Why fanatics can't see the absurdities in their beliefs.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by adjensen

Maybe we should petition ATS to do away with the religious forums.

Or maybe you should just find another forum to hang out in and leave the religious forums to the... you know... people who enjoy sensible discussions about religion.

If you are trying to say that I or anyone else is not allowed to speak their mind here, then you know what you can do. How about instead of trolling, you either contribute to the topic or stay out of that thread.

I'm saying that if you have such a difficult time interacting with people who disagree with you that you would request that this forum be shut down, it's probably not the place for you.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by WanDash
if the science behind the OP is dead-on

... it isn't, as it doesn't account for those who are religious and were not raised in religious homes, such as myself.

It's just the usual "these people think differently than I do, so there must be something wrong with them" nonsense that some use to comfort themselves.

You don't have to be raised in religious homes to build religious neurons. How many musicians learned how to play a musical instrument later on in life. This isn't magic. The brain must build neurons for the musician to remember how to play that instrument.

And did it occur to you that the converse might be true? That your stubborn dislike of people of faith might be an irrational learned behaviour?

I agree, it isn't magic. There's something fundamentally wrong with someone who obsessively rails against a being that he says doesn't exist and derives pleasure from trying to make other people unhappy.

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by akushla99
...define, 'fanatic', and question whether it relates to yourself

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Winston Churchill

A99

Don't know who this is directed toward, but if it's me, I have changed my mind several times. And, several times because of the conversations here. If the logic is there I can easily change my mind.

...just having a bit of fun...

...logic fanatic?

A99

...and just because, the particular kind of 'logic' we bring to a subject, does not gel with the subject...does not mean it does not have its own 'logic' that escapes the logic being brought to it...that, incidentally may be incomplete, and inadequate to deal with the subject...

A99

reply to post by stupid girl

Hey Jig~ Hope this isn't considered to stray too far off topic and you find it somewhat relative to your OP.

Off topic? It was bloody BRILLIANT!

Originally posted by adjensen

And did it occur to you that the converse might be true? That your stubborn dislike of people of faith might be an irrational learned behaviour?

I agree, it isn't magic. There's something fundamentally wrong with someone who obsessively rails against a being that he says doesn't exist and derives pleasure from trying to make other people unhappy.

This puts me in league with Dawkins, Hitchins, and Harris. Thanks!

Originally posted by guitarplayer
So what was this earth shattering or should I say God shattering question you asked if I myself may ask you?

I appreciate the question/concern, but would rather not discuss that, here.
Apologize if that seems like a tease, but, if I had wanted those questions to be introduced to this discussion (or - if I wanted to debate others on said topic) it would likely derail the thread.
Perhaps in another venue... In general, I would prefer to allow others to believe as they choose, as long as their belief/s don't infringe on me (unless, of course, the discussion is directly related).

This is exactly why any half intelligent society would be teaching logic from the very begnining of school.. you teach the brain to reason, then it can't not reason.

of course our government wants us to be unable to discern what is true and what is not using our own minds.

Originally posted by adjensen
... it isn't, as it doesn't account for those who are religious and were not raised in religious homes, such as myself.

It's just the usual "these people think differently than I do, so there must be something wrong with them" nonsense that some use to comfort themselves.

Thanks for the reply.
You put some light on another slant...
Don't know that I agree with you, but...I have been wrong before.

could you please tell us why you chose your religion and why you believe it's explanation of the universe/world/howeverfaritexistsinyourbook?

I'm fascinated by such things

Originally posted by jiggerj
This puts me in league with Dawkins, Hitchins, and Harris. Thanks!

Well, Dawkins has been called a coward by fellow atheists for hiding from William Craig Lane, Hitchens is dead, and Harris recently said that religion is worse than rape and that people who believe certain things can be justifiably killed, so I'm not sure I'd be throwing my hat into that ring.

reply to post by jiggerj

Jesus was not crucified. God saved him alive to the skies.
even if he was crucified and ascent from his grave, it is possible and my wisdom deduces that the first creator is far more powerful.
fanaticism, mistranslated divine books and corrupted clerics have nothing to do with God. he does not need that I defend him. he is inside of every people and even pure wisdom can witness it's existence.

reply to post by jiggerj


Interesting title, one could say that you yourself are a fanatic who can't see the absurdity in his beliefs. By your logic, no one should believe anything because belief is where learning stops.

So tell me what's the point of learning anything if you refuse to believe anything you learn?

Originally posted by Bone75
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Interesting title, one could say that you yourself are a fanatic who can't see the absurdity in his beliefs. By your logic, no one should believe anything because belief is where learning stops.

So tell me what's the point of learning anything if you refuse to believe anything you learn?

Scientists don't believe in science, they develop models that seem to fit. they acquire data that backs up claims.

science isnt about believing, its about knowing or being able to determine something. This is often a point that religious people fail to understand. its also often a point that many claimed science-based thinkers fail to understand. The point is science is not a belief that something is so, its more like 'these experiments have shown suchandsuch. Some people take it to the level that they believe the explanation will apply to all future situations in which the same phenomenon is seen, but this is not something that can be proven - its a perfect example of the difference between believing and knowing.

reply to post by stupid girl


Nope, no recent baby nightmares

I can agree with your position there.
Perhaps I should have been more specific. The OP was speaking about fanatics, and in my opinion there is a big difference between being religious and being a fanatic.
I don't have a problem with people who are religious, everyone is entitled to their beliefs. I generally try not to hold it against them. I have quite a few friends who are very religious, and we get along just fine. If our conversations begin to get heated we call a truce and just recognize that we are not going to agree and move on.

Then there are the fanatics who can't have a simple discussion about rare vs. medium steak without having to inject their particular brand of religious indoctrination into it. Who also refuse to drop the conversation, and get angry with you for not agreeing with them. These people are just plain unreasonable, and the cause for the countless murders, genocides and atrocities attributed to religions throughout our history.

Originally posted by maes2
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Jesus was not crucified. God saved him alive to the skies.

even if he was crucified and ascent from his grave, it is possible and my wisdom deduces that the first creator is far more powerful.
fanaticism, mistranslated divine books and corrupted clerics have nothing to do with God. he does not need that I defend him. he is inside of every people and even pure wisdom can witness it's existence.

According to your thinking there is no need for the commandment of Thous shalt not murder. If you believe we live on after death, be it in heaven or hell, then there's no such thing as murder. So, if Jesus wasn't murdered for our sins there's no need for the Christian religion.

Originally posted by Bone75
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Interesting title, one could say that you yourself are a fanatic who can't see the absurdity in his beliefs. By your logic, no one should believe anything because belief is where learning stops.

So tell me what's the point of learning anything if you refuse to believe anything you learn?

How does faith in fact-less beliefs constitute learning?

Originally posted by cartesia

Originally posted by Bone75
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Interesting title, one could say that you yourself are a fanatic who can't see the absurdity in his beliefs. By your logic, no one should believe anything because belief is where learning stops.

So tell me what's the point of learning anything if you refuse to believe anything you learn?

Scientists don't believe in science, they develop models that seem to fit. they acquire data that backs up claims.

science isnt about believing, its about knowing or being able to determine something. This is often a point that religious people fail to understand. its also often a point that many claimed science-based thinkers fail to understand. The point is science is not a belief that something is so, its more like 'these experiments have shown suchandsuch. Some people take it to the level that they believe the explanation will apply to all future situations in which the same phenomenon is seen, but this is not something that can be proven - its a perfect example of the difference between believing and knowing.

at last!. someone who sees the falacy of religion. Your post is spot on and in my opinion, exactly on topic. It shows the difference between belief and scientifically proven facts and the method used by normal people to hypothesise, test the hypothesis and act according to the results of said tests. You have explained how science does NOT fall for some indoctrinating dogma

The mind is an exceptionally powerful device and one gets the feeling that we have barely tapped into its full potential. It is no wonder then that people can be programmed to develop mindsets that are extremely resistant to change, despite how logical and reasonable the new information they have encountered happens to be.

Any type of fanatical mindset is dangerous, not only when it is influenced by religion, but also in politics, media, moral issues, social issues and environmental issues (just to name a few.)

Thanks for posting this, OP. It's a refreshing take on why, oh why they cannot comprehend that there's simply nothing there.

I find it frustrating and sad how atheism is attacked on the internet for being "annoying" or "aggressive". Before the internet, we were so extremely separated that we didn't stand a chance to connect and stand tall amongst the believers. I think that the web has provided so much potential for those who feel differently than the masses to come together and be heard. It's also a great way for those who really want to learn, to do so.

It's so hard sometimes as I'm literally surrounded by believers. At my work there are many and they have no problem spouting their beliefs and sometimes, I bite back. I honestly think that preferential treatment is given to those of faith as our management shows this too at times. One of my co-workers was able to get a supervisor job by obtaining a quick, concentrated "bachelor's degree" from a Christian "college" complete with bible courses. My family is all Christian and I'm expected to hold hands for some Holiday prayers, which is why I am rarely on time for said meals anymore. It just seems this cult is everywhere. They are unapproachable, untouchable and I often feel as though I'm surrounded by idiots. I find relief in the internet, knowing there are others out there that can think for themselves.

On the topic of re-wiring though, there are many of us who were indoctrinated into the cult of belief who HAVE managed to re-wire. But, it seems to be those of us who question; who doubt; who want to know, that have been able to take the long path to reason. It can be done.

And for those who have mentioned it, it's not a lack of Hope, that Atheism is trying to convey. There's a powerful strength in knowing this is all there is. To know that THIS life IS really what we make of it. There's great hope in science and what the future holds there. While it can seem depressing at first to comprehend that there is no afterlife - no great reward, you begin to truly live closer to the NOW and what you can make of it.

I just want to add that I wish my familial teachings had emphasized learning and science more. I can only imagine how much more I would have achieved. I know that I had to come about my knowledge the long way and maybe if I had NOT been raised Christian, I may not have become as curious and given the matter as much thought as I have. There's value in that, but life is so short, it would have been nice to have cut that element out and been able to focus that energy to self-improvement.

Originally posted by watchitburn
I like it.

It sounds reasonable to me, and it would explain why it is almost impossible to have an objective conversation with religious people.

Or democrats and republicans for that matter.

Your forgetting the same could be said of atheists as well. Data is data, thoughts are thoughts, pre-conceived notions are pre-conceived notions.