Why fanatics can't see the absurdities in their beliefs.

Originally posted by adjensen
Atheists who incessantly post anti-religious threads seem pretty fanatical, and absurd in their beliefs that they'll convince anyone but those who already agree with them, if you ask me...

Off topic. Trying to derail the subject. Religious, adjen?

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by JarheadFidelis
reply to post by adjensen

 

And I feel the exact way about religious people. Always trying to push their beliefs on others.

Most atheists AND religious people are not evangelists. It's just those that are who are annoying (on both sides of the equation, for the most part.)

edit on 2-1-2013 by adjensen because: (no reason given)

Off topic. Try again.

One of our friends from across the pond said it best.
You must be taking the piss friend.

Originally posted by JarheadFidelis
reply to post by adjensen

 

I prefer to keep my opinions to myself unless Im asked about them. Its been MY EXPERIENCE that most religious people dont do that.

Good comment jarhead, and I would agree about religious people not keeping their opinions to themselves. But there's a flip side to it. If they are simply arguing for the sake of arguing and showing how great they are, then I reckon they are pathetic, but looking at it a bit deeper. They might actually have a genuine (all be it mistaken) for the "well being" of one's soul. so if they have a genuine wish to help people who are "not saved" yet, then I can tolerate their outgiving of their opinion but if, like it seems many here on ats simply want to argue and show off, then I wish they would get a permanent case of finger cramp so they can't type and a permanent case of laryngitis so they can't blurt out their smart alec comments. I guess I'm trying to say that possibly there might even be a few religious people who are serious about wanting to help others but imo, the religion side of things isn't really needed to be nice to someone

Originally posted by watchitburn
I like it.

It sounds reasonable to me, and it would explain why it is almost impossible to have an objective conversation with religious people.

Or democrats and republicans for that matter.

You make a good point. The religious aren't the only victims to their neurons. I imagine that when politicians devote their lives to government, then for them, government becomes more important than the people it's supposed to serve. Politicians will lie, cheat, steal, and even kill to keep the government going.

I wonder if any general or admiral ever said, "Hey, we don't need so many soldiers today, let's cut back." The only way I can see this happening is if these officers are looking to use more of their budget on high priced weapons, and not to save the common citizen a few bucks.

reply to post by jiggerj


We are all conditioned by our repetitive experiences. I play golf well because I have done so with my father since I was a kid. I'm also a Christian because I was raised in a Christian home. I also should be a republican from my experience but I have re evaluated my stance (independent).

I'm still a Christian but not the brainwashed kind I was afraid I was becoming. I made a conscious effort to dig in to find out what the bible was about, and was satisfied with my findings.

I'm still a golfer and struggle to find the perfect swing, but I'm not fanatical about it unlike some who learned later than I.

I think what keeps someone off the edge of fanatical is perspective.
Time + Repetition + Perspective = Sound Belief
Time + Repetition + Myopic view = Fanatic

Originally posted by watchitburn
I like it.

It sounds reasonable to me, and it would explain why it is almost impossible to have an objective conversation with religious people.

Or democrats and republicans for that matter.

Hey w.i.b~
anymore nightmares about poopy diapered toddlers lately....LOL.
Kidding,.... you know I can't help myself

I would like to offer my understanding as to having conversations with "religious" people. Personally, I don't think religion is necessary for faith, nor do I believe that someone who may be religious is necessarily a person of faith. Men are great deceivers, first and foremost of themselves, therefore determining someone who is simply going through the motions of religion versus someone who is actually endeavoring to work out their personal faith, can be dubious, at best.

So how to tell them apart, if, in fact, you care to do so? You will know them by their fruit. Which is not necessarily to state that if you witness them doing wrong, they should immediately be labeled rotten-fruited hypocrites, for we all do wrong at some point in time. But rather, what are they producing with their life and in their actions? There is no place for hate or selfishness in the Christian faith, and judgment is reserved for Christ alone. Having said that, there are specific tenets of right and wrong in the Christian faith and whomever makes the personal decision to follow said faith must necessarily abide by them. We all have our demons to battle, and to truly love our neighbor, means to have compassion and mercy upon them while remaining true to the tenets of the faith. Snarky and smartass comments notwithstanding,....*cough*cough*guilty*cough*....ahem.....

One of the mysteries of the Gospel message, is that as you grow in it, you will ultimately find that you also begin to grow in discernment and understanding. What may once have seemed backwards and inane, becomes an epiphany of Truth. This is addressed in the Gospel several times by Jesus, Himself, however I will not torture you by digressing to reference them all for the purpose of this reply, but have no problem doing so in any subsequent replies, should you wish.

Anyhoo, once you begin to wander into the streets of "epiphanies of Truth" you necessarily find yourself in the subjective neighborhood of philosophy and metaphysics, which encompasses all faith-based religion. Thus, any effort towards objectivity becomes subjective and contingent upon faith. And faith, by its very nature, which is the belief, trust and confidence in something in which proof or evidence is moot, can be considered the unequivocal opposite of objectivity.

Therefore, that is why, for some, it may seem impossible to have a conversation with a person of religion, or of faith, or both, which is entirely objective and not influenced by emotions or personal belief. However, that is not to say that a person of faith is incapable of having a denotatively objective conversation. It is to say that the objectivity of the conversation is simply relative to the participants-- those of faith to whom no explanation is necessary, and those of no faith in which no explanation is possible.

And as far as Democrats and Republicans, any objective conversation with either is cyclical and a colossal waste of time since they are both wings of the same bird.
Can ya' dig it?

reply to post by jiggerj

Hey Jig~
Hope this isn't considered to stray too far off topic and you find it somewhat relative to your OP.
Good, thought provoking thread, IMO. S&F

...define, 'fanatic', and question whether it relates to yourself

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Winston Churchill

A99

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by adjensen
Atheists who incessantly post anti-religious threads seem pretty fanatical, and absurd in their beliefs that they'll convince anyone but those who already agree with them, if you ask me...

Off topic. Trying to derail the subject. Religious, adjen?

Am I religious? Yes.

Do I post pointless threads trying to undermine other people's beliefs, simply because they disagree with me? No.

As I've said before, I think atheism is a perfectly valid perspective, and I have no interest in changing your mind. But having a valid perspective doesn't make the preaching and evangelizing any less annoying than when it's done by people who do have faith.

Face it, threads like this are the "Jehovah's Witnesses" of ATS.

Originally posted by adjensen
Face it, threads like this are the "Jehovah's Witnesses" of ATS.

I had intended on saying that as long as the religious keep posting their nonsense, then I will continue to debunk it in any way possible. Even Dawkins now prescribes to being a militant atheist because religion is a plague upon mankind.

However, seeing as, more and more, I'm thinking those religious neurons (meaning, even when brilliant people start their religious thought processes) the ability to use logic just isn't in those neurons. Just like the paranoid schizophrenic, the more he is shown the absurdities in his beliefs, the more he will counter with more excuses. If this truly is the case, then I am just beating my head against the wall.

Maybe we should petition ATS to do away with the religious forums.

Originally posted by akushla99
...define, 'fanatic', and question whether it relates to yourself

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Winston Churchill

A99

Don't know who this is directed toward, but if it's me, I have changed my mind several times. And, several times because of the conversations here. If the logic is there I can easily change my mind.

Originally posted by jiggerj
If this truly is the case, then I am just beating my head against the wall.

As is anyone who tries talking sense into you, lol. Stubbornness knows no bounds on this or any other polarizing issue.

Maybe we should petition ATS to do away with the religious forums.

Or maybe you should just find another forum to hang out in and leave the religious forums to the... you know... people who enjoy sensible discussions about religion.

Originally posted by Observationalist
reply to post by jiggerj

 

We are all conditioned by our repetitive experiences. I play golf well because I have done so with my father since I was a kid. I'm also a Christian because I was raised in a Christian home. I also should be a republican from my experience but I have re evaluated my stance (independent).

I'm still a Christian but not the brainwashed kind I was afraid I was becoming. I made a conscious effort to dig in to find out what the bible was about, and was satisfied with my findings.

I'm still a golfer and struggle to find the perfect swing, but I'm not fanatical about it unlike some who learned later than I.

That's just it, a brainwashed person is the last to know he/she is brainwashed. When you speak of golf and politics, they are based on reality. There are choices to be made in both fields, so the ability to differentiate between logical and illogical is hardwired into those neurons that were created specifically for those subjects. You would never use a putter as a driver on a 400 yard fairway. But, you would accept that a man's death can somehow forgive sins. Death and the forgiveness of sins do not go together - there is no connection between them, but you won't be able to work this out with your religious neurons.

However, if a child is taught that magic exists within the bible (gods, devils, dead people rising, contradictions...), then the neurons created specifically for religious beliefs will not develop the ability to discern what is logical as opposed to what isn't.

Here's an example of an inconsistency int he bible that you will probably create an excuse for, instead of just saying, "You're right, that doesn't make sense." Every believer in the bible is totally convinced that their god is all-knowing. By 'all-knowing' we mean he can see the past, present, future, and he can even see every thought in everyone's mind. ALL-KNOWING. Yet, the bible tells us that God said to Abraham as he was about to sacrifice his son, "Now I know that you fear me."

That remark clearly implies that this god didn't know that Abraham feared him before this. But the biblical god SHOULD HAVE known this even before Abraham was born, even before he created the earth.

Is this a flaw, or will you make up an excuse for it.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by akushla99
...define, 'fanatic', and question whether it relates to yourself

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Winston Churchill

A99

Don't know who this is directed toward, but if it's me, I have changed my mind several times. And, several times because of the conversations here. If the logic is there I can easily change my mind.

...just having a bit of fun...

...logic fanatic?

A99

Originally posted by jiggerj
...I have changed my mind several times. And, several times because of the conversations here. If the logic is there I can easily change my mind.

Maybe it seemed that my earlier reply was "off topic"...but, if the science behind the OP is dead-on, it would fit well with my experience (thought "God" was killing me ------- for answering wrong!).
In conversations with those of "the faith" since, I have found that they (those I've talked with in these regards) could not explore any of the questions without circular logic (where the answer must skip-over the question) --- literally like the robot on "Lost In Space" --- "That does not compute. That does not compute."

So what was this earth shattering or should I say God shattering question you asked if I myself may ask you?

Originally posted by WanDash

Originally posted by JarheadFidelis
...the religious people I grew up around cant go to the bathroom without praying about it first. They talk about it CONSTANTLY.

I should probably know you.
Grew up in the same kabash.
Didn't find, until half a century had passed, that I was terrified of asking questions of my belief/s.
TERRIFIED
I had to kinda "ease" into confronting these questions.
Took almost 3 years before I finally confronted the most terrifiying question.
When I answered it, honestly...I thought "God" was going to kill me...RIGHT THERE.
...

Its disturbing. I thought it was normal until I got older and realized how dangerous they were.

Some, I consider dangerous.
Most, I still count "friends" (though they do not count me the same, anymore).
Like LoneWolf' said, though - there's a precarious line to walk in these regards - some people, if faced with having to answer these questions (being honest within themselves) will lose the only hope and/or purpose they have/find in this life.

Originally posted by WanDash
if the science behind the OP is dead-on

... it isn't, as it doesn't account for those who are religious and were not raised in religious homes, such as myself.

It's just the usual "these people think differently than I do, so there must be something wrong with them" nonsense that some use to comfort themselves.

Originally posted by WanDash

Originally posted by jiggerj
...I have changed my mind several times. And, several times because of the conversations here. If the logic is there I can easily change my mind.

Maybe it seemed that my earlier reply was "off topic"...but, if the science behind the OP is dead-on, it would fit well with my experience (thought "God" was killing me ------- for answering wrong!).
In conversations with those of "the faith" since, I have found that they (those I've talked with in these regards) could not explore any of the questions without circular logic (where the answer must skip-over the question) --- literally like the robot on "Lost In Space" --- "That does not compute. That does not compute."

edit on 1/3/2013 by WanDash because: coughed

Want to know what's sad? I understood this completely. I've seen it time and time again here.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by jiggerj
If this truly is the case, then I am just beating my head against the wall.

As is anyone who tries talking sense into you, lol. Stubbornness knows no bounds on this or any other polarizing issue.

Maybe we should petition ATS to do away with the religious forums.

Or maybe you should just find another forum to hang out in and leave the religious forums to the... you know... people who enjoy sensible discussions about religion.

If you are trying to say that I or anyone else is not allowed to speak their mind here, then you know what you can do. How about instead of trolling, you either contribute to the topic or stay out of that thread.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by WanDash
if the science behind the OP is dead-on

... it isn't, as it doesn't account for those who are religious and were not raised in religious homes, such as myself.

It's just the usual "these people think differently than I do, so there must be something wrong with them" nonsense that some use to comfort themselves.

You don't have to be raised in religious homes to build religious neurons. How many musicians learned how to play a musical instrument later on in life. This isn't magic. The brain must build neurons for the musician to remember how to play that instrument.