Originally posted by luciddream
When people don't agree with them, they call them close minded.
1-All we need is some evidence to worth with...
My pet rocks talks to me, it doesn't always talk and sometimes it is very picky on when to speak, all i have is shaky image/videos of my rock and some vibrations, if you don't believe it you are close minded... sounds fair?
"I'm a closed-minded scientism thrall".
[who wants you to focus on what i say [and believe it] and not what i do]
Being willing to take a look at something and then refuting it is one thing but openly refuting things without a second look, or thought is close minded. Not changing your position or discouraging creative thought is close minded.
magical/shamanic/spiritual knowledge is not cumulative. and having somebody show/spoon-feed you the answers at the end of the book gains you less than nothing. at least in the case of academic/school subjects you pass the test
Would you ever change your mind and accept, say, that spirituality, theology, metaphysics, and mysticism were all bunk if someone presented you with scientific material which "proved" that such things were not real?
Skepticism works both ways. You can be as skeptical of science as you can of the metaphysical. I wouldn't be so quick to point to the skeptics as the ones unwilling to change their minds when presented with alternatives. The believers are often just as unwilling to relinquish closely-held beliefs as the skeptics.
Originally posted by BlueMule
reply to post by onequestion
Yeah, it's almost as if organized pseudo-skeptic activism is going on around here. Almost as if ATS is targeted by activism groups.
edit on 31-12-2012 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)
Again, the trend of modern science, as it has in fact developed, is Ahrimanic. The direct ancestor of scientific materialism was this Arabian science, which was itself derived from the Academy of Jundi Sabur. Thus, on the other side of the 333 AD midpoint from the Birth in Palestine was the rise of an active materialistic, anti-Christian world view in Jundi Sabur.
Occult history (as given by Steiner) reveals how this came about: Sorat intended to approach physical manifestation in 666 AD at Jundi Sabur, and to bestow upon the philosophers there a super-human knowledge. This knowledge was to consist of everything that mankind, under the plan of the regular Gods, was to learn through its own efforts by the height of the present, Consciousness Soul Epoch.
This epoch began in 1413 AD, so its midpoint will be 2493 AD. In other words, Sorat wanted to give to mankind, prematurely and without the requisite human effort and experience, the knowledge that would be right and healthy for mankind to achieve through work and evolution by the middle of the Third Millennium. The regular Gods' plan for the Consciousness Soul Epoch is for mankind to acquire, through self-education and self-discipline, the free, conscious, individualized human personality. If the mankind of the Seventh Century had been given this advanced knowledge at that immature stage of development, when people could not think in full consciousness, the result would have been disastrous.
Just consider how much evil mankind has done with the science we have acquired up to now, at our present stage of maturity (or immaturity), and then try to imagine what the relatively primitive people of the Seventh Century would have done with the science of 2493 AD.
This picture is bad enough, but we need to recall Steiner's occult insights to begin to get the whole picture. If Sorat had succeeded, Men would have lost the possibility of developing our true nature, and would have become egotistic, animalistic automata, with no possibility of further development. We would have become earth-bound*, and the earth could never then pass over to the Jupiter, Venus, and Vulcan stages.
The normal Gods' plan would have been seriously hindered, and Men would have lost their due and timely opportunity to become Spirits of Freedom and Love. -- However, the rise of Islam thwarted this plan of Sorat. It is a deep, mysterious paradox that Islam, which was, and is, opposed to Christianity in many ways, also in effect worked jointly with the Christ-impulse in history, by blanketing, by "skimming the cream off", this Sorat-science, and by watering it down.
Still, this science survived, and has worked on into the present day, but the worst was averted, for those times. The weakened Jundi Sabur impulse, as a distorted quasi-Aristotelianism, passed to the Arabs, over Africa and Spain, to France, England, and through the monasteries (e.g. Roger Bacon) back over to the Continent.
The "Realism" of the Medieval scholastics (especially the revived Aristotelianism of Thomas Aquinas) opposed this Arabian influence, somewhat correctly seeing it as inimical to Christianity; but with the decline and decadence of Medieval Aristotelianism, and with the dawn of modern, anti-Aristotelian "empiricism" (e.g. Francis Bacon), the diluted, but still powerful, Sorat-science came to dominate world-culture.
Baconian and Goethean Science
The true spirit of this kind of scientism can be illustrated by a telling metaphor coined early in this epoch by scientism's seminal spokesman, Francis Bacon. He said, propounding scientific experimentalism, that we must put Nature on the rack and force Her to answer the questions we put to Her.
This figure will speak volumes to those who meditate upon it: We, seeking information for whatever motives, are to torture the Goddess who gave us birth and nurture, so as to cause Her, through unbearable pain and injury, to blurt out secrets which She, in her wisdom, conceals from the impure and self-seeking. In much of so-called "physiological research" and "medical training" this is hardly even a metaphor; the torture unto death is quite literal.
The usual victims are animals, but all too many "researchers" are not above using human "subjects" when they can get enough power over them. And even a slight whiff of occult knowledge shows us a deeper meaning: The central rite of "Satanism" or "black magic" -- sometimes crude, sometimes sophisticated -- is the deliberate, ritual torture and killing of animals and, at a more advanced level, of human beings.
When done in a precise way, this practice confers knowledge and power upon the practitioner; also, it affects the whole earth, hardening and rigidifying it, to the characteristic Ahrimanic purpose. Thus we can see the hordes of "researchers" and medical students -- who hurt, injure, and "sacrifice" animals -- as undergoing an unconscious, Ahrimanic black magic initiation, which hardens, brutalizes, and Ahrimanizes their souls, and through them also the culture, and even the earth itself. (Sacrifice is the actual word they commonly use, not thinking which "god" they sacrifice unto.)
Vivisection is truly the archetypal act of modern science as it is generally understood and practiced.
In contrast to our Baconian science, there does exist a little-known scientific trend, inaugurated by the German poet Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. In the general culture he is known primarily as the author of Faust; but he was also a scientist, known for (if known at all) the prediction of the discovery of the intermaxillary bone in Man, or, less often, for his anti-Newtonian theory of color.
His mode of scientific thinking was quite different form the Baconian-Ahrimanic mode, and likewise he illustrated it with a telling metaphor. He said (in paraphrase) that we must approach Nature as a reverent lover, and, perhaps, She will whisper to us Her intimate secrets. The contrast to Bacon's metaphor could hardly be more stark. Also, the Goethean method of scientific investigation, in contrast to amoral experimentalism, is a method of self-improvement and self-development -- a reverent meditating upon the facts of experience, in the hope that they will speak.
A powerful spiritual being, called "Ahriman" (or "Satan"), will incarnate in a human body. The terms "soul" and "spirit" have clear meanings. Earthly/cosmic evolution is an outcome of the deeds of the Gods. The central event of earth-evolution was the Incarnation of Christ. Spiritual powers of opposition are active: Lucifer, Ahriman, Sorat. Ahriman is the inspirer of materialistic science and commercialism, and permeates modern culture with deadening forces.
Ordinary scientific thinking is only semi-conscious; we can, however, make thinking conscious. The spirits of opposition are necessary in the Gods' evolutionary design. Ahriman manifests especially at 666-year intervals; the contemporary is 1998 AD = 3x666. Goethean science is a life-positive alternative to Ahrimanic science. Ahriman-in-the-flesh will likely present himself as the Christ. The Christ does not reappear in a physical body, but in a super-physical, ethereal form. Ahriman may incarnate "macrocosmically" in our computers.
Mankind will acquire new faculties of thinking-consciousness and clairvoyance. Ahriman seeks to pervert these faculties, and to divert mankind and the earth from their destined paths in the Gods' evolutionary plan. Ahrimanic secret societies influence politics, finance, and culture. A false "Maitreya" is "emerging" as a false Christ. An epistemology of conscious thinking supports the expansion of consciousness to the perception of spiritual truths.
-Peter Carroll - Psychonaut
The basic principles of magic, like
the basic principles of science, do not change, but they can
become lost. Shamanism presents a very full magical technology
which resumes all occult themes. Mankind now stands in greater
need of these abilities than at any time since the first aeon, if he is
to understand rather than destroy himself. Shamanism once
guided all human societies and kept them in equilibrium with their
environment for thousands of years. All occultism is an attempt to
win back that awesome lost wisdom. Let us look then, at what the
traditions of shamanism hold.
Shamanic power[knowledge] cannot be progressively accumulated like
other technology. A shaman will be lucky if his own apprentices
make any advance beyond his own achievements.
Shamanic powers are so difficult to master that a tradition requires a continual
influx of talent just to prevent itself from degenerating. For this
reason shamans usually describe their tradition as having declined
from past glories. Only an occasional, exceptional practitioner
can win back some of the more legendary powers.
Shamanic power[knowledge] cannot be progressively accumulated like other technology. A shaman will be lucky if his own apprentices make any advance beyond his own achievements. Shamanic powers are so difficult to master that a tradition requires a continual influx of talent just to prevent itself from degenerating. For this reason shamans usually describe their tradition as having declined from past glories. Only an occasional, exceptional practitioner can win back some of the more legendary powers.