Why is no one touching this remark?

I posted this twice in another thread and no one will comment on it. Surely, there must be Christians with a logical opposing view on it. Here is that statement:

The entire Christian faith is based on the premise that Jesus died for our sins. When Jesus died, God started forgiving those that sinned, supposedly. Now, if we come at this from a different direction we find something that should at least make everyone go, "Hmmm."

What if God didn't want to forgive sins at that time? If this god is all-powerful, then nothing and no one could have made him do it. Could the crucifixion of Jesus have FORCED god into forgiving sins? No. Remember, god is GOD! So, the death of Jesus didn't trap god into doing something, one way or the other. If god had wanted to forgive sins at that time he simply would have done it.

This means that Jesus died on the cross for nothing.

I hope I explained this clearly enough. And, I'd love to hear an answer, because as it stands right now what I see is that Christianity is totally debunked and the New Testament should be slipped back into the old testament. If the death of Jesus couldn't force god into doing anything, then we really don't know if god started forgiving sins at that time. And, his resurrection would have been simply another miracle as those in the old testament.

reply to post by jiggerj


I'm not religious, but I was led to believe that Jesus was God incarnated into human flesh.
So this means if Jesus was crucified for the reason which you state, that God also chose this reason, which was to forgive the sins from that point and also chose that exact time. Why? God knows...

reply to post by jiggerj


I thought Jesus died to remove the "original sin" not so that god would start forgiving sins. Any-who why are you trying to fight religion with reason?

reply to post by jiggerj


Glad to see you still around, my friend! Your post yesterday had me thinking immediate departure.

Okay, so here's the way I was taught to think about this.

God's basic nature cannot tolerate sin. Because we sin (due to the little apple incident), we can't get near God.

To rectify this problem, Jesus died. He took our sins with him, cleansing us. If we believe in this, then some magic occurs and poof! God can handle us again.

I think your logic is somewhat lacking in understanding of the faith. Yes, God is supposed to be everything, everyone, all-powerful etc.

But, in Jesus, God made himself fully human, in order to completely and wholly interact with humanity, on a level that burning bushes and stone tablets could never achieve.

However, it is important to try to understand the concept that, to Christians, Jesus was fully human, fully divine, both all at the same time, equally and wholly. This is one of those things Christians take on faith.

The reason Jesus was crucified was because he was a Jew preaching an unorthodox view on the faith. But he did, according to Christians, die and suffer to absolve all of humanity of their sins. It wasn't just Jesus who died, it was Jesus the man, Jesus the divine, God, and all of us.

Does that help in any way?

God was already forgiving sin even in the old testament, that was the whole purpose of animal sacrifices in the temples.Merchants would sit outside the temples with cages full of birds and other assorted critters that people would buy and take into the temple to be sacrificed for their sins.

The whole jesus was god thing is a bit dodgey. according to god himself the reason sinners can`t go to heaven is because god can not abide in the presence of sin because he is sinless and perfect and all that.
Then how could god possible come to earth in human form? earth is full of sin and sinners and sinful souls, how could god possibly be able to abide in the presence of all this sin here on earth since he himself said that he can`t?
if jesus was god than we have proof that god can indeed abide in the presence of sin and therefore there is no reason why sinners can`t go to heaven.
if jesus was not god then any human sacrifice would have been good enough to forgive mankind`s sin.

erm

his dying words were to forgive, as they know not what they do.

christianity is not about this comment

the image of jesus dying on a cross....and the cross...are emblems which are open to connotations and perceptions

christianity is a lot more than a virgin birth, ressurection etc

these are foundation storys for the prophet...NOT ABOUT THE MESSAGE

jesus attempted to free people from the tyranny of the covenance of cults spanning the land
which were left tugging between pharonic rule and new roman emperor rule

he was the king of the "jews" who was killed by the cults, who had a strong covenance in the middle east and with the emerging roman empire
who knows they probaby facilitated romes takeover of egypt

they are the enemy of the pharaoh
they became rulers of rome through catholism
now we know them as bankers

statless covenant pirates

reply to post by jiggerj

What if God didn't want to forgive sins at that time? If this god is all-powerful, then nothing and no one could have made him do it. Could the crucifixion of Jesus have FORCED god into forgiving sins? No. Remember, god is GOD! So, the death of Jesus didn't trap god into doing something, one way or the other. If god had wanted to forgive sins at that time he simply would have done it.

This means that Jesus died on the cross for nothing.

Purely in the interest of debate:

You're assuming "God" always wants to take the easy way out. Cutting corners, so to speak. Do you know what happens when you cut corners?

In any case, if he were HUMAN, yes, he would simply have done it. But he isn't human, is he?

reply to post by jiggerj


It is a salesmans lie that anyone can die for another person sins/karma from my point of view. You have to run up the hill yourself but you can have a lot of people cheering you on and telling you the way.



The original sins still exists from the garden since most people cannot stop eating the apple of duality thinking they know right from wrong. Even I have a problem stopping,

Jesus just went home and was probably pretty happy about it when back with the blessed soulbrothers and soulsisters not having to experiance the conflict and insecurities that we experiance on this level of being.

reply to post by jiggerj


God sent Jesus to Earth specifically to die for the sin of man. In the old testament people would have to sacrifice an animal in order to be forgiven for sins. Jesus being sacrificed is symbolic of those old testament sacrifices. In order for Jesus to be sacrificed he had to take the form of a man here on Earth and experience pain and anguish. Jesus is spoken about throughout the old testament, but he is refered to as "the spirit of God". Once he took human form he was known as Jesus.

reply to post by LittleByLittle

The original sins still exists from the garden since most people cannot stop eating the apple of duality thinking they know right from wrong. Even I have a problem stopping,

Duality isn't the problem. It's judging that gets us in trouble.

reply to post by smyleegrl


No matter how you put it, it still sounds bloody ridiculous.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Yep.

reply to post by jiggerj


Jesus died on the cross so that corrupt politicians and corrupt priests could remain in power corrupting the minds of the people. Leading them further away from truth and god.

Originally posted by LittleByLittle

The original sins still exists from the garden since most people cannot stop eating the apple of duality

apple of duality??

the Apple Mac apple....with a bite missing....
thats adams apple !!

represents temptation

just saying

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

The original sins still exists from the garden since most people cannot stop eating the apple of duality thinking they know right from wrong. Even I have a problem stopping,

Duality isn't the problem. It's judging that gets us in trouble.

Judging is a symptom of feeling duality/disconnection that for instance a certain behaviour/action that creates turmoil within us that makes us judge. If you do not feel the duality and is harmonious/accepting with everything that happens around you then there will be no judging since there is nothing to judge.

Originally posted by thePharaoh

Originally posted by LittleByLittle

The original sins still exists from the garden since most people cannot stop eating the apple of duality

apple of duality??

the Apple Mac apple....with a bite missing....
thats adams apple !!

represents temptation

just saying

The belief of the ego to believe it can judge right or wrong without walking in the other persons shoes. The belief that the mind had all of the knowledge/inputs/sensors in one single brain to understand the same thing that god from the information on earth can understand from the input of all humans and animals on this planet. The rejection of the oneness with god and using all the information that god had for a simplification of what is that a human brain can handle.

The human mind/ego cannot from my experiance even understand the soul hiding in the unconscious and the limitation to really examine all the input/output of the human body is so limited to the mind/ego.

Originally posted by ZeroReady
I think your logic is somewhat lacking in understanding of the faith.

Isn't the very well known saying: "Jesus died for our sins"?

I'd like to know what 'death' had to do with it? What does death have to do with forgiving sins. Whether Jesus is god or not, what did this procedure of crucifixion do that god couldn't do in the absence of crucifixion?

reply to post by jiggerj

On the cross Jesus was the embodiment of the fullness of the spirit of God, and sovereign ie: no means of measure can define his limitless love, while also taking upon himself full responsibility for the sins of the world as the embodiment of sin as well, and in so doing resolving the problem and the paradox in effect turning it (sin) out at right angles to itself (ie: into oblivion). The key to his power was obedience to the will of God who's will is love and he was "obedient unto the point of death even the death of the cross" (which doesn't mean he didn't thread the needle and survive the ordeal, by a thread) thus reserving both for himself and those who share in his victorious triumph, the liberated life of absolute freedom on the other side of sin and sorrow, suffering and strife, in the resurrection life.

Please, try to understand, without approaching the whole thing with utter contempt, prior to investigation, and do not mock his Great Work.

reply to post by smyleegrl

Glad to see you still around, my friend! Your post yesterday had me thinking immediate departure.

Aw no, darlin'. I did write that I didn't know if I'd be hanging around another year (though a year might be stretching it), but the point of that thread was to make sure I didn't miss the chance to thank everyone.