Why is no one touching this remark?

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posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 10:43 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 



For me, this is like discussing whether dragons breathed fire or sprayed acid. Either way, dragons don't exist.

What, Dragons don't exist?

Now your really bumming me out Jig.
edit on 12-1-2013 by Observationalist because: (no reason given)


Edit: Get this my wife just brought home the kids a kite she got from a garage sale, a dragon kite with fire on it!!!!
Its a sign, proof dragons do exist or proof we are brainwashing our kids to believe in dragons?


Let me enjoy my weekend and I will get back on topic.
edit on 12-1-2013 by Observationalist because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 11:49 AM
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If anyone still cares


Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Observationalist
reply to post by jiggerj
 

I knew you would come through, your a man of very few words. Gotta laugh though.
Anyway I found a link that counters your list.
Link



One basically problem with this list is that there's no legend that ANY of them were crucified. www.brittanica.com gives Quirinius as the name given to Romulus after he was deified. Roman legend does not teach he was crucified, rather it teaches that one day, during a storm, the god of war carried him to heaven - thus the Roman legend is that Quirinius never died. Yet he's listed in Kersey Graves' "16 crucified saviours". Sakia died of old age at the age of 80 due to natural causes. Krishnah was killed in battle by an arrow, not crucified. Thammuz was killed by a wild boar, not crucified. Atys/Attis was said to have (accidently) killed himself when he castrated himself in a moment of madness (and caused more injury than he intended to himself). And Roman legend teaches that Prometheus was immortal and thus never died because he COULD NOT die. Yet all these "gods" are listed in Kersey Graves' "16 Crucified Saviours" as pagan legends that are strikingly similar to the story of the crucifixion of Y'shua. Where's the similarity to any of them???? I searched, but could find no record of Indra of Hinduism ever dying. Hesus was never considered human, and thus never subject to death. No record of him dying as a "god" either.


Have a good weekend.
edit on 12-1-2013 by Observationalist because: Added content from link


Ha! Good one! But, this is where I could use the religious mentality and say that the accounts of all the saviors being crucified is true, and your list is not true. I can say that Jesus was never crucified and lived to 100, castrated himself, and never died because he was god, but that doesn't make it true.

For me, this is like discussing whether dragons breathed fire or sprayed acid. Either way, dragons don't exist.


What IS relevant, though, is if the stories of these false gods were being told before the life of Jesus, then we can see where the events in the tale of Jesus came from. I wonder if these writers knew anything about plagiarism back then?


Your source for your list is from an atheist agenda web site.
Internet Infidels

Although not perfect but at least somewhat more objective is the read on crucifixion on wiki. Wiki Crucifixion

Could the evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus be coroberate with history, can any of those other crucifixtion stories have coroberating evidence?


Crucifixion was used among the Seleucids, Carthaginians, and Romans from about the 6th century BC to the 4th century AD. In the year 337, Emperor Constantine I abolished it in the Roman Empire out of veneration for Jesus Christ, the most famous victim of crucifixion.[1][2] It was also used as a form of execution in Japan for criminals, inflicted also on some Christians


Will you research those other legends and avoid researching Jesus's claims, or is it a waist of your time and it doesn't matter, because you choose to have "no idea". Very convienant for you.



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 04:31 PM
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reply to post by Observationalist
 





Your source for your list is from an atheist agenda web site. Internet Infidels


And, that means the accounts of the other crucified gods were made up by atheists?




Although not perfect but at least somewhat more objective is the read on crucifixion on wiki. Wiki Crucifixion


Well, if you like wiki, there's this:

See also: Life-death-rebirth deity The concept of resurrection is found in the writings of some ancient non-Abrahamic religions in the Middle East. A few extant Egyptian and Canaanite writings allude to dying and rising gods such as Osiris and Baal. Sir James Frazer in his book The Golden Bough relates to these dying and rising gods,[6] but many of his examples, according to various scholars, distort the sources.[7] Taking a more positive position, Tryggve Mettinger argues in his recent book that the category of rise and return to life is significant for the following deities: Ugaritic Baal, Melqart, Adonis, Eshmun, Osiris and Dumuzi.[8]

Wiki




Could the evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus be coroberate with history, can any of those other crucifixtion stories have coroberating evidence?


Do you have any idea how many people were crucified throughout mankind's history? If there was a Jesus that was crucified, how does this make just him a god and no one else? If Jesus is mentioned in ancient scripts, and if this is somehow your proof, how did we come to know about the other crucified gods?
Through ancient scripts! lol



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 03:07 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 

So, are we saying that, either way the use of other documentation is like using fairy tails to dismiss another fairy tale? We could just call each others sources fairy tales.

I'm not a big fan of wiki, but its somewhat objective and its fast, if you want to agree to use it for this discussion, then I have another link for you to read.

Let me ask you an honest question, that if you don't answer I will understand.
Are you open to the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical person, that he existed?



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by Observationalist

Are you open to the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical person, that he existed?



I think his name has been recorded in non-biblical texts. So, it doesn't bother me one way or another if the man existed or not. Was he a protestor of Jewish laws? Fine, I can go with that too. Was he crucified for breaking Jewish laws? Okay.

Did all of the dead saints rise up and roam the city during his crucifixion? Did Jesus come to life after three days of his body rotting in a tomb? Did he float off the ground and ascend into the sky and into heaven. NO! It should be embarrassing for grown adults to believe this.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 09:53 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Thanks for answering Jig,
can we agree on the historicity of Jesus being crucified?
I would like to ask if you the same question in regards to the roll of Pilate and the disciples.

Obviously for you the metaphysical elements surrounding his crucifixion are a joke, That's fine for now.



posted on Jan, 17 2013 @ 06:55 PM
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reply to post by Observationalist
 





I would like to ask if you the same question in regards to the roll of Pilate and the disciples.


I don't have a problem with this. There are followers of religious leaders even today.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
I posted this twice in another thread and no one will comment on it. Surely, there must be Christians with a logical opposing view on it. Here is that statement:

The entire Christian faith is based on the premise that Jesus died for our sins. When Jesus died, God started forgiving those that sinned, supposedly. Now, if we come at this from a different direction we find something that should at least make everyone go, "Hmmm."

What if God didn't want to forgive sins at that time? If this god is all-powerful, then nothing and no one could have made him do it. Could the crucifixion of Jesus have FORCED god into forgiving sins? No. Remember, god is GOD! So, the death of Jesus didn't trap god into doing something, one way or the other. If god had wanted to forgive sins at that time he simply would have done it.

This means that Jesus died on the cross for nothing.

I hope I explained this clearly enough. And, I'd love to hear an answer, because as it stands right now what I see is that Christianity is totally debunked and the New Testament should be slipped back into the old testament. If the death of Jesus couldn't force god into doing anything, then we really don't know if god started forgiving sins at that time. And, his resurrection would have been simply another miracle as those in the old testament.

Awesome thread. I no longer identify as Christian, but this topic is one I've tossed around a little bit before. The god of Israel, the creator of our world, is not God. He just wants everyone to think he is. The canonical scriptures that have made it down to modern day are propaganda circulated by the orthodoxy, which is the mouthpiece of the creator in the physical. The motive of the creator is to keep us imprisoned in this world which is (one of the reasons) the canon has become corrupted over time. The reason the official story doesn't make sense is because of a series of omissions and deliberate mistranslations that left The Bible bereft of its true message, being that the kingdom of God and salvation lie within the individual.

The official church line is "Accept Jesus as your savior and you've got an E ticket ride to the other side of the pearly gates." which, as you noticed, makes no sense whatsoever, which is why faith is so important to the operations of the orthodoxy. Now, if we take that same line, and interpret it as an allegory for spiritual liberation from material existence by following the examples set by Christ (literal crucifixion aside), things make a little more sense: the Romans represent the powers that be in any given situation or epoch of man, Jesus represents the individual personality aspiring toward liberation from birth and death, and the cross represents material existence and the persecution therein of the people that follow in Christ's footsteps by the followers of the false creator god. In light of this interpretation, the church line becomes something more like "Accept yourself as your own savior, follow the example of Christ's life and you too can be liberated from the mortal bondage of your captors and be reunited with God."

You're a shrewd man who's not afraid of research. In your pursuit of the truth, look in to the gnostic scriptures, and avoid literal interpretations. You won't be sorry.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 01:36 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 

I guess what I'm getting at is to see if you hold that the history surrounding Jesus, his trial, death (not the resurrection) but the start of the church by his disciples, if you think those are historical events.
If so would that make any of the biblical accounts accurate in your mind.

Why does it matter? Not sure really, just trying to put the pices together. I'm a problem solver just trying to get as much info as possible. Not that your a problem, but its the conflict of beliefs, and understanding.

Thanks again Jigger for sticking around.

I'm working on an answer for the resurrected saints question, might start a thread about it.



posted on Jan, 18 2013 @ 04:20 PM
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reply to post by Observationalist
 





I guess what I'm getting at is to see if you hold that the history surrounding Jesus, his trial, death (not the resurrection) but the start of the church by his disciples, if you think those are historical events.


When it comes to all that humans are capable of, how can anyone say that this or that human endeavor is impossible? If the religions of today followed the teachings of a wise man, I would have no problem at all in believing it. And if those teachings became no longer valid over time (say a few thousand years) then no one would feel threatened if they were shown this. But, claim a god said it, forget it; there's no getting through to them.



posted on Jan, 25 2013 @ 02:27 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


I think that church history validates, and the fact that Chistians still today are being persecuted for their faith. The events that followed Jesus's death and resurrection sorta reshaped humans history and how we catarogize god.

Threatened is an interesting choice of words. Jesus's claims to being God threatened the religious leaders at the time. They didn't know what to do with him. They had the best chance in history to prove he wasn't god and killed him, but He popped up 3 days later and changed world History.

It would have been great if Jesus just laide out for you an itemized account for every proof that he is God, then we could all just get along. I doubt you would be so eager to belive someone who throws a bunch of facts at you. Your too smart to buyin to that.

If you look back in Old testament even the parables that Jesus used shows god values intelectual honesty and work. He is not the programming brainwashing type. He makes every effort to allow humans the freedoms to make their own decisions. Religions such as Catholisism works against this idea.

You and only you can decide to dust off that bible and read it. You might find you have something in common with Jesus, A dislike of the actions of religious people.

Blind guides! You strain your water so you won’t accidentally swallow a gnat, but you swallow a camel! “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you are filthy—full of greed and self-indulgence! (Matthew 23:24, 25 NLT)

Thanks for reading.



posted on Jan, 25 2013 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by Observationalist
 





You and only you can decide to dust off that bible and read it.


Here's the thing, Ob, I have been through that phase of reading the bible - several times. I read it to my kids when they were young. I had long talks with other believers. This was long ago, and yes, I may have forgotten quite a bit, but I've been there, done that, and I'm not going back. Now, as an atheist, let me ask you if YOU have read or watched anything that is contrary to bibles and gods so you can gain a more powerful perspective on this topic?

Actually, I don't mean you personally (I'm tired). I mean everyone should look into both sides of the argument (as deeply as they would read a bible), and if they are 100% honest and aren't trying to fool themselves or anyone else when they say they still believe, then I can't argue with that.
edit on 1/25/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)





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