Dunblane School Massacre....ended handgun rights in UK

reply to post by KingIcarus


Well we already have laws that restirct certain from owning fire arms. And it has been shown that the shootings of late and most of the better known mass killings were undertaken by the know mentally ill.

There are millions of gun owners in this country that own same without being a danger and yet these are the guns the the laws and their pros seek to censure.

Originally posted by skitzspiricy

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by SpearMint

 

Yes. The laws will stop nothing.

If americans passed such laws in the wake of events, one would still see killings 50 years after the fact.

Yes the Dunblane incident did end handgun rights in the UK. But the difference between the UK and the US is that we have never had a big gun culture and a right to bear arms in the way that the US does, so it didn't really matter a great deal to the majority of the UK population when handgun rights got stripped away.

All true....just pointing out that the laws passed in UK have been demonstrated to stop nothing. Anyone over there could get aholds of one and go on a tare.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by skitzspiricy

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by SpearMint

 

Yes. The laws will stop nothing.

If americans passed such laws in the wake of events, one would still see killings 50 years after the fact.

Yes the Dunblane incident did end handgun rights in the UK. But the difference between the UK and the US is that we have never had a big gun culture and a right to bear arms in the way that the US does, so it didn't really matter a great deal to the majority of the UK population when handgun rights got stripped away.

All true....just pointing out that the laws passed in UK have been demonstrated to stop nothing. Anyone over there could get ahols of one and go on a tare.

If they really wanted to, but that's not what happens. These things aren't usually planned, they're done with an already owned legal gun. If you don't have a gun you can't go on an impulse massacre. I don't think the vast majority of people would actually know where to get a gun illegally if they wanted to. If everyone has a gun, things like this increase.

Of course, there's also the theory the Dunblane shooting was a staged event, given the signatory of the shooters shotgun license. And how he'd been turned for one down before Lord Robertson intervened and signed it personally.

Originally posted by khimbar
Of course, there's also the theory the Dunblane shooting was a staged event, given the signatory of the shooters shotgun license. And how he'd been turned for one down before Lord Robertson intervened and signed it personally.

Yeah but isn't there a conspiracy theory related to every mass shooting? There wasn't a gun problem in the UK, it wouldn't have been staged.

Originally posted by SpearMint
And it hasn't happened since.

nope, not in a whole 2 yrs

2010 Cumbria shootings

Since drunk driving
kills more people
in the USA than GUN's

I think that maybe
we should make stricter
Alcohol laws, and perhaps
ban the automobile while
were at it.


P.S. a crazy is going to do crazy
no mater what controls you put
in place.

Oh & the UK not such a great model
hoodlums running around
stabbing people with screwdrivers
and slashing people with box cutters.

yeah lets give up our human right to protect ourselves
so we can all be happy victims subject to whatever comes our way

Originally posted by Honor93

Originally posted by SpearMint
And it hasn't happened since.

nope, not in a whole 2 yrs

2010 Cumbria shootings

I was talking about school shootings, and don't forget that 14 years before 2010.

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by KingIcarus

 

Well we already have laws that restirct certain from owning fire arms. And it has been shown that the shootings of late and most of the better known mass killings were undertaken by the know mentally ill.

There are millions of gun owners in this country that own same without being a danger and yet these are the guns the the laws and their pros seek to censure.

I don't disagree with any of that - I think it's very clear that the link between mental illness (and poverty) and gun violence is very strong indeed. Undeniable, in fact. I also think it's correct to say that the very, very vast majority of American gun owners treat their weapons with respect and responsibility.

However, the violence is a problem for American society (and every other society, including Britain) so it's entirely correct to look at society and see how it can be 'adjusted' to improve matters. Taking this discussion in super simplistic terms we've identified a link between gun violence, mental health and poverty.

Improving poverty would reduce gun crime out of desperation, improving mental health would reduce gun crime by helping people resolve their own conflict, gun control would reduce gun crime by making guns harder to get. Remember, this is a simplistic view.

For me - and this won't be popular on here - socialised healthcare is the best way to make America safer, but keep the guns. Crazy people would be better cared for, poor people would worry less about their health needs and expenses and commit less violent gun crime. I suspect poverty is a big trigger in mental illness too, actually, but I couldn't back that up.

Of course, this wouldn't solve things entirely, but I do think it'd improve matters.

*opens can of worms*

Originally posted by spoonbender
Since drunk driving
kills more people
in the USA than GUN's

I think that maybe
we should make stricter
Alcohol laws, and perhaps
ban the automobile while
were at it.

P.S. a crazy is going to do crazy
no mater what controls you put
in place.

Oh & the UK not such a great model
hoodlums running around
stabbing people with screwdrivers
and slashing people with box cutters.

yeah lets give up our human right to protect ourselves
so we can all be happy victims subject to whatever comes our way

Are cars and alcohol made specifically to kill people?

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by khimbar
Of course, there's also the theory the Dunblane shooting was a staged event, given the signatory of the shooters shotgun license. And how he'd been turned for one down before Lord Robertson intervened and signed it personally.

Yeah but isn't there a conspiracy theory related to every mass shooting? There wasn't a gun problem in the UK, it wouldn't have been staged.

Of course, it's always 'them'.

I'm not sure I understand 'There wasn't a gun problem in the UK, it wouldn't have been staged' though?

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

Originally posted by Logarock


A media driven debate.

Well, it's not a Logarock-driven debate. You only added 4 words to the quotes.

I can't see the point in North Americans trying to make comparisons with British gun laws. We don't have a comparable gun society and never have done, gun restrictions or not.

We dont need to talk about the societies here although that is something one could look into. Just showing that here or there laws never stop the madman.

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by SpearMint

 

Yes. The laws will stop nothing.

If americans passed such laws in the wake of events, one would still see killings 50 years after the fact.

totally agree.
the Brady bill really helped to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, didn't it ??

Originally posted by khimbar

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by khimbar
Of course, there's also the theory the Dunblane shooting was a staged event, given the signatory of the shooters shotgun license. And how he'd been turned for one down before Lord Robertson intervened and signed it personally.

Yeah but isn't there a conspiracy theory related to every mass shooting? There wasn't a gun problem in the UK, it wouldn't have been staged.

Of course, it's always 'them'.

I'm not sure I understand 'There wasn't a gun problem in the UK, it wouldn't have been staged' though?

I mean what reason would they have to stage it?

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by spoonbender
Since drunk driving
kills more people
in the USA than GUN's

I think that maybe
we should make stricter
Alcohol laws, and perhaps
ban the automobile while
were at it.

P.S. a crazy is going to do crazy
no mater what controls you put
in place.

Oh & the UK not such a great model
hoodlums running around
stabbing people with screwdrivers
and slashing people with box cutters.

yeah lets give up our human right to protect ourselves
so we can all be happy victims subject to whatever comes our way

Are cars and alcohol made specifically to kill people?

Thats a good question simply because it addresses the point that....they do kill people.....many more than guns and many more victims. But we take that as a cost of haveing drink and transportation.

reply to post by spoonbender


The UK model will - imo - remain a good one for however long it lasts that I am less likely to die as a result of an average violent encounter than I would be in America.

Just as an aside re: knives. Knife crime is a serious issue in the UK, but like guns the stats are skewed by criminal disputes. With the exception of very, very bad areas, your average Brit stands a phenomenally slim chance of being stabbed, and an even slimmer on of being killed.

Amongst 'hoodlums', the trend of knife crime is to humilate - hence slashing of buttocks etc rather than attempts to kill. That's something inspired by European football violence as I understand it, pathethic as it is.

I think people really need to stop comparing the UK and the US when it comes to guns.

It's like comparing Apple to Oranges, it really is a senseless argument.

The UK and US have both completely different cultures when it comes to gun laws and always likely will. Not to mention a considerable population difference, differing crime rates and how crime is dealt with etc etc.

It gets really boring after a while.

Yes both sides are always going to have differing opinions, but they are just simply opinions based on what we are used to.

reply to post by SpearMint


Sorry, I understand now.

No there wasn't a gun 'problem' in the same context America has one, but there were a lot of legally held weapons. And after the Dunblane massacre, and convenient petition, they were taken away.

Not a response to a gun problem, just a quick and easy way to take them away. Pre-emptive I suppose.

reply to post by SpearMint

If everyone has a gun, things like this increase

and i believe the residents of Kennesaw GA (USA) and the Swiss would disagree, like me.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by spoonbender
Since drunk driving
kills more people
in the USA than GUN's

I think that maybe
we should make stricter
Alcohol laws, and perhaps
ban the automobile while
were at it.

P.S. a crazy is going to do crazy
no mater what controls you put
in place.

Oh & the UK not such a great model
hoodlums running around
stabbing people with screwdrivers
and slashing people with box cutters.

yeah lets give up our human right to protect ourselves
so we can all be happy victims subject to whatever comes our way

Are cars and alcohol made specifically to kill people?

Thats a good question simply because it addresses the point that....they do kill people.....many more than guns and many more victims. But we take that as a cost of haveing drink and transportation.

No you missed the point. Cars and alcohol (although less so with alcohol) serve a purpose other than to kill people, guns don't. They are made to kill people, that's their sole purpose. Car crashes are obviously going to kill more people because there's hundreds of thousands if not millions of them on the road at any time, and in a bad crash more than one person is bound to get killed. It isn't a fair comparison, but it's brought up time and time again by people that are pro-guns, along with the stupid "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument. Those people that were responsible for killing people in car crashes didn't go out with the intention to do so (except maybe for some rare cases), they are accidents, murders are not.