Does the Royal New Zealand Airforce need a fighter wing?

Originally posted by yeehaa
Lol i always had a amazing idea for countries like NZ in its postition. lack of cash+many needs.

DRUM ROLE PLEASE all welcome the F/A/S-3K SUPER VIKING. sounds stupid dont it... well stop the think for a moment.

NZ is isolated from many other land masses( so no silly mach 2 fighter needed ,you could see you enemy coming from 1000mls away at a nice mach.8 cruise)
US NAVY is mothballing the fleet of s-3. (that means there cheap)

upgrade the the software in the radar(same as whats already been done in reguards to A/G role)

In theory you could end up with a S-3 capable of carrying amraams/torpedos/depth charges/emergency SAR equipment in its internal bays.
On the wings you add more amraams to its already long list of harpoon/slam-er/bombs/cbu/refueling pods.. etc

Lock could even do a fuse stretch and add some more fuel or bigger internal bay.

all in all. the F/A/S-3 would be capable of keeping a nice 1500mls radius of ocean without refueling under its umbrella of weapons, and capable of killing anything from a sub to a fast jet(which would never happen,lol)

What a great idea, NZ cannot afford to keeps its A-4s going, By reducing its airwing to 1 Aircraft, the S-3 would replace the P-3s and the A-4s and bring alot to NZ armed forces.
looking closely at a map of the area makes you realise the distances involed, no normal fixed winged fighter or bomber could ever attack NZ the distances are just to great, even if australia were a sworn enemy its F111 would have a tough time making it the Northern part of NZ with a useful load and with air-refueling. Of course a carrier could attack NZ, which leaves long range bombers. b-52,tu-160 and so forth..
Any way you look at it. even if NZ had F16/tornado ADV it would still end up as a Mach0.8 with mach 4 amraams vs a mach0.8 40,000ft attack/bomber, the distances are just to huge for afterburning/supercruise/mach 2 intercepts, dunno about any of you but i wouldnt fancy flying a little fighter 1000mls from the nearest land mass.

Nice idea Yeehaa.

shame it will never happen.

Greetings,

I don't know much of the political position of the current New Zealand government. I have to say that I had heard about the fighter wing being disbanded in the form of a few jokes floating around, I was surprised to say the least at the lack of forward thinking of the current government.

They don't need a F-16 or Mig to complete they fighter roles, while they are cheap to buy, they are still rather expensive to operate... so why not operate a light cheap fighter that was based on a already cheap to operate aircraft.

As for possible fighter replacements...

Hawk 200

The Hawk 200 is a single-seat, lightweight multi-role combat aircraft for air defence and ground attack missions. On air defence missions, the Hawk 200 can attain two hours on patrol 100nm from base when fitted with underwing fuel tanks. In a close air support role, the Hawk 200 has a radius of action of over 100nm. For the interdiction role, Hawk 200 can deliver 2,000lb of ordnance at a range of nearly 300nm when fitted with external fuel tanks. The range can be extended by air-to-air refueling.

$12,000,000 to $18,000,000





Hawk 120/LIFT

Hawk 100 is an advanced two-seat weapons systems trainer with enhanced ground attack capability. The aircraft provides fighter lead-in training and navigator and weapons systems operator training. The nose of the Hawk 100 is re-profiled to accommodate additional sensors and avionics systems, including a forward-looking infrared (FLIR). The aircraft has seven hardpoints on the wings for weapon payloads. Short-range air-to-air missiles can be mounted on the wingtip missile launchers.

$12,000,000 to $18,000,000





Buy British
- Phil

[edit on 24-8-2005 by gooseuk]

The Aermacchi MB-339CB Jet Trainer of the Royal New Zealand Air Force is
sitting there doing nothing.
Maybe an upgrade in avionics similar to MB-339FD (full digital)
The MB-339 has the capability to carry a wide variety of US and NATO standard external stores under six wing hardpoints. The weapons inventory includes: DEFA 30mm gun (125 rounds per pod); anti-runway bombs; BAP-100 or BAT-120 tactical support bombs; rocket launchers for 50, 68, 81mm and 2.75in rockets; LAU-10a for US 127mm rockets or TB-100-4 launchers for French 100mm rockets; up to two Raytheon Maverick air-to-ground missiles; Matra BAe Dynamics Magic or AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles; and Alenia MK-2A Marte air-to-ship missile.


Or get the HAWK Mk 127 as per the Aussies version with started this series
of aircraft.
The Hawk Mk 127 features a full glass cockpit, new hands on throttle and stick control system (HOTAS) and new avionics suite. 33 Hawk Mk 127 LIFT have been built for the Royal Australian Air Force. The first made its maiden flight in December 1999. 12 were built in the UK and a further 21 were assembled in Australia. The aircraft received final acceptance into service with the RAAF in October 2003. The Mk 127 has also been ordered by the Canadian Air Forces and South Africa (24 aircraft). The first Hawk for the South African Air Force made its maiden flight in October 2003. The remainder of the aircraft (23) are being assembled by Denel in South Africa. Deliveries are scheduled to begin in late 2005 and continue to 2006. In February 2003, Bahrain ordered six Hawk Mk 127, with an option for a further six. The Stores Management System (SMS) enables the aircraft to deploy the full range of weapons from BDU-33 practice weapons to Mk 82 laser-guided munitions. The pilot selects the weapons by using the multifunction displays. The SMS has sufficient capacity to ensure that the aircraft will be capable of deploying future weaponry.
The aircraft has seven wing-mounted weapon stations, including missile launchers for short-range air-to-air missiles. The aircraft is also capable of being armed with the AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground missiles.

Originally posted by Jezza
The Aermacchi MB-339CB Jet Trainer of the Royal New Zealand Air Force is
sitting there doing nothing.
Maybe an upgrade in avionics similar to MB-339FD (full digital)
The MB-339 has the capability to carry a wide variety of US and NATO standard external stores under six wing hardpoints. The weapons inventory includes: DEFA 30mm gun (125 rounds per pod); anti-runway bombs; BAP-100 or BAT-120 tactical support bombs; rocket launchers for 50, 68, 81mm and 2.75in rockets; LAU-10a for US 127mm rockets or TB-100-4 launchers for French 100mm rockets; up to two Raytheon Maverick air-to-ground missiles; Matra BAe Dynamics Magic or AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles; and Alenia MK-2A Marte air-to-ship missile.


Or get the HAWK Mk 127 as per the Aussies version with started this series
of aircraft.
The Hawk Mk 127 features a full glass cockpit, new hands on throttle and stick control system (HOTAS) and new avionics suite. 33 Hawk Mk 127 LIFT have been built for the Royal Australian Air Force. The first made its maiden flight in December 1999. 12 were built in the UK and a further 21 were assembled in Australia. The aircraft received final acceptance into service with the RAAF in October 2003. The Mk 127 has also been ordered by the Canadian Air Forces and South Africa (24 aircraft). The first Hawk for the South African Air Force made its maiden flight in October 2003. The remainder of the aircraft (23) are being assembled by Denel in South Africa. Deliveries are scheduled to begin in late 2005 and continue to 2006. In February 2003, Bahrain ordered six Hawk Mk 127, with an option for a further six. The Stores Management System (SMS) enables the aircraft to deploy the full range of weapons from BDU-33 practice weapons to Mk 82 laser-guided munitions. The pilot selects the weapons by using the multifunction displays. The SMS has sufficient capacity to ensure that the aircraft will be capable of deploying future weaponry.
The aircraft has seven wing-mounted weapon stations, including missile launchers for short-range air-to-air missiles. The aircraft is also capable of being armed with the AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground missiles.

Hear Hear

It would be the cheaper option, not to mention the fact that as you have mentioned there is quite a following now of this fine little aircraft, not to mention its weapon carrage abilities.

::grins:: Buy British
- Phil

well if you have good anti-air you can make it without planes... But you still ahve to have them...!!!!!! Think, how easy would it now be to take over the air-space in New Zeeland...?

yeah i agree i cant really see any problem where kiwis would need to fight
as for one other thing who said australia doesnt have enough money to spend on its defence force?

to be perfectly honest.
even if some other country took control of our airspace,
it wouldnt do them the good that it would somewhere else.
New Zealand Army has good manpack portable ground to air capabilities.
not much but it would really piss someone off.
and regardless of airpower you still need infantry on the ground.
you cant win with just planes in the air.
and New Zealand Army has very comprehensive plans to deal with such an event.
there are two main forces in New Zealand.
The North Island has 1 RNZIR. and all the TF units.
The South Island has 2/1 RNZIR.
(my old unit)
and all the TF units.
the plan is to draw back, let them take what they want and then let them come into the New Zealand bush.
you all heard of what New Zealand soldiers are famous for.........?
bush and jungle work.
and where do you think we do our training for that kind of thing?
we dont go overseas for something we have right here.
if a soldier get seperated from his unit he would still know the entire area like the back of his hand.
we would be to good for anybody to defeat us before help could arrive in the form of Aussie's and British.
and they would come.
not question about it.
if New Zealand needed help,
lets face it.
the world would be lining up to come to our aid.
if only because we always go to help them.
ALWAYS!!
and dont tell me "what about Iraq".
because we did go there.
and Afghanistan.
and Timor and solomon island and sinai and bosnia gods knows every other damn conflict from here to the edge of the world!!!
we dont need a fighter wing we only need to hang on till your fighters arrive to help us!!!!

[edit on 25-8-2005 by Wardr08e]

the RNZA really doesn't need a wing of uber-super hyper-jets. I'd say give 'em some cheaper jets that can be used for interception. If we were years back I'd say give 'em the F-106, but as it happens it's no longer a great modern interceptor . So I'd say give them a few F-35s.

They don't need F/A-22's. They just don't.

iv noticed a disturbing trend on this thread to call the Royal New Zealand Air Force RZNA.
its RNZAF.
sorry just thought i would point that out

"New Zealand hasn't offended anyone except the Indonesians and they needed sorting out anyway."

88 Australians were killed in Bali because we "sorted out" the Indonesians. Then they blew up our embassy for good measure.

Don't fool yourself. Extremists don't care about your environmental or anti-nuclear stances, they want their Caliphate and you got in the way.

In light of the offer of F16s, I'd say Fighting Falcon is the prime choice. First world, multi-misson fighter.

Without it I would have suggested Freedom Fighter/Tiger II. Is the Northrop A2A refuelable? For over twenty years it has been the "democratic" Asian choice of cheap US product.

The CF188 is probably a better choice than F16. Commonality with the RAAF (to an extent), your most likely partner in any hostilities (unless we invade you!) and maritime based design. But how long have the Canadian Hornets been sitting?

If you've already got BAe Hawks, then go the whole hog. Commonality with the Australian LIF trainer, convertible to armed interceptor/ground attack and it extends the Australian strategic reserve handily! We can fly off your strips without importing maintenance gear and bomb stores, you can fly off ours.
The Gulf states all fly Hawks, and they've got a lot more to spend than NZ.

Given a choice I agree about New Zealand buying Hawks, but if that is determined to be too expensive then how about the F-5. All that is needed is a radar upgrage and the addition of AMRAAM capability. Shouldn't be too expensive. I agree with the post stating that all that is needed is an interceptor. The F-5 fits the bill fairly well. Quick dash speed, fair maneuverability and the bonus of having two engines for overwater flights. If there is enough funds buying a few of the S-3 couldn't hurt. Use them for maritime patrol and strike, SAR and as tankers.

And what ,Howlrunner, did east timor have to do with any fundamentalist muslim agenda's?
how do you get the muslim's wont be happy thats why they bombed us in bali,
from we got rid of the militia's from somewhere they shouldnt have been in the first place?
the majority of the extremist community in indonesia are in area's like aceh who are trying to break away from greater indonesia.
well aceh isnt anymore but i would be surprised if that was the whole community that wanted to put down their guns.

Ummm. No.

Have you heard what Jemaah Islamiya's bent is?

They want to create the Caliphate based on Indonesia, incorporating Malaysia, Brunei (already Muslim) and Northern Australia. Hey, Allah gave them ETimor and we took it off them.

They regard Indonesian territorial integrity as the word of Allah.

And no, the Achenese are not Muslim extremists. They just want a different interpretation to that of Jakarta's.

point taken,
my bad.
i have to read up now.

SWEET AIRCRAFT

Kiwi Air Force should go for Tornadoes and Harriers. Personally ..... I doubt Helen the Destroyer will ever let it happen on her watch.

Mind you .... the whole Kiwi Defence Force could do with a spruce up.

A third Frigate. A couple of Corvettes (Meko 100's maybe?)
A Sqd of Tornadoes and/or Harriers.
Some C130's that arent older than the combined ages of the crews
Get some Bradleys for 1 Bn and QAMR and some decent Fire Support. NZLAVIII's are really a bit over the top considering NZ's requirements.
2nd-1st (God bless em) Leave em as Light Infantry ...... the Army has enough Mounted Rifles (Horse holders and cowboys)
And some decent air defence. Mtd as well as man portable.

I thought this prophecy was relevent in the light of the posts above...
War prophecies
Due to the zeal of the new Islamic state order over Indonesia, and because of the great outcry from Australia over human rights, the Indonesian Military will invade Australia, firstly at Darwin, then Perth and later the Eastern states. This attack will be in utter secrecy. They will attack with great force and overwhelm the western culture. They will burn much of the infrastructure to the ground.

Many thousands of Australian citizens will be killed as they attempt to resist the invasion. Eventually strict Islamic law will be enforced throughout the nation of Australia and no western forces will be able to stop it! All other religions, especially Christianity, will be crushed. Churches will be burned to the ground as a personal judgement from God because of their lukewarm faith and lack of commitment to their Saviour Jesus Christ.

God will use the Indonesian and Islamic lifestyle to destroy denominationalism and humble the Christians of Australia, causing true believers to repent and turn to God in fullness to God. This will bring a new and humble church, willing to do and obey explicitly the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ. As this begins to take place and the humbled church submits to Islamic life, great miracles will be seen across the land, causing many to turn to Christ. This will include some of the Muslim invasion forces, who will be shot if they convert.

This will ultimately cause a worldwide revival of dedicated Christianity, never before seen in our time. Finally, after a long period (of many years) of occupation by Indonesian military forces in Australia, the Lord Jesus will send an attack force against the Indonesians and destroy them. This will again ultimately release Australia from it's oppressors (as a nation now humbled before Jesus Christ) and destroy the Islamic Government in Indonesia. This will usher in a new era for both countries, Islam will not rule any more.

- David Kriss, Israel, crash.ihug.co.nz...

Originally posted by Netchicken
Due to the zeal of the new Islamic state order over Indonesia

- What "new Islamic state"?
Indonesia is a Muslim 'state', it's not a fundamentalist one and there is nothing new about any of that.

the Indonesian Military will invade Australia, firstly at Darwin, then Perth and later the Eastern states. This attack will be in utter secrecy. They will attack with great force and overwhelm the western culture. They will burn much of the infrastructure to the ground.

- They'd get a huge battering.
Have you seen their military kit?
Versus Aus' stuff?
I don't see much 'overwhelming' being done at all.

God will use the Indonesian and Islamic lifestyle to destroy denominationalism and humble the Christians of Australia, causing true believers to repent and turn to God in fullness to God. This will bring a new and humble church, willing to do and obey explicitly the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ. As this begins to take place and the humbled church submits to Islamic life, great miracles will be seen across the land, causing many to turn to Christ. This will include some of the Muslim invasion forces, who will be shot if they convert.

This will ultimately cause a worldwide revival of dedicated Christianity, never before seen in our time. Finally, after a long period (of many years) of occupation by Indonesian military forces in Australia, the Lord Jesus will send an attack force against the Indonesians and destroy them. This will again ultimately release Australia from it's oppressors (as a nation now humbled before Jesus Christ) and destroy the Islamic Government in Indonesia. This will usher in a new era for both countries, Islam will not rule any more.

- David Kriss, Israel, crash.ihug.co.nz...

- Oh jayzuss; it's some more of that dreadfully confused end of days gibberish.

It appears that to get rid of a nasty horrible Muslim Indonesia we first have to have a fundamentalist Muslim Indonesia arise, it then expand and takeover Austrailia (and nip down the way to sieze NZ too, why not, hmm?).
It's the Lord's (unnecessarily complicated?) will - er, according to some guy, so staggeringly arrogant that he really actually thinks he knows God's will, and is publishing it for anyone who cares for his interpretation.

.....I wonder if he's a poor and pious man or one of those who 'doesn't directly benefit' from his publications etc etc but somehow just happens to manage....ie to live amazingly comfortably?

Anyhoo, who are we to stand in the way of God's plan, huh?

Just as the death of Jesus was supposedly a fundamental part of God's plan to redeem mankind (thereby exposing the anti-Christian and totally heretical nature of anti-semetic Jew-haters who use the supposed 'death of Christ' or 'Christ killers' BS as some twisted kind of 'justification) surely all true fundy believers should warmly welcome these developments as part of Gods plan and the 'signs' of the rapidly (it's always 'rapidly' )approaching of their 'rapture' too, then, eh?

Shouldn't 'Christian' fundies should be clamouring for a less and less capable military in Aus and NZ (and surely the USA too then) so as to hurry along and hasten the day when the satanic and unGodly finally get off of their collective arses to 'have a go' and combine with those nasty Muslim forces, coming together at long last to spark off this 2000+yrs (supposedly) awaited armageddon?

I shan't be holding my breath.



IMO the only 'end of days' to be faced here is the one we all face when we shuttle off of this mortal coil.......ie when each and every one of us dies.
No one gets out of it.
Deal with it.


[edit on 31-10-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Your right sminkeypinkey
Indo aint going to invade anyone. Their navy is islands related, The airforce
is rundown, The army has obselete weapons.
Their economy cant support their arm forces.
I dont think they invade they get so much $$$$$ from AUS.


Buddists also.

The Indos might have an Island hoping Naval Force, an air force thats not worth the paper it's written on ...... But never underestimate the ENEMY

I doubt they'd attack Australia directly anyhow. First off ...... Secure Port Moresby and the nothern town of Lae, then follow up with a big drive along the PNG Nth Coast through to New Britain, to secure Rabaul .... then drive South through the Solomons. Maybe they could deploy diversionary forces to Nth Territry, Cape York area ..... knock out oil rigs in the Gulf of Carpinterria ..... just to divert attention.

US is way too stretched to come help but it certainly opens up options for China/Russia. Would they come support a bold move like that by the Indos
How would an already whipped and kicked Muslim world react to such a move?

Indos dont need Aussie money ...... Plenty of Arab/Muslim States, Russia and China would support that kind of move in order to secure Indonesian oil fields for there own long term gain.

Gen. Camel

Lurking in the tactics room