Why is no one touching this remark?

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Why are you turning this on me?

Because you da guy what wrote da thread !

No, I'm not meaning to do that really. you must know I jest !

To be continued :

edit on 10-1-2013 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

Oh yeah! You jest what? Oh, never mind.

reply to post by jiggerj


I jest like Jiggers. IDK I got noth'in..

reply to post by jiggerj

The apostles supposedly watched Jesus bring people back from the dead, heal the blind and crippled, feed a multitude on a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish, turn water into wine, cast demons into pigs that ran off a cliff... And they didn't have enough faith? If all these things weren't enough, what would dying do? And what would dying do that watching him rise into the heavens wouldn't do? If he wasn't crucified and just floated up off the ground, I would have been VERY impressed!

Jigger, your talk about these events like they were circus acts like we would watch them on YouTube. Jesus did not perform miracles to get them to believe he was the messiah. Jesus was not going, and now for my next trick. There were people already doing that. Look at the exchange between Simon the magician and the apostles in Acts 8:9-25

But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the power of God that is called Great." (Acts 8:9, 10 ESV

Even when Jesus had the world stage in front of Pilate, he said only one sentence. No press conference or grand speech telling the people how wrong they were, or brag about how much pain he could endure.

And Pilate asked him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" And he answered him, "You have said so." And the chief priests accused him of many things. And Pilate again asked him, "Have you no answer to make? See how many charges they bring against you." But Jesus made no further answer, so that Pilate was amazed. (Mark 15:2-5 ESV)

Your focused on why Jesus had to die, think about how he died. In his death the way it played out he fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament. As well establish and continue Gods display of omniscients through humility. One of Gods major theams, is the first shall be last the last shall be first, The meek shall Inherit the earth, and use the week to confound the wise.

It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom. So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it’s all nonsense. But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. This foolish plan of God is wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God’s weakness is stronger than the greatest of human strength. (1 Corinthians 1:22-25 NLT)

The pharisees and the apostles were expecting a very different messiah, the pharisees were looking for a king to kick some Roman butt so they could get back to their rituals and feasts. The disciples did not have our perspective on the events. We read it now and its like duh Peter what were you thinking.

You could almost hear the gears grinding in their heads as the disiples see Jesus alive, risen, replaying his words in their head. "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up". And I'm sure Peter remembers this

And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he said this plainly. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. (Mark 8:31, 32 ESV)

They couldn't believe because they were expecting the obvious, even when Jesus tried to explain it they brushed him off. Something's don't make sense because we refuse to adjust our expectations, because in our human nature we assume we are right in our thinking. We stare at the smears on the canvas and it doesn't make sence, if we step back get a bigger perspective we might be able to understand the artist intentions.

Then you might be really impressed.

Sorry for the long post I got on a roll.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by jiggerj

It is only when you come to the present moment and forget the past and forget the future that you will feel the presence (of God). But one must die to feel Gods presence.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

You do realize that you contradicted yourself with this statement, right?

As for forgetting the past and future, I do that all the time. Like right now. I am so involved with you and others right now, that I am living JUST in this present moment. I do this even when I'm reading a good book. But then you say we can't feel god's presence until we're dead. So, I don't know where to go from there.

No, i don't see how i contradicted myself with that statement, maybe you could explain how.

How can you not see it? You wrote "It is only when you come to the present moment and forget the past and forget the future that you will feel the presence (of God). But one must die to feel Gods presence."

If right now I'm living in the present moment, then you say I will feel the presence of god, and then you say this is not so because one must die to feel god's presence. Which is it?

As i said before, you don't seem to understand what i wrote as you have misquoted me. The statement you quoted is actually split into two paragraphs. So no, i did not write it how you have quoted it.
Maybe you don't know how to read and comprehend.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
The original sin was to be separated from God (the presence of the lord). Humans are separated from the presence (of God) by living in time. It is only when you come to the present moment and forget the past and forget the future that you will feel the presence (of God).
But one must die to feel Gods presence. The person you 'think' you are is lost in thought, lost in time.

How can you not see how you have ignored my last post telling you this?

I can see you are not actually interested in learning anything. You are a hard and fast atheist that is just out to ridicule, it is quite obvious you are not serious about finding any answers to your questions, so i will not waste your time explaining my post further.

It amazes me how religious you atheists are. Religiously writing on a religion thread all the time, so strong in your beliefs and so blind to the truth.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

The original sins still exists from the garden since most people cannot stop eating the apple of duality thinking they know right from wrong. Even I have a problem stopping,

Duality isn't the problem. It's judging that gets us in trouble.

To judge. What is that, to judge whom in their right mind could reasonably do such a thing. For myself AfterInfinity I would have to be a grand being. Here is the thing, judgement means you are being scoped, scrutinized, evaluated, looked over, and to what purpose? and by whom? Dare they do this to you or anyone of metal. The original sin was always the taking of knoweledge disallowed yet the threat of whatever the forbearance humans had to undertake as aftermath was water under the bridge (Foresight). No one is wrong all happened as planned.

reply to post by Observationalist

The apostles supposedly watched Jesus bring people back from the dead, heal the blind and crippled, feed a multitude on a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish, turn water into wine, cast demons into pigs that ran off a cliff... And they didn't have enough faith? If all these things weren't enough, what would dying do? And what would dying do that watching him rise into the heavens wouldn't do? If he wasn't crucified and just floated up off the ground, I would have been VERY impressed!

Jigger, you talk about these events like they were circus acts like we would watch them on YouTube. Jesus did not perform miracles to get them to believe he was the messiah.

I'm sorry, Obs, but it is you that is seeing these things as a circus act. You came up with this idea. All I did was list the supposed miracles of Jesus that the apostles were witness to. If you were there, if you saw all of these miracles, would you also need to see Jesus crucified in order to believe?

Also, if you witnessed everything that Jesus did, would you even think of betraying him?

reply to post by vethumanbeing

No one is wrong all happened as planned.

All happened as planned, yes from the standpoint of Father, yes. But, others do not see it this way.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

As i said before, you don't seem to understand what i wrote as you have misquoted me. The statement you quoted is actually split into two paragraphs.

You can separate them by a thousand paragraphs
and the two thoughts will still contradict each other.

reply to post by jiggerj


The disciples didn't have The New Testament to look at. They had Johns preaching (crazy man in the desert). They had the Old Testament, that they were not able to google and search.

They weren't the cream of the crop either, they were flawed just like you and me. If you take the time to read the narrative of how a Jesus interacts with his disciples you will see how ignorant and selfish they were, even right after they themselves had great succes and performed miracles in the local towns. They complain and argued with Jesus about feeding the large crowd of people the very same day. You can read it in Luke 9.

Look how hard it is to get you to commit, even with all your knowledge, and perspective, and after you have read and searched all there is to know about the life of Jesus. Right? Even though they were as close as one could get, these workers, fisherman tax collectors were not ready to commit with their hearts, but like Peter only with their heads. Like I said it was Gods Plan to establish his kingdom through humble means, It was not until the Resurection that Jesus's birth, life, and death made since to them.

To answer your question directly, If I was one of Jesus's groupies I gurantee you I would have way too many questions to convince me. I would have fled like coward when I saw them coming for Jesus. Why because the heart of belief, the core of Gods plan had not been fulfilled in me. My eyes could not see that salvation was right before me. Only until it was made know to me by God.

Read Luke 13 in it you will find part of my title.

While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. But their eyes were kept from recognizing him.....

Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread. (Luke 24:15, 16, 35 ESV)

The idea of a a king establishing his Kingdom by dying the most excrusiating way possible was not a common idea.
There focus was on the earthly realm, not the heavenly.

The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:9-13 ESV)

Think about this too. these everyday workers were all of a sudden given some attention and notoriety, they were In, so to speak with the next great king, so they thought. They had eyes for greatness in this world. I'm sure this blinded them from the truth. When Peter jumps up and cuts off the guards ear as they came to arrest Jesus, he was defending his position, his status in this earthly kingdom, he was blinded by his pride.

When they saw Jesus hanging on the cross they saw their place in the kingdom destroyed. It was only In this pit of shame and embarrassment, that Jesus was able to penetrate their hearts. In his appearance to them after his death, he restored the the hole of unbelief in their hearts.

Edit: Sorry I'm a little long on this, but obviously this subject means a lot to me.
I may not be able to articulate it as well as I would like or you would like, thanks for being patient.
Communication is a skill I'm trying to develop, observing and listening are my strengths.

Thank you

reply to post by Observationalist

The idea of a a king establishing his Kingdom by dying the most excrusiating way possible was not a common idea.

I thought it was very common for gods to be crucified? I haven't researched much of it because I already know of the god Osirus (or so I've been told). So, I just found these:

I. -- CRUCIFIXION OF CHRISHNA OF INDIA, 1200 B.C.
II. -- CRUCIFIXION OF THE HINDOO SAKIA, 600 B.C.
III. -- THAMMUZ OF SYRIA CRUCIFIED, 1160 B.C.
IV. -- CRUCIFIXION OF WITTOBA OF THE TELINGONESIC, 552 B.C.
V. -- IAO OF NEPAUL CRUCIFIED, 622 B.C.
VI. -- HESUS OF THE CELTIC DRUIDS CRUCIFIED, 834 B.C.
VII. -- QUEXALCOTE OF MEXICO CRUCIFIED, 587 B.C.
VIII. -- QUIRINUS OF ROME CRUCIFIED, 506 B.C.
IX. -- (AESCHYLUS) PROMETHEUS CRUCIFIED, 547 B.C.
X. -- CRUCIFIXION OF THULIS OF EGYPT, 1700 B.C.
XI. -- CRUCIFIXION OF INDRA OF TIBET, 725 B.C.
XII. -- ALCESTOS OF EURIPIDES CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.
XIII. -- ATYS OF PHRYGIA CRUCIFIED, 1170 B.C.
XIV. -- CRITE OF CHALDEA CRUCIFIED, 1200 B.C.
XV. -- BALI OF ORISSA CRUCIFIED, 725 B.C.
XVI. -- MITHRA OF PERSIA CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.
Crucified Saviors

I'm going to read some of them.

reply to post by jiggerj

Are you denying the historical Jesus now, or suggesting that his ordeal was nothing but another myth, now that's a convenient way of avoiding any possible meaning or significance that it might have.. good work Jigger, maybe by the time you die you'll have killed off Jesus forever.. but he still loves you. "Forgive him father for he knows not what he does.."

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Are you denying the historical Jesus now, or suggesting that his ordeal was nothing but another myth, now that's a convenient way of avoiding any possible meaning or significance that it might have.. good work Jigger, maybe by the time you die you'll have killed off Jesus forever.. but he still loves you. "Forgive him father for he knows not what he does.."

edit on 11-1-2013 by NewAgeMan because: typo

Are you saying that these other gods that were crucified and died for our sins aren't true or historical? How can you pick one and claim that all the others that lived before Jesus are false? I really don't get it.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Observationalist

 

The idea of a a king establishing his Kingdom by dying the most excrusiating way possible was not a common idea.

I thought it was very common for gods to be crucified? I haven't researched much of it because I already know of the god Osirus (or so I've been told). So, I just found these:

I. -- CRUCIFIXION OF CHRISHNA OF INDIA, 1200 B.C.
II. -- CRUCIFIXION OF THE HINDOO SAKIA, 600 B.C.
III. -- THAMMUZ OF SYRIA CRUCIFIED, 1160 B.C.
IV. -- CRUCIFIXION OF WITTOBA OF THE TELINGONESIC, 552 B.C.
V. -- IAO OF NEPAUL CRUCIFIED, 622 B.C.
VI. -- HESUS OF THE CELTIC DRUIDS CRUCIFIED, 834 B.C.
VII. -- QUEXALCOTE OF MEXICO CRUCIFIED, 587 B.C.
VIII. -- QUIRINUS OF ROME CRUCIFIED, 506 B.C.
IX. -- (AESCHYLUS) PROMETHEUS CRUCIFIED, 547 B.C.
X. -- CRUCIFIXION OF THULIS OF EGYPT, 1700 B.C.
XI. -- CRUCIFIXION OF INDRA OF TIBET, 725 B.C.
XII. -- ALCESTOS OF EURIPIDES CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.
XIII. -- ATYS OF PHRYGIA CRUCIFIED, 1170 B.C.
XIV. -- CRITE OF CHALDEA CRUCIFIED, 1200 B.C.
XV. -- BALI OF ORISSA CRUCIFIED, 725 B.C.
XVI. -- MITHRA OF PERSIA CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.
Crucified Saviors

I'm going to read some of them.

edit on 1/11/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Yes very common the torture carte blanch for me wonderfully done research.
You have trumped some very good expliesiAtes (made up word). Wonderful work lords of the crucifiied savior take your pick SALVATION Lord ARMY . Historical mumbo jumbo jambalaya.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Observationalist

 

The idea of a a king establishing his Kingdom by dying the most excrusiating way possible was not a common idea.

I thought it was very common for gods to be crucified? I haven't researched much of it because I already know of the god Osirus (or so I've been told). So, I just found these:

I. -- CRUCIFIXION OF CHRISHNA OF INDIA, 1200 B.C.
II. -- CRUCIFIXION OF THE HINDOO SAKIA, 600 B.C.
III. -- THAMMUZ OF SYRIA CRUCIFIED, 1160 B.C.
IV. -- CRUCIFIXION OF WITTOBA OF THE TELINGONESIC, 552 B.C.
V. -- IAO OF NEPAUL CRUCIFIED, 622 B.C.
VI. -- HESUS OF THE CELTIC DRUIDS CRUCIFIED, 834 B.C.
VII. -- QUEXALCOTE OF MEXICO CRUCIFIED, 587 B.C.
VIII. -- QUIRINUS OF ROME CRUCIFIED, 506 B.C.
IX. -- (AESCHYLUS) PROMETHEUS CRUCIFIED, 547 B.C.
X. -- CRUCIFIXION OF THULIS OF EGYPT, 1700 B.C.
XI. -- CRUCIFIXION OF INDRA OF TIBET, 725 B.C.
XII. -- ALCESTOS OF EURIPIDES CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.
XIII. -- ATYS OF PHRYGIA CRUCIFIED, 1170 B.C.
XIV. -- CRITE OF CHALDEA CRUCIFIED, 1200 B.C.
XV. -- BALI OF ORISSA CRUCIFIED, 725 B.C.
XVI. -- MITHRA OF PERSIA CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.
Crucified Saviors

I'm going to read some of them.

edit on 1/11/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Yes very common the torture carte blanch for me wonderfully done research.
You have trumped some very good expliesiAtes (made up word). Wonderful work lords of the crucifiied savior take your pick SALVATION Lord ARMY . Historical mumbo jumbo jambalaya.

I am in discussion with Wandering Scribe and this post would quell its ideas of lord thy Jesus in that so many came before It. So, Not So Special.

reply to post by jiggerj


You're just playing the devil's advocate as they say (not literally!).

Your argument, not only doesn't address the issue I raised about meaning and significance, but it's disingenuous.

You can't relevatize Jesus and the Gospels right out the picture in this manner, nor render it meaningless and insignificant within it's own historical and contextual frame of reference. In other words you're just being a prig of some sort a "grumpy old man" with a bug up his ass over Jesus, probably having to do with unresolved family of origin issues yourself. Jigger, this just isn't the best way to go about things.

Go after the fundies Churchianity all you like, but don't pit yourself head to head against the historical Jesus!

reply to post by jiggerj

I knew you would come through, your a man of very few words. Gotta laugh though.
Anyway I found a link that counters your list.
Link

One basically problem with this list is that there's no legend that ANY of them were crucified. www.brittanica.com gives Quirinius as the name given to Romulus after he was deified. Roman legend does not teach he was crucified, rather it teaches that one day, during a storm, the god of war carried him to heaven - thus the Roman legend is that Quirinius never died. Yet he's listed in Kersey Graves' "16 crucified saviours". Sakia died of old age at the age of 80 due to natural causes. Krishnah was killed in battle by an arrow, not crucified. Thammuz was killed by a wild boar, not crucified. Atys/Attis was said to have (accidently) killed himself when he castrated himself in a moment of madness (and caused more injury than he intended to himself). And Roman legend teaches that Prometheus was immortal and thus never died because he COULD NOT die. Yet all these "gods" are listed in Kersey Graves' "16 Crucified Saviours" as pagan legends that are strikingly similar to the story of the crucifixion of Y'shua. Where's the similarity to any of them???? I searched, but could find no record of Indra of Hinduism ever dying. Hesus was never considered human, and thus never subject to death. No record of him dying as a "god" either.

Have a good weekend.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

In other words you're just being a prig of some sort a "grumpy old man" with a bug up his ass over Jesus, probably having to do with unresolved family of origin issues yourself.

Ya see! This is what you people do! You derail a discussion when you have nothing to offer, and you do this in such an immature manner. Have I ever assaulted you personally? Have I ever said that your mama probably didn't breast feed you long enough, or that you believe in this biblical crap because you are a coward when it comes to facing reality? No.

I stick to the topic, offer sound reasoning with references that are aimed directly at the topic, and I only get sarcastic at the IDEAS that are utterly absurd.

For religious people, these belittling barbs equate to children yelling, "I know you are, but what am I !" It is really beneath you.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Your argument, not only doesn't address the issue I raised about meaning and significance, but it's disingenuous.

I wasn't addressing your your issue. I was communicating with someone else about how the crucifixion of kings (or gods or saviors) wasn't a rare event. And then you got defensive about the prospect that Jesus wasn't the first recorded crucifixion of a god.

I didn't even know about all of these events until yesterday, so I posted them with no hidden agenda other than to show historical evidence of multiple gods supposedly dying for our sins.

What I am surprised at is I didn't hear any believer say that they were ALL just one god expressing himself through different sons.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

You can't relevatize Jesus and the Gospels right out the picture in this manner, nor render it meaningless and insignificant within it's own historical and contextual frame of reference.

It wasn't my intention to do this, but I think the list of crucified saviors did just that. Sorry.

Originally posted by Observationalist
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I knew you would come through, your a man of very few words. Gotta laugh though.
Anyway I found a link that counters your list.
Link

One basically problem with this list is that there's no legend that ANY of them were crucified. www.brittanica.com gives Quirinius as the name given to Romulus after he was deified. Roman legend does not teach he was crucified, rather it teaches that one day, during a storm, the god of war carried him to heaven - thus the Roman legend is that Quirinius never died. Yet he's listed in Kersey Graves' "16 crucified saviours". Sakia died of old age at the age of 80 due to natural causes. Krishnah was killed in battle by an arrow, not crucified. Thammuz was killed by a wild boar, not crucified. Atys/Attis was said to have (accidently) killed himself when he castrated himself in a moment of madness (and caused more injury than he intended to himself). And Roman legend teaches that Prometheus was immortal and thus never died because he COULD NOT die. Yet all these "gods" are listed in Kersey Graves' "16 Crucified Saviours" as pagan legends that are strikingly similar to the story of the crucifixion of Y'shua. Where's the similarity to any of them???? I searched, but could find no record of Indra of Hinduism ever dying. Hesus was never considered human, and thus never subject to death. No record of him dying as a "god" either.

Have a good weekend.

edit on 12-1-2013 by Observationalist because: Added content from link

Ha! Good one! But, this is where I could use the religious mentality and say that the accounts of all the saviors being crucified is true, and your list is not true. I can say that Jesus was never crucified and lived to 100, castrated himself, and never died because he was god, but that doesn't make it true.

For me, this is like discussing whether dragons breathed fire or sprayed acid. Either way, dragons don't exist.

What IS relevant, though, is if the stories of these false gods were being told before the life of Jesus, then we can see where the events in the tale of Jesus came from. I wonder if these writers knew anything about plagiarism back then?