Does the Royal New Zealand Airforce need a fighter wing?

Some of you may not be aware, but around 18 months ago the RNZA disbanded its fighter wing.

The reasons were very political, but there were a couple of very obvious ones:

1. The fighters the RNZA were using were A4 Skyhawk's. Which whilst still capable, I think we must all agree were long past their sell by date.

2. The cost of keeping these ageing airframes flying was becoming prohibitively expensive.

When one looks at the physical geographical location of New Zealand it is easy to see why the Labour government believes that it can get away with its decission i.e. closest neighbour Australia is 2.5 hours flight time away.

However imagine this scenario:

"Intelligence has been received, from a confirmed and creditable source, that a Singapore Alines 747 has been highjacked, whilst on route from Changi airport to Auckland".

"No contact has been received from the hijackers and the flight deck crew failed to 'squark' that they had been highjacked. A garbled airphone message has been received that the highjackers appear to be Middle Eastern. There has been a confirmed sighting of a dead body, believed to be that of the Captain of the aircraft"

So imagine..........a 747 heading for the largest city in New Zealand, which has been hijacked and the Captain of the aircrft alledgedly murdered. No contact from the hijackers. Does it not seem madness that there is not 1 interceptor that can be scrambled to gain a visual confirmation of the situation????

Bearing in mind the cost implications what type of fighter would you equip the RNZA with????????

If cost was a major factor I would go with something Russian perhaps a MIG-29 unit cost $11 million USD. A Euro fighter sticker price by comparison is up to $60 million Euros.

If cost is a problem I think Russian is the best bang for your buck. $11 million for a pretty good fighter more then a match for any highjacked airliner. Sure there is better planes even better Russian planes but they will cost you alot more.

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The US Government had offerred some 28 F-16 Falcons with low airframe hours to the prior NZ government. It was accepted, on the basis of a lease agreement with a buy option. The government of Helen Clarke arsed it.

The RAAF was looking forward to some improved DACT with the Kiwis. Not to mention we thought they were going to stand beside us in a crisis. Not go mooching for support. As it was we got caught out. We leased an RNZAF A-4 Squadron operating out of Nowra for Fleet Support duties because the RAAF let the RAN down when we were forced to sell our Navy Skyhawks to NZ!.... . And people wonder why the RAN wants an independent Fleet Air Arm!.....Sorry. Had to have that bitch.

Back on topic. I personally think they should have stuck with F-16 lease. Apart from the intercept role with Sidewinders, and being air refuelable, they could also drop bombs but most importantly were supposedly going to be fitted to fire Mavericks...current versions both anti tank and anti ship capable...quite useful to deal with terrorist rustbuckets beating it in a RW hit and run raid (hey post 9/11 anything is possible...there were Kiwis in Timor with us).

It was funded and do-able, had benefits to NZs small aerospace industry (as would have the NZ P-3 full upgrade)

The other option would have been to trade A-4s to another operator and sold off thier Macchi MB339 and used the funds to use dual role BAe Hawks armed with Sidewinders...like the RAF planned back in the 1980s for an emergency PD role.....even a squadron of 12-18 to replace both A-4s and MB339s.

What idea did you have cat?

[edit on 25-10-2004 by craigandrew]

I agree on the F-16's.

They are cheap and very versatile. It is still quite a fine plane as well.

I would say that any self respecting country should have a fighter wing...

Well to be honest I'm still out on making my choice.

Russian - yes I agree they are good, but I couldn't see a 'Westernised' country going for a soviet product.

The F16 - battle proven, versatile, but getting on a little now.

Yes.......I will have to give this some more thought. What ever it is has to have a good economical patrol capability, with inflight refuel capability. I would not envisage that there would ever be a time when these aircraft would be deployed overseas, so the NZ climate would have to be taken into account.

With the above in mind would the aircraft have to have a multi role capability????

Yes the ability to intercept and fly the anti shiping attack profiles...and the smile say cheese shots.

Admittedly thier unmodified P-3s could put a Harpoon into a rust bucket just as well as a a fighter.

A proper fighter might not be necessary.Like I said a Hawk with Sidewinders could fly the point defence mission and it would justify not committing to an overseas venture. After all a 9/11 scenario has the bad guy coming to you, and NZ is not all that big or has that many cities worth hitting (no offence guys)

But it doesnt have that great a radar for finding its target.

F-16 is old but it is still a good plane. And how good does it have to be to intercept an airliner. Again, gives the Kiwis reason not to deploy. But I think it still has legs. Its not exactly under threat in a lot of coalition theatres is it?

A future NZ Government might welcome the political option of deploying F-16s. After all it worked for us Aussies deploying a squadron to the Gulf in 1993 and it has commonality with a lot of Coalition airforces...especially the USA.

Put it another way. Would you want to be flying a MiG or a Sukhoi near Americans in a war zone?

you could also look into the future f-35 JSF.

They will be state of the art and cheap

You could probably get 20 years out of them too. The more countries buy them, the cheper they become for everyone

Mad American.......are you a sales rep for US Aerospace? NZ has less money to spend on defence than Australia does.....a lot less. If they had F-35 and only two pilots to fly it....they would still have to flip a coin!

For NZ needs, including the hijack scenario mentioned above, I would say that you would get away with the BAe Hawk 200, a single seater, more powerful version of the well known trainer. The Hawk 200 is a fully combat capable version that is euipped with the Northrop-Grumman AN/APG-66H pulse-Doppler X-band multimode radar, with ten air-to-air and ten air-to-surface modes, derived from the AN/APG-66 used on the F-16A/B. It is also compatible with the AIM 120 AMRAAM and although obviously a far cry from 'real' fighters it does offer a low cost solution to cash strapped countries. It is in the same performance bracket as the retired Skyhawks but with a much greater capability.

If however a 'real' fighter was a must then a country in New Zealands position could do no better than the small cheap and very capable Saab Gripen.


[edit on 25-10-2004 by waynos]

Lol i always had a amazing idea for countries like NZ in its postition. lack of cash+many needs.

DRUM ROLE PLEASE all welcome the F/A/S-3K SUPER VIKING. sounds stupid dont it... well stop the think for a moment.

NZ is isolated from many other land masses( so no silly mach 2 fighter needed ,you could see you enemy coming from 1000mls away at a nice mach.8 cruise)
US NAVY is mothballing the fleet of s-3. (that means there cheap)

upgrade the the software in the radar(same as whats already been done in reguards to A/G role)

In theory you could end up with a S-3 capable of carrying amraams/torpedos/depth charges/emergency SAR equipment in its internal bays.
On the wings you add more amraams to its already long list of harpoon/slam-er/bombs/cbu/refueling pods.. etc

Lock could even do a fuse stretch and add some more fuel or bigger internal bay.

all in all. the F/A/S-3 would be capable of keeping a nice 1500mls radius of ocean without refueling under its umbrella of weapons, and capable of killing anything from a sub to a fast jet(which would never happen,lol)

I think the JAS 39 Gripen would be a good choice. It's advanced and it's not too expensive.

If I were a NZ'er I'd be looking very very hard at the bunch of recently refurbished and majorly upgraded Tornado fighters about to become available 2nd hand from the RAF.

Given NZ's geography and geographical position I'd suggest these would meet your requirements much more closely than anything else anywhere near the likely price.

Ultra long range with long loiter capability (plus air to air refueling) and an ultra long range multiple track whilst scan radar system just about as up to date as anything out there. Fill 'em up and they're up there for hours with some very sharp teeth.

Frankly I think the RAF should be keeping them for the UK..... but politics and economics and all that y'know.



[edit on 25-10-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

If you look at what equipment NZ has now would be a perfect time for it too re-invent itself

and handfull selection of P-3,C-130 and a few seasprites and hueys and even some old mash bell choppers,

The P-3 could be sold to australia or india

The C-130 could be modified like some others into a part time SAR/REFUELING/MARITIME PATROL aircraft rather cheaply

My idea for a modified S-3 VIKING would reduce the NZ to 1 operation jet. with some software mods. would give them a aircraft capable of interception/percision strike(its already jdam/slam-er capable)general bombing(s-3 was used for that in GW1)Air refueling, Anti sub/ship and SAR

FUEL and MAINTANCE COST WOULD BE REDUCE AS ITS NON AFTER BURNING,AND A MODIFIED CIVILIAN ENGINE.

NZ COULD ALSO STEP IN A BUY SOME OF THE BRIT ARMY LYNXS THAT WILL BE UP FOR SALE SOON. THEY COULD EVEN SELL THERE SEA SPRITES TO AUSTRALIA AND BUY ROYAL NAVY LYNXS ASWELL. THEREBY REDUCING ARMY AND NAVY AND AIRFORCE TO 1 MAKE OF CHOPPER.

NZ COULD ALSO INCREASE ITS SPF TROOPS AND HAVE ITS ARMY AS A VERY SMALL RAPID REACTION FORCE BACKED BY A BIGGER FORCE, IE LIKE A KIND OFF SPECIAL FORCES/RANGER OR SAS/PARAS GROUP

GIVEN THE LOCATION OF NZ ITS ONLY REAL ENEMY WOULD BE THAT DAM NAZI UFO BASE ON ANTRATICA LOL. NEAREST LAND MASS IS AUSTRALIA, NEXT IS ANTRACTICA SO YOU CAN ALL SEE A MACH 2 INTERCEPTOR IS POINTLESS FOR STARTERS, MULTI ROLE-LONG RANGE-CHEAP IS WHATS NEEDED.

A MACH 2 INTERCEPTOR IS POINTLESS FOR STARTERS, MULTI ROLE-LONG RANGE-CHEAP IS WHATS NEEDED.

Yay! A market for a modernised turbofan powered Gloster Javelin!




[edit on 25-10-2004 by waynos]

Originally posted by yeehaa
YOU CAN ALL SEE A MACH 2 INTERCEPTOR IS POINTLESS FOR STARTERS, MULTI ROLE-LONG RANGE-CHEAP IS WHATS NEEDED.

- Nonsense. You just don't light up the 'burners!......and the Tornado's vast range becomes even greater.



- and given the commonality between ADV and IDS varients I would not be at all surprised if the F3 couldn't (very easily) do an impressive multi-role job with just a few soft-ware tweaks.

[edit on 25-10-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

recently met a kiwi pilot now flying for RAF. he seemed pretty down about the state of the airforce there. he decided that since the best he was (at that time) going to get was a seat in a skyhawk, he would rather come to uk. he,s been flyin jaguars but since they are gettin the boot he's hoping to get a seat in a typhoon. which is a hell of alot better than he could have got back home. anyway who wants to attack the kiwi's? they're to nice to every one, could easily see old osama gettin a a wee sheep ranch on the south island, with the neighbours poppin round for beers on a friday night offcourse.

Are you serious about the Tornado????..........What time frame do the RAF have for selling these babies off??

I suppose that we have been 'forced' to go for the bloody Euro Fighter???

i would expect not for along time, if atall. the f3 is gettin the boot for the eurofighter but the GR4 is remaining in service for the forseeable future. most of the parts of the F3 are common to the GR4 so i could see alot of them gettin used as donors to keep the GR4 fleet in the air.

The uncle used to 'appraise' possible RNZAF planes for purchase before his early retirement...not so strangely he retired soon after hearing news of the impending disbanding. Nice one Helen Clarke

But thats okay...we are not unprotected. At last count we had 3 workable ships, a few slightly rusty rowboats, 2 kites with ANGRY faces painted on them that we can hoist up to scare people, 7 sharpened sticks, a pile of rocks...and some crazy Maori guy with a broken beer bottle.

...my money would be on the Maori guy every time...

just give em a dose of the drunken haka and send em packin ay? sounds like a tactic to me