnt sound as glamorous now...me being a big ol fatty!

reply to post by cosmicexplorer


If you're a "big old fatty", change that sh#t brother!!! Only you is stopping you!!! To stay in this hypothetical
Fight, you have to bee able to get there. Only you have the answers. You weren't always a
"fatty" and it is not funny. You can change that! F LOL. Not funny!!!! Fix it. Email me or p2p,
This is your only life. And it is serious!!!! I'm a personal trainer, an army ranger, and haves taken
Dietician course s. I WILL HELP YOU GET INTHE GAME BROTHER.

To K1K1

Sir, I think you are the one that in your liberal thinking has been brainwashed by the media 'hook line and sinker'!
You have a very low opinion of our warriors in uniform!
You can sit out the coming (possible) war in "Peace" along with your friends in your hippie communes while others (defenders of the constitution) protect your a$$.
Sorry but I really don't believe you when you say you have a lot of friends that is in the military,

Originally posted by superman2012
I'm going to copy and paste one of my arguments from the thread where this got started.


Your same arguments for the government not being able to farm (as if they need to with the amount of foreign aid they will receive from their allies, yes that's right, you will be labelled terrorists and the US allies will help the government) can also be used against you.
Assuming you make it out of a city to be a countryside farming Rambo, you will need round the clock surveillance and weapons to stop Uncle Sam from taking what they want.
Notwithstanding the cameras hundreds of miles straight up that are and can watch you. Think heat signatures.
How are you going to farm without the necessary equipment? Even if you get the equipment how are you going to keep it running? How much gas/diesel do you really have stored? Do you think you can run down to the local gas station? How are you going to handle a drought? Pesticides? Herbicides? Feed for cattle? Feed for poultry? How are you going to communicate with others when the government takes over all bands on the radio and monitors all frequencies? What happens in the winter? Are you just going to settle where you can live all year round in comfort? You think they don't realize humans freeze in the winter? What about medical emergencies? Diabetes? You have a source of insulin? Can you keep it refrigerated? How many people are going to die in your group within 3 months due to lack of available meds? How are you going to deal with difficult pregnancies? If you are lucky enough to have a physician/EMT/nurse in your group, what happens when they need tools for surgery? What happens if they haven't performed the surgery? What happens if they get wounded/killed? Do you give up then?

When your children are starving in the woods, slowly freezing to death because you think you had things all figured out typing away on your keyboard, remember the people that submitted and are spending time with their families. You may have held to your principles, but, if no one is alive in your group to enjoy it, what did you accomplish?

ps- they will never question what they are fighting for as long as their family is safe, if it were possible I would suggest talking to a Jewish Ghetto Policeman.

Look at Afghanistan. Now multiply the carnage by millions and you will understand what a well armed and pissed off citizenry can do in terms of guerrilla warfare. Feds don't last a week if a true civil war happens. It would be an immediate Balkanization of the u.s. No one would want to be associated with government as to not risk their families.

Anyway, I don't think it will ever come to that. Instead you will see secession by various states....once that happens...it's over. The u.s. will Balkanize at some point and perhaps ...at best...become more like the EU. The catalyst will be an economic collapse and a desire to start over minus the debt.

Originally posted by jcarpenter

Originally posted by Thunder heart woman

I'm sorry. I just don't believe our military will stand behind us. No offense to those here who serve and say they won't, but if we ever got to that point in the OP's scenario, I simply do not trust that our military will not follow the orders they are given.

Agreed.

A few years back, there was a police raid in Georgia where the people in the target residence were handcuffed and had hoods put over their heads. Now .... who do you reckon' was on that "team"?

This is what our troops have been brainwashed to do. It would be my guess that most of them will follow orders and most will do everything here that they have been doing overseas. House raids, disappearances, secret prisons, torture ..... and murder. The murders in prison were particularly brutal according to autopsies performed by US military doctors.

You guys are not taking into account that these were small localized incidents that had little affect on the nation as a whole. In a situation like the OP describes, the whole country is involved.

Place yourself in a service member's shoes.. The whole country is falling apart, war and chaos abounds, you hear of fellow service member's family being killed and witness those service people breaking down into tears..

What would be rolling through your head? "Better do what my CO says or I'll get in trouble.", or, "Omg, my children/wife/brother/sister (etc.) are they ok? Are they alive? Will I ever see them again? Am I gonna stand here and get shot at for a government that has demonstrated, time and time again, that they don't give a # about me?"

Our brothers and sisters will not betray us... not in the end.. We are human before all else.

I think your scenario isn't too far off, I've been told by military personnel that many in the military are aware of this and would not turn their guns on the people. There are certainly a few that have blurred lines of morality vs taking orders but the majority of soldiers would not turn their guns on Americans.

Anybody heard of oath keepers? check out their website, the founder of oathkeepers has already made a statement on a gun grab.

Originally posted by wulff
To K1K1

Sir, I think you are the one that in your liberal thinking has been brainwashed by the media 'hook line and sinker'!
You have a very low opinion of our warriors in uniform!
You can sit out the coming (possible) war in "Peace" along with your friends in your hippie communes while others (defenders of the constitution) protect your a$$.
Sorry but I really don't believe you when you say you have a lot of friends that is in the military,

edit on 16-1-2013 by wulff because: (no reason given)

haha oh friend, i am far from a peace loving hippie.

i think you might have misinterpreted my posts..you underestimate me...i like that, maybe that gives me an advantage in a SHTF situation...but thats another story...

i am far from a tree hugging "peace pipe" hippie...in my opinion i think the media and people in general romanticize and gives them more credit than they deserve to the people in uniform... i dont want to give any information that will compromise me, but i have worked very closely with both military and police men and women, and i will tell you that they are some of the most corrupt people in society. and i stand by that statement

if the time to TRULY defend or get back our freedom comes...i will be at the front lines

but dont be surprised if you get your door kicked down one night and it turns out that it is a fellow "man in uniform" doing it.

Ok, one thing that I've yet to see mentioned (i've only made it to page 4) is nuclear weapons. People seem to ascribe the US government an invulnerability card and a supremacy of force. I don't think that would be the case. M.A.D. that's why. States like TX and N.D. have nuclear weapons that would end up on the side of the rebels. Once that happens the playing field changes dramatically.

Also, if the iranians can hack into a drone, even just enough to take it down, there are americans that can. it's simple statistics. As far as drones go, homemade drones are easy with a few mods, granted they aren't global, but they would work in a local situation.

Another fallacy I see in this thread is the comparison to the arab spring and libya. It would be NOTHING like that. We are a country of intelligent people (not that libyans aren't intelligent) who have not been living under a dictatorship for decades and a country of 300m vs libya's 6m.

I'll be back to check responses later, have fun ripping me to shreds

It is one thing for our government to pass legislation; the wider application of that legislation on our streets and at our doorsteps is another matter.
Every time Obama uses the Gun word people run out and buy more.
They know there out numbered, guns will be like your every day drug raid.
Bad boys bad boys what you going to do....
We will have to look over our back just to get ammo.
Lots of paper work& money to be legal.
There not going to Bite the hand that feeds them,just shorten the chains around our ankles.

I seriously doubt a civil war is around the corner. I can not say it is impossible, but I do doubt the fact that it would happen so soon after an executive order were placed.

You would have to keep in mind, there are far more civilians than there are DHS agents. Not to mention, there isn't a complete list of all the firearms, their whereabouts and their owners in government possession. Yes, in some states their may be a small catalog of owners and firearms, but this is an enormous undertaking that would take years to act out. Not to mention, I doubt it would be a raid first ask questions later scenario. The government loves it's paper work, it does make them money after all.

I have to say, I sincerely doubt any jets or serious hardware are going to walk off any old military base. Definitely no warships escaping a base even with a large group of mutineers. There will still be large numbers of military faithful to the government, that's what they are trained to be and that's what they will be. Those that defect will likely be taken as they do so. Yes, small groups could make off with smaller equipment, but no warship is getting out of the harbor under defector control. The government would sink it the moment they thought it was out of their hands. Keep in mind, much of the US fleet that could be manned by a small group of mutineers is not going to stand against larger fleet vessels, or US aircraft.

Sure, I'll give you that maybe, "Maybe" a defector could take a jet, but what is he going to do with it? If he flies it, it will get shot down by the many that are still under government control. Once he lands it, it needs fuel, ammo, maintenance. Not like you can just walk back on base after and load up what you need for that jet. It would be located and destroyed in hours.

A resistance is not going to be armed with serious US military hardware. Given years of fighting, and the complete collapse of the government some tanks and other armored vehicles I could understand. There is a large abundance hanging around various parts of the US. As far as Aircraft, I seriously doubt it. Naval vessels will turn into what's left of the government office, and even if they were captured, given this is a US Civil war, you can't exactly bring a frigate into central US. Why waste the time, man power and valuable resources after the collapse to capture something outside of the lands you're fighting for.

IF, (I say this cautiously,) a civil war broke out in the US you will see small groups of resistance fighters using guerrilla tactics against a superior fighting force, exactly as we see in the middle east. Attempting to over throw the military in an effort to secure the nation on their terms is absolutely foolish. They are vastly superior in equipment and training when compared to the average resistance fighter.

Food, would ultimately become an issue, and I can't say the government would give two #s what they destroy in rooting out the resistance. Ultimately the blame will be laid on the Terrorists(resistance). We saw this in the most recent of Gaza attacks. The government will put out warnings, do not associate with terrorist, be around terrorists, blah blah blah.

Resistance fighter in a hospital, they will strike it, school they will strike it, extremely valuable wheat field they will strike it. They really don't care, they have stocks for those they deem important. Having the general public and the resistance suffer, puts pressure on the resistance as long as the government can keep the focus on them. Not to mention, if the government labels the destruction of a crop as an attempt by the resistance to damage the masses, the people trying to stay out of it will look poorly towards said resistance. It's incredibly hard to win a civil war with out the support of the nation.

The issue hasn't come into play. Radical answers seem to be, being demanded and the msm is trying to push the fear along, but you still have a vote. If you disagree with the issues of gun control, make your voice heard. If peaceful means can not be had, then start to worry about things like this. Jumping to Gun control = civil war, is exactly the reason they are doing this sort of thing. It's like putting matches on the table, then telling a kid not to touch them. He's gonna want to touch them, he will think about. Some kids might touch em, some might not. Others still will burn the damn house down.

reply to post by Hijinx

A resistance is not going to be armed with serious US military hardware. Given years of fighting, and the complete collapse of the government some tanks and other armored vehicles I could understand. There is a large abundance hanging around various parts of the US. As far as Aircraft, I seriously doubt it. Naval vessels will turn into what's left of the government office, and even if they were captured, given this is a US Civil war, you can't exactly bring a frigate into central US. Why waste the time, man power and valuable resources after the collapse to capture something outside of the lands you're fighting for.

I guess I disagree because I think states will be on the other side of this, not just groups of random citizens. The heavily republican states (TX, UT, ND, etc) are very like minded politically and would band together which would allow them to take entire military installations.

Resistance fighter in a hospital, they will strike it, school they will strike it, extremely valuable wheat field they will strike it. They really don't care, they have stocks for those they deem important. Having the general public and the resistance suffer, puts pressure on the resistance as long as the government can keep the focus on them.

The avg american knows that the media has a left leaning bias and seeks out alternative news sources (internet, fox, et al) there've been numerous gallup polls that show this. So the government will be scrutinized by the average american and sides will be taken.

People keep comparing it to the middle east but are forgetting that the insurgents there are not popular. Look at syria, the government is being attacked by alqaeda. the only reason they've not won is because the civilians on the ground know who is fighting. The same would happen in the U.S. but instead of al-qaeda, it is their fellow americans. Their brothers and sisters, cousins and friends. A resistance in the US, spurred on by gun control is going to be popular.

Maybe I'm deluded in my thinking, but I've not met a single person who would side with the government (granted, I live in a very red state.)

Originally posted by JerkyBeer
reply to post by cosmicexplorer

 

If you're a "big old fatty", change that sh#t brother!!! Only you is stopping you!!! To stay in this hypothetical
Fight, you have to bee able to get there. Only you have the answers. You weren't always a
"fatty" and it is not funny. You can change that! F LOL. Not funny!!!! Fix it. Email me or p2p,
This is your only life. And it is serious!!!! I'm a personal trainer, an army ranger, and haves taken
Dietician course s. I WILL HELP YOU GET INTHE GAME BROTHER.

haha sorry brother...you misunderstood the prior conversation....we were talking about food as currency...and I said if that was the case I would be a big old fatty! Thanks for the offer though my friend....my wife is a dietician so she gets on me...and thx for your service...was 11b myself.

reply to post by Dfairlite


The problem with the nukes is whether or not there are enough people around to operate them. Not to mention the launch fail-safes in place that guarantee that only 2 or three people will be able to launch them. Not only do you have to have the right keys to put in the switches, you have to know the launch codes. I don't think the gov would use nukes, as no other country in the world would allow that to go unnoticed. The resistance forces them is all relative to whose in charge there, if it's a group of maniacs led by a maniac, they would launch them if they could, the thing is, I'm not so sure there are that many maniacs. Average people would never use them.

Originally posted by Hijinx
I seriously doubt a civil war is around the corner. I can not say it is impossible, but I do doubt the fact that it would happen so soon after an executive order were placed.

I agree with your view. And this here:

IF, (I say this cautiously,) a civil war broke out in the US you will see small groups of resistance fighters using guerrilla tactics against a superior fighting force, exactly as we see in the middle east. Attempting to over throw the military in an effort to secure the nation on their terms is absolutely foolish. They are vastly superior in equipment and training when compared to the average resistance fighter.

On the other hand, the goal of an insurgent is not to "win" in the conventional sense. As long as the insurgents can field violent opposition to the central authority, they ARE winning. Remember that George Washington lost every single pitched battle he fought against the Empire. But they eventually surrendered. A similar story unfolded in Vietnam, as well as the story of the Germanic tribes against the Romans (although the Teutons stupidly insisted on fighting a conventional war; it took generations to wear the Romans down.).

The central authority, like every regime, claims a monopoly on the use of force. This means that 3 partisans with donkeys and deer rifles shooting at "collaborators" driving on the government road are a grave threat to the occupier's authority. The partisans don't even have to be very accurate, as long as they instil fear and doubt in the minds of those who serve the central government.

And so the govt has to send in multiple units to patrol the area, make sweeps of the local villages, and piss off all the old people who sit and stare as soldiers "frisk" their grandchildren for weapons.

How many Stryker vehicles does it take to keep a road "safe" in northern Afghanistan? It only takes a couple of teenage shooters hiding in the hills to invalidate the coalition's authority....

Food, would ultimately become an issue, and I can't say the government would give two #s what they destroy in rooting out the resistance. Ultimately the blame will be laid on the Terrorists(resistance). We saw this in the most recent of Gaza attacks. The government will put out warnings, do not associate with terrorist, be around terrorists, blah blah blah.

See, that's the quagmire of a pacification campaign. If you are the occupier, you CAN'T destroy stuff and "make examples" of the subject population without growing the resistance. That is what happened to the Nazi occupation of the Balkans. They had subject populations like the croats, who had every reason to back the German invader, but a few partisans started the reprisal-train, and it ended up unifying the populace behind a communist like Tito.

Same in the Ukraine. The Ukrainians welcomed the Germans as liberators. But a few Russian snipers popped a few officers, and the Germans said "10 dead Ukrainians for every slain German hero." The partisan problem never shrank, it only grew. Always. Its been that way ever since the beginning. Likewise with Ho Chi Minh; he wasn't a messiah until the US forced a large minority of Vietnamese into his camp.

Resistance fighter in a hospital, they will strike it, school they will strike it, extremely valuable wheat field they will strike it. They really don't care, they have stocks for those they deem important. Having the general public and the resistance suffer, puts pressure on the resistance as long as the government can keep the focus on them. Not to mention, if the government labels the destruction of a crop as an attempt by the resistance to damage the masses, the people trying to stay out of it will look poorly towards said resistance. It's incredibly hard to win a civil war with out the support of the nation.

With all respect, I believe you are fundamentally mistaken. The insurgents always, Always, ALWAYS get the benefit of the doubt. During the US Civil war, there were anti-union riots in times square. There were no pro-union riots in Richmond. Even when the populace was starving.

The world media always favors the insurgents when they report. It would be the same when reporting Uncle Sam's atrocities. Like Abu Ghraib times one thousand.

Originally posted by PKDragon
Anyways, is anyone actually taking into account JSOC? They are in command of most spec ops battalions. Look into them a bit.

Dude, I worked at Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC).

They have direct command of exactly zero ( 0 ) "spec ops battalions" whatever that is... Sometimes they might have operational control of some elements of regular units but not often and never a Battalion. Layers of command exist in between.

From their web site -

The Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) is a subunified command of the US Special Operations Command (USSOCOM). It is charged to study special operations requirements and techniques, ensure interoperability and equipment standardization, plan and conduct special operations exercises and training, and develop joint special operations tactics.

www.socom.mil...

They exist to make doctrine and test equipment and to make sure that the special units of the various branches Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines have the ability to operate together (like compatible radio equipment etc.). It was formed because of those failures in the Grenada invasion.

According to this site they are the organization that controls counter-terror operations.

Although JSOC's stated purpose is to provide a unified command structure for conducting joint special operations and exercises, it is widely reported that JSOC is actually the command responsible for conducting US counter-terrorism operations. JSOC is reported to command the US military's Special Missions Units (SMUs). These SMUs are tasked with conducting counter-terrorism operations, strike operations, reconnaissance in denied areas, and special intelligence missions.

www.globalsecurity.org...

I can neither confirm or deny this...but that is what they say on the web site.

Special mission units to be clear are like Delta, Naval Development Group, Intelligence Support Activity, groups known as Virginia Boys etc… These type units organization charts are classified however. USSOCOM’s is not.

Here it is in fact…




JSOC is but one of the subunified Commands of USSOCOM and has no formations referred to as Battalions.

Battalions are subordinate units of Groups in Army Special Operations which are in turn the subordinate units of US Army Special Operations Command (USASOC). However, for the sake of confusion Ranger Battalions are subordinate to a Regiment which is subordinate to USASOC.

Just to keep it more confusing there are Battalions in MARSOC as well…

The Air Force and Navy do not use Battalion as a unit designation.

Please, using the incorrect terms to refer to things indicates to me that you have zero idea what you are talking about. One may think being vague and directing people to “look into” JSOC makes you sound mysterious but there is really nothing nefarious about it. Classified sure – nefarious nope.