Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Why do you feel the need for 5 guns?

Well hypothetically speaking, a shotgun for skeet, a pistol for IDPA, a pair of black powder revolvers and a black powder shotgun and a lever rifle for Cowboy Action.........that's 6 and only three different shooting sports.

Another pistol for carry, a 300WSM rifle for hunting, a tuned pistol for USPSA, a AR for 3-gun, a wholly impractical shotgun for 3-gun.

We're up to 11 now. 11 individual guns each with their own purpose that neither other can can fill in for.

Should I keep going?

Originally posted by netwarrior
This is really nothing new. Federal Firearms Licenseholders are already required by ATF regs to keep a "Bound Book" detailing all this information. Woe be it to the lowly gun store owner that doesn't keep his I's dotted and his T's crossed in his bound book. I think the only thing that this bill will do is add state/local LEO to the people that can view the bound book...but really it wasn't all that hard to get the info from the ATF if you were a state/local JBT.

There are other issues that require immediate attention.

You are joking right?? This is ALL new buddy. A firearm is legalease for handgun, however no records of centerfire or rimfire long guns have ever been kept. In fact, it is against the law for ATF to keep those records over 90 days.

This bill now makes info on long gun sales available to any LEO. Please, if you wanna derail my thread by muddying the waters, do so with good info, not half truths. Thanks.

Originally posted by lolita64
So you say they want to vote on 6 gun control bills on January 9, what are the bills exactly?

That traitor Cuomo has mentionned confiscation a week or so ago... any bill would do that?? Any bill to ban certain types of guns? Any bill to ban certain magazines?

Anything real? Because what you posted in the OP, they are already required to do so.

Think of your logic. If these laws were already in effect, there would be no need to make new ones would there.

The record keeping of center or rimfire long guns has never been a law....ever in history. In this state or any other. Please, as I told the other poster, before derailing my thread with nonsense, please read the current laws as they stand. You will see NO MENTION of anything I have provided as far as recordkeeping for shotguns.

For crisake, why even input your two cents when it isnt even worth one cent? Learn the laws, then come apologize.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

When guns are used to shoot up schools, malls, cinemas are they still good?

They are neither good nor evil. It's impossible for an object to posses moral value.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

When guns are used to shoot up schools, malls, cinemas are they still good?

They are neither good nor evil. It's impossible for an object to posses moral value.

Ok what about child porn? or an iron maiden (medieval torture device)?

Are they ok? they should be since as objects they posses no moral value.

Im being deliberately obtuse here but I hope you get my point.
Guns are used to kill, Exclusively and therefore morally wrong!!!!!!!

Sure you use them for sport, good for you. Your in the vast minority of the 100+ Million REGISTERED gun owners. God only knows how many actual gun owners there are including criminals and maniacs due to how easily available they are.

Once again I broke my self imposed ban on posting in guns threads.
You guys will never see things the way I do and Ill never see it the way you do.

I sincerely hope none of you on here ever lose a loved one due to some crazy getting hold of a gun and losing his S***

In order to curb the people who are dying to show how ignorant they are of the LAW, the following will prove that these provisions are not, nor have they ever been part of any gun law.

Many are claiming that the government has always been privvy to the documentation the store keeps. That is patently untrue. Its ignorant to think otherwise. The 4473 is documentation the dealer must keep in case ATF does an audit of their firearms...no personal information on those forms has ever been used in anything besides an OPEN criminal case.

Here are the current Federal laws in which it is obvious my claims are FACTS, not some crap I made up off the top of my head.


NICS requirements...straight from fbi.gov:

"NICS is not to be used as a Federal registry of firearms and MUST DESTROY all identifying information prior to the start of the next business day."


From the Firearm Owners Protection Act

"No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of FOPA may require that ANY records be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to ANY facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States Government, ANY STATE, or political subdivision thereof. NOR, any system of regulations of firearm transactions or disposition to be established."

That right there says everything there needs to be said to anyone claiming these new Bills are already laws. Lets move on...

Brady Handgun Violence Protection Act of 1993:

"The ATF and its proxies are BARRED from sharing ANY documents pertaining to the identity of anyone purchasing a handgun, rifle, or shotgun."
"Records must be destroyed by ATF after no longer than 180 days."

In April of 2000, Bill Clinton revised that time limit of records to 90 days.

In 2001, the DOJ revised it down further to just 24 hours.


Finally, we have the Gun Control Act of 1968:

"Except for in cases where there is suspected criminal activity along with a court order forcing the release of information, the GAC PROHIBITS ATF personel from inspecting the inventory OR records of a licensed dealer more than ONCE a year."
"While each licensed dealer is required to maintain records of firearms transactions, they are not required to give LE any records or allow any inspection except for yearly by ONLY ATF personel. IF however, a licensed dealer decides to allow LE the opportunity to inspect any record, the LE Agency is REQUIRED BY FEDERAL LAW TO DESTROY ANY AND ALL PAPERWORK GIVEN TO THEM WITHIN 20 DAYS."


Because ATF may not follow Federal Law does not mean a citizen has no recourse should they violate any of the above Acts or Laws. Nor does it make the overall point of this thread any less relevant. The active laws we are currently under unequivocally show that none of the propsed Bills up for vote in the NY Legislature have ever been law...ever.

I love how I post info gleened from impeccable sources and the rats come out to somehow show their mental superiority over me and offer only opinions. Wanna refute me...post facts, not conjecture. Whenever you see me start a thread, dont bother refuting the info, I am not in the habit of making myself look stupid so all of my information is spot on...period.

For the dude who keeps asking about the other 5 Bills up for a vote:
The other 5 as far as I can tell have nothing at all to do with owning,buying,or record keeping. Its mundane things that really dont do much besides require trigger locks in exchange for tax breaks and teaching gun safety in NY schools.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
How is this a bad thing

Their not talking about taking away guns or even restricting them, just keeping track of where they are and who has them. Why the hell isnt this already in place?

Because in America we have these pesky amendments known as a Bill of Rights that protect the citizen from search and seizure without probable cause and/or a warrant. Providing personal information on property owned simply because that particular item has been deemed dangerous is a violation of the 4th Amendment.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
Wanting a gun but not wanting anyone to know you have it just seems dodgy to me, if your not gonna use it for crime whats the problem?

I bet you own lots of things that will never be used in a crime do you want to have to register them with the government? We have a right to be secure in our persons and papers and to conduct commerce (buy and sell things from each other) without interference from the government. This law here limits one's right to dispose of or exchange his/her lawful property as they see fit.

As for NY - I have no idea why anyone would suffer to live there. High taxes, higher crime, restrictive laws and an invasive and over reaching State government. Move to greener pastures - it will starve the beast, without your money they will not be able to enact crap like this.

Originally posted by MisterMaster

You are joking right?? This is ALL new buddy. A firearm is legalease for handgun, however no records of centerfire or rimfire long guns have ever been kept. In fact, it is against the law for ATF to keep those records over 90 days.

This bill now makes info on long gun sales available to any LEO. Please, if you wanna derail my thread by muddying the waters, do so with good info, not half truths. Thanks.

I don't appreciate your tone, and don't understand your anger unless you are trying to fear monger and I just sat there and told you that your fears are unfounded. In which case, stuff it. You happen to be talking to a former (let license expire two years ago) FFL holder, so I think I speak with a bit more authority on the subject than you do. THIS is the reason why dealers (even Curio & Relic, 03 FFL) have to have bound books. If a gun they sell is used as a crime the dealers are how they track the firearm. THIS HAS NEVER BEEN RESTRICTED TO ATF. Sure, this makes the locals have access, officially, but they *always* have had the access. It was a mere phone call away to ATF, and it has been for years. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (some get pissy if you leave the E off) is always more than happy to oblige with a trace request to a dealer.

(1) Every dealer shall record the make, model,caliber, or gauge, as well as serial numbers of all firearms,rifles, and shotguns that are acquired,sold, or otherwise disposed of. Monthly backups will be required in case of thefts,fire,etc. All records will be made available at the request of the Superintendant (Capt of NYS Police).

Guess what is required info in a Bound Book? Make, model, caliber, serial number, date of acquisition, date of disposition, and their source/destination's name, address, and FFL number.

(3) Firearm, shotgun, and rifle sales information, including serial numbers, date of sale, and identity of purchasers, shall be maintained and made available to all Government LE Agencies upon request.

Again, Bound Book info.

(1) Dealers are to provide Government LE Agencies with full access to any and all documents pertaining to the sale or acquisition of all firearms, rifles, and shotguns.
(2) Participate in and comply with all monitoring of firearm, rifle, or shotgun distribution by manufacturers or Government LE Agencies.

Making official what has already been done for decades...

(3) (which has strange wording throughout, but I only highlight one small portion here)
Report all ATF trace requests of firearms, rifles, and shotguns on a monthly basis...UNLESS SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED NOT TO BY THE ATF. (Emphasis mine)

(5) Report any firearm, rifle, or shotgun purchases which appear to be straw purchases or otherwise create a reasonable suspicion that the firearm, rifle, or shotgun may be diverted from the legal stream of commerce.

To be honest, I'm not sure why ATF would tell someone to NOT report something. Those guys love paperwork.


So, here I have told you why this is no big deal. I challenge you to find one half-truth in what i've just posted. There are no half truths when dealing with the ATF because when you sell guns and do it legally, one half truth will get you shut down and thousands of dollars worth of inventory confiscated, and that's if you are LUCKY. Having a clean and very legible bound book is a great way to put your investigator in a good mood and that is the key to running a store and keeping your own butt out of jail.

Originally posted by MisterMaster
In order to curb the people who are dying to show how ignorant they are of the LAW, the following will prove that these provisions are not, nor have they ever been part of any gun law.

Many are claiming that the government has always been privvy to the documentation the store keeps. That is patently untrue. VERY true. The ATF can march into your store and spend as much time as they need poring over your 4473s. They are not permitted by law to remove them, however ATF can and does bring in portable copiers. I've seen it with my own eyes. Its ignorant to think otherwise. The 4473 is documentation the dealer must keep in case ATF does an audit of their firearms...no personal information on those forms has ever been used in anything besides an OPEN criminal case. Yet...this form will become evidence in a confiscation scenario and/or martial law scenario. Dealers are required to retain possession of the 4473 forms for 20 years, after which they may be destroyed. Dealers that go out of business send their 4473s to the ATF Out of Business Records Center in Atlanta, Georgia. This is where my meager stack of 4473s went when I closed my store.

Here are the current Federal laws in which it is obvious my claims are FACTS, not some crap I made up off the top of my head. opinion...read on.


NICS requirements...straight from fbi.gov:

"NICS is not to be used as a Federal registry of firearms and MUST DESTROY all identifying information prior to the start of the next business day." This is a true statement. When you call in a background check on NICS they only want to know handgun, long gun, or shotgun. The reason why they want to know handgun is so they can keep track of your handgun-related background checks. If there is more than 5 in 30 days, a seperate form must be filled out and sent to ATF. If you're buying more than 5 handguns a month, they want to know about it. Also..that must destroy thing is probably the biggest joke I have ever heard. When is the last time that this government was honest??


From the Firearm Owners Protection Act

"No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of FOPA may require that ANY records be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to ANY facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States Government, ANY STATE, or political subdivision thereof. NOR, any system of regulations of firearm transactions or disposition to be established."

That right there says everything there needs to be said to anyone claiming these new Bills are already laws. Lets move on...

Brady Handgun Violence Protection Act of 1993:

"The ATF and its proxies are BARRED from sharing ANY documents pertaining to the identity of anyone purchasing a handgun, rifle, or shotgun." unless it is an open criminal case. You can be charged with a crime for virtually ANYTHING nowadays. It is impossible to avoid. If they want to get you, they will find a way. If they cannot find a way, they will invent a way.
"Records must be destroyed by ATF after no longer than 180 days."

In April of 2000, Bill Clinton revised that time limit of records to 90 days.

In 2001, the DOJ revised it down further to just 24 hours.


Finally, we have the Gun Control Act of 1968:

"Except for in cases where there is suspected criminal activity along with a court order forcing the release of information, the GAC PROHIBITS ATF personel from inspecting the inventory OR records of a licensed dealer more than ONCE a year. this is laughable. I was inspected twice my first year, but I was warned ahead of time this is common with new licensees. I do know of cases where ATF harasses dealers four and five times a year with compliance checks. It happens.
"While each licensed dealer is required to maintain records of firearms transactions, they are not required to give LE any records or allow any inspection except for yearly by ONLY ATF personel. IF however, a licensed dealer decides to allow LE the opportunity to inspect any record, the LE Agency is REQUIRED BY FEDERAL LAW TO DESTROY ANY AND ALL PAPERWORK GIVEN TO THEM WITHIN 20 DAYS." Depends on the LE agency. I don't imagine it would be pleasant if they got caught not destroying them, as ATF does not like it when people thumb their nose at their authority.


Congratulations, your snide attitude has annoyed me. Please post more hypothetical conjecture so I can shoot it down with actual experience.

edit on 2-1-2013 by netwarrior because: stray formatting tag