R.I.P Britannia, page 3
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reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 07:26 AM by sminkeypinkey
Originally posted by Galvatron
Great Britain will never fall so long as the crows are still at the Tower of London!!!!


- Wow, easy there matey! Who said anything about GB 'falling'?

I think it will be a little bit before GB thinks about seriously joining the EU.


- Er, we already are a full member of the EU and have been since it became the EU and before that we were full members of the EEC.....the UK has had full membership in Europe for 30+yrs.....and was attempting to gain membership for over 10yrs before we actually got in.

I don't know many english who consider themselves "european."


- Yes, well some people insist on their silly illusions.

Check the map. It doesn't matter what some people might say the fact remains that the vast bulk of the people of the UK are Europeans that have come directly from continental Europeans.

Relations between UK and US are much stronger than between EU and US.


- I'd say this is a cosy illusion that has been fostered since the mid 1980's based upon a half-truth.
The fact is relations between both are strong and evident.

Much of UK culture is from continental Europe....and links and relationships are quite evident particularly in the S & SE of England.....and our appetite for travel and holidays in Europe (not to forget the channel tunnel) is drawing us closer and closer every passing year.

Whereas Europe might have seemed quite foreign to the 'average UK subject' 20yrs ago now it is quite ordinary and completely recognisable for many (most?).

The UK is the bridge, so to speak, between the two. It has an incredibly powerful possition in that role.


- Yeah I'd agree with that.

The problem is when the USA attempts to play the UK off against the EU.

It's a problem and an annoyance but fundamentally our interests lie with Europe as we are right now actually members of the EU and not the USA....as well the USA (government at least) knows. (come on man, even Bush knows this stuff.....or has advisors to tell him! :lol

Unfortunately it's leaders dont seem to realize its true potential. If the countries were personified, I, as the UK, would play some power politics with my "gate keeper" position and see how far it takes me.


- Well I'd suggest that you are out of touch with UK politics. The whole intent and approach of the current government is exactly as you have described....and several previous governments were regularly talking about this bridge stuff too.

The problem as I said is that this has been known to turn into the USA trying to get the UK to further US interests and not Europe's. To hell with that.

Could lead to reform and the better development of the UK to be quite powerful. But if it doesnt work, I would join the EU.


- Er, we already are in the EU.

So I think the UK has a couple different directions it could go before joining the EU and suspect that it will try to explore as many as it realizes before considering.


- Hello! Hello! We in the UK already are full members of the EU! What are you talking about?!



Originally posted by bigdanprice
Yeah I appreciate that but its the next logical step. We are intergrating more and more of political, judicial and financial institutions.

I am floating this as part of the debate on the European union, I think debating its future is a legitamte part of this.


- Absolutely dan.

What I meant before was not that we shouldn't discuss these things....of course I think we should - in fact I'd say it's a pity the EU and Europe generally are so far down or even off of the 'radar' as far as most Brits (according to most polls) seem concerned......I was meaning that we should cut out the pointless heated rows between those that aren't really debating the issue anyway.

Some people will never move from their 'it's Germany trying to take over again' or 'they're all just out to 'get' us' position.

Rather than waste everybodies' time with that as if it were the only thing to be debating we should accept those people are probably never going to be convinced and move on to discuss the other matters more open minded people want to explore.

For instance....given that most of continenal western Europe is reputed to have a superior education system and the UK is currently examining it's own system with a view to modernising it......how come almost no-one knows a thing about this reputedly better system right next door?

Surely we, and the national debate in general, should have been informed by our media outlets about how they manage a better outcome so that we might make an informed choice over what is possible and to come here?

or..... seeing as most of western continental Europe has a much lower crime rate (which means a much safer, cheaper, faster and generally more managable justice system) how come the UK always looks to the USA for inspiration in this area where they have a comparatively appalling crime problem (and very expensive 'justice' system)....and again we, in general, know so little about how 'Europe' does it?

Most of us aren't even aware of the comparison and yet we have been in this club for over 30yrs.

Thanks UK tory's and your foreign mates owning (most of) the UK press.




reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 08:29 AM by dh
While I have little sympathy for UKIP which comes across as little more than a British National Party for the aspiring classes, I do agree with its analysis of the European Parliament as little more than a rubber-stamping facility for the directives issued by the Commissioners.
Perhaps the usefulness of this organisation is best exemplified by the directives coming into force regarding vitamin and mineral accessability and dosage, and the application of drug standard testing to herbal and flower essence remedies
www.alliance-natural-health.org...
thereby seeking to take the possibilities of self treatment and personal resposibility for health away from the individual and to entrench treatments securely in the hands of the multnational drug cartels
A small example perhaps, but one that exemplifies the trend of the EU towards becoming a corporate led superstate, which will require the citizens of its member states to become uniform drones

The same trend will occur with the (US) dollarisation of the Americas
www.peacenowar.net... 31 02.htm and APEC will eventually incorporate China to become the third corporate bloc pushing the globalisation agenda
As has been stated by previous contributors, the EU is all about centralisation and de-diversifying and is a prime organisational thrust towards global government, which will more nearly reflect the Bush style of governance, rather than any friendly global village type of affair

It's quite possible to thoroughly anti-EU without possessing the slightest hint of xenophobia or nationalism

[edit on 26-10-2004 by dh]

[edit on 26-10-2004 by dh]

[edit on 26-10-2004 by dh]



reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 09:24 AM by sminkeypinkey
Originally posted by dh
While I have little sympathy for UKIP which comes across as little more than a British National Party for the aspiring classes, I do agree with its analysis of the European Parliament as little more than a rubber-stamping facility for the directives issued by the Commissioners.


- This is simply not true. The Parliament has powers to reject Commissioners directives (true it is a long and drawn out process but it exists nevertheless). The last example (that I can think of) of it being used was to stop the commission's attempt to limit motorcycles to no more than 100bhp. After a continent-wide campaign it was stopped in the Euro parliament.

Just because it rarely happens doesn't mean the powers are not there.

(and what about if the Parliament reject the new Commission? Is that being a rubber stamp and completely 'toothless'?)

....and let's be clear, the national governments don't want a powerful Euro parliament and the Commission is comprised of the nominees from the national governments.

Hardly detached and dictating to the national govenments.

Perhaps the usefulness of this organisation is best exemplified by the directives coming into force regarding vitamin and mineral accessability and dosage, and the application of drug standard testing to herbal and flower essence remedies
www.alliance-natural-health.org...
thereby seeking to take the possibilities of self treatment and personal resposibility for health away from the individual and to entrench treatments securely in the hands of the multnational drug cartels


- Hmm, that is of course an interesting way to look at this.

An alternate might be to understand the issue of self-harm by uninformed people over-dosing themselves on vitamins and various supplements.

They were completely unaware that anyone could actually do this to themselves this way.

Rather than handing 'powers' to 'the multinational drug companies' the new legislation forces them to thoroughly test, label and size the products in such a way as to at least attempt to protect the consumer from unwitting harm.

I cannot see how helping reduce an obvious and existant level of harm (a harm arising from a poorly informed public's perception the multinational drug companies have done nothing to correct) can be construed as giving corporate power a boost or heralding the arrival of the superstate.

Sorry but that is just ludicrous in my view.

A small example perhaps, but one that exemplifies the trend of the EU towards becoming a corporate led superstate, which will require the citizens of its member states to become uniform drones


- Sorry; I see this as a very poor 'example' taking a view completely at odds with what is actually happening in society and with what these small changes actually mean.

It is about protecting people from their manifest ignorance on the subject and has absolutely nothing to do with this imagined scary superstate that some think just around the corner and out to 'get' them.

By that reckoning any regulation is sinister (which is exactly how the 'right' seem to see it)

The same trend will occur with the (US) dollarisation of the Americas
www.peacenowar.net... 31 02.htm and APEC will eventually incorporate China to become the third corporate bloc pushing the globalisation agenda


- I have no doubt that the trend is to move toward 'blocs' with common standards and regulations across each one. So what? This makes economic sense and will ease the move toward global standards we might all one day enjoy.

I see no reason why this should equate to the dreary grey totalitarianism that is usually implied becase of this potential.

Why should it have to be of itself a bad and scary thing when it happens in many many years (probably many decades) time?

As has been stated by previous contributors, the EU is all about centralisation and de-diversifying and is a prime organisational thrust towards global government, which will more nearly reflect the Bush style of governance, rather than any friendly global village type of affair


- ....and yet for all this kind of talk one sees a situation where countries are desparate to join the EU. Those countries within the EU only act in within a system democratic agreement.....as they have for decades.

....and as far as the vast majority of individuals are concerned living standards are better and personal rights and freedoms are far greater and better than ever before under the old competitive nation states.

If the drift is towards such a move to centralised power how come the EU is such a free system?

It's quite possible to thoroughly anti-EU without possessing the slightest hint of xenophobia or nationalism


- I don't doubt that at all; although it has to be said that genuine examples are, sadly, very thin on the ground in the UK.













[edit on 27-10-2004 by sminkeypinkey]


reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 10:14 AM by UK Wizard
also found a web site that goes into detail about the lies that the EU pumps out

members.tripod.com...


Every school and learning establishment in the EU has masses of glossy,very expensively produced EU literature thrown at them to use in school projects and research.


In my school, i've seen a couple of glossy posters with a map of europe on and a big eu flag, talking about unity and unitedness
It's pretty low targeting school children with propaganda

[edit on 26-10-2004 by UK Wizard]


reply posted on 26-10-2004 @ 11:56 AM by sminkeypinkey
Originally posted by UK Wizard
@ sminkeypinkey, (sorry if it wasn't you who made the statement)

you say if we withdraw from the EU, we would lose 3million UK jobs?


- Well you're right it's not my claim but I have seen that one often made.

I simply want to know why?,
people say the jobs are directly linked to us being in the EU, but they never explain how or why?


- I think it's got a lot to do with cost sharing and the ease and cost of market access.

There are many areas - especially the ultra high tech fields - which medium and small sized countries like the UK simply cannot afford to do alone anymore. By sharing costs between several small and medium sized countries we can. This allows us, and the others, to protect and develop the national skills base in an manner we could never otherwise have done.

Airbus, CERN and ESA are excellent examples of this beneficial mutual cooperation at work.

Even the USA is doing this with some countries. It's simply a reality of how some things have to be done now.

Also -

People/countires wishing to trade with the EU from outside of the EU have to pay tarriffs. Basically the price of goods and services coming from outside of the EU attract additional costs in the form of tarriff ranging from 0% (on some - few - items) all the way up to (if I remember correctly) to 10% being levied on a few major items.

All countries/trading groups do this. Whilst organisations like the WTO etc attempt to reduce these barriers to completely free trade the fact remains that (for now) they exist.

(also it is worth bearing in mind that whilst there may be 'free-er markets' there probably never has been nor never will be a truely 'free market' anywhere)

I do not think you'd find a provider of goods or services in the UK who would dismiss the idea of suddenly loading their products with additional costs as being a good idea and one that would not have an impact on their operations and jobs.

Foreign investors outside of the EU want ease of access to the EU. If that is your objective and the UK leaves where is the incentive to invest in the UK.....or remain in the UK?

The idea that the UK should compete on the basis of labour costs alone (basically the sum total of what the social chapter rejecting tories and ukip mob have to say) is a manipulative joke - particularly when we are now in a situation of competing with the new 10 countries whos' labour costs are far below UK's labour costs, social chapter or no.

Those that say withdrawal will bring no extra costs are simply relying on their own fantasy that the UK could somehow (not that they explain how this is meant to work) retain all the benefits of membership without actually being members .....which means to the cost of the EU members. One cannot cite other countries as a possible example as no-one else has ever fully joined and then left. In any case, why should they go along with this?


also found a web site that goes into detail about the lies that the EU pumps out

members.tripod.com...


- Bloody hell Wizard.

You really want to be more choosy about where you get your information from.

Talk about heavy spin and one sided comment......there's your blatent propaganda.


Every school and learning establishment in the EU has masses of glossy,very expensively produced EU literature thrown at them to use in school projects and research.


- So when something is funded or initiated by the EU is the EU not entitled to inform the people how things came about?

When NASA sent kids across the USA packs of info about how their space missions were acomplished by them is that propaganda?

In my school, i've seen a couple of glossy posters with a map of europe on and a big eu flag, talking about unity and unitedness
It's pretty low targeting school children with propaganda


- or alternatively it could just be illustrating the countries that constitute the EU. Which is a reality one might imagine school kids need educating about. That is not propaganda.

[edit on 26-10-2004 by sminkeypinkey]


reply posted on 27-10-2004 @ 09:16 AM by UK Wizard
You have a answer to everthing

I don't see anything wrong with the source I used, yes it's heavily anti-EU but it backs itself up with facts and figures


When NASA sent kids across the USA packs of info about how their space missions were acomplished by them is that propaganda?


Completely different situation, thats education, this is propaganda

There are many areas - especially the ultra high tech fields - which medium and small sized countries like the UK simply cannot afford to do alone anymore. By sharing costs between several small and medium sized countries we can. This allows us, and the others, to protect and develop the national skills base in an manner we could never otherwise have done.


European countries can share costs and technical help without the EU being there. If the UK was outside the EU and Germany wasn't, that wouldn't stop us developing say a new battle tank together.

People/countires wishing to trade with the EU from outside of the EU have to pay tarriffs. Basically the price of goods and services coming from outside of the EU attract additional costs in the form of tarriff ranging from 0% (on some - few - items) all the way up to (if I remember correctly) to 10% being levied on a few major items.


I'm a supporter of free trade, I'm betting a reason the EU has tarriffs on non-EU countries is because EU member won't be able to afford leaving the EU.


According to the Source Britain has lost financially from being in the EU



IN TOTAL - Counting all income from EU countries since 1973, and taking away all we paid in imports, net fees to Brussels, etc. the actual loss by 1996 was £160,000,000,000





[edit on 27-10-2004 by UK Wizard]



reply posted on 27-10-2004 @ 11:14 AM by sminkeypinkey
Originally posted by UK Wizard
You have a answer to everthing


- Well hopefully it's because I am reasonably informed about such matters.

......you're not suggest ignorance is better are you? Or would a conversation where folks just agreed with the one point of view, no matter what, suit you better?

I don't see anything wrong with the source I used, yes it's heavily anti-EU but it backs itself up with facts and figures


- Oh come on Wizard.

The concept of selectivity, distortion and heavily loaded information being used to suit an agenda can't possibly be new to you.

The anti-EU crowd are famed for it......for instance where within that site is there the slightest recognition that the EU has ever done anything good or worthwhile ever?

Most pro-EU people can at least recognise it's flaws (it would be absurd to expect perfection in any human construct) but how come the anti-EU crowd can never bring themselves to acknowledge the good it has done?

I suggest you give that some thought.

It's a pretty good indicator of when something is being driven by a blinkered ideology rather than the actual facts of the matter.

Completely different situation, thats education, this is propaganda


- I completely disagree.

The EU is the single biggest most wealthy political and trading block in the world. Even if we were not members of it I would suggest that maps showing it's existance and which countries are members of it would be shown in schools in the UK as we would be right next door to it.

Presenting the bare facts of the matter is not propaganda.

European countries can share costs and technical help without the EU being there.


- Well that's true. But nevertheless the EU is there and we are not coming at this from anything other than our current situation as fully signed up members.....and such cross continental co-operation is a hell of a lot easier as we operate to long established common standards and practises; this is something that does not 'just' happen outside of such 'unions'.

If the UK was outside the EU and Germany wasn't, that wouldn't stop us developing say a new battle tank together.


- Yet the fact is undeniable that co-operative ventures have grown markedly under the EU rather than before it or outside it.

Again that's an interesting theory but the reality of our actual situation cannot just be imagined or wished away.

I'm a supporter of free trade


- Well that's fine, but I'd say we should just remember that there is not, never has been and never will be a completely 'free' market. The basic constraints of being human on the planet we live on see to that on a very fundamental level.

I'm betting a reason the EU has tarriffs on non-EU countries is because EU member won't be able to afford leaving the EU.


- No.

You must have missed the point that trade tarriffs are quite normal all over the world in international trade.

Everyone does it because just about everyone who has ever traded internationally has done it in the past; for centuries in many cases.

The world has, actually, been moving to a situation here we have gotten better about such things and tarriffs have been reduced and in cases removed but they are here to stay in one form or another. It's the nature of our economy to at least minimally protect itself and its own.

According to the Source Britain has lost financially from being in the EU


- Yeah well as I said I wouldn't give those guys the slightest credibility. If you want an anti-EU site there are better and much more reliable ones that the usually ideologically driven wild-eyed neo-nationalist type loons that populate that end of the political spectrum.

No doubt some of them believe the EU to want to eat our first-born too.....the idea that UK governments, almost all political parties and the great bulk of the UK business community (of all 'colours') have just not noticed that the EU wasn't a good deal for the UK and actually 'costs' us all so much over the years is, frankly, laughable in the extreme.

What are they saying? Only they can see it? (actually, yes, make that rhetorical; that is exactly the kind of message these types attempt to propagate...sacred holders of the lone secret truth with the entire world against them in a vast conspiracy, Jayzuss they're soooooooo predictible)

That type want believers. Big difference.

The anti lot are very vocal and quite good at getting their version across (mind you it helps when you have the national press foreign owned and those owners utterly hostile to the EU to a man......because the EU is seen to be potentially hostile or actually hostile to US business/political interests etc etc).

Tell me, rather than just accept every and anything these types have to say to you (with their heavy block capitals about 'the truth!' ) have you tried to broaden your EU source material?

Have you tried visiting sites with a more balanced message......you know, one that can honestly mention at least some of the good it has (ever) done?

Until you do I'd suggest you are supping up someone's politics and not necessarily 'the truth!' at all.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and then right on cue here comes our very own Alf Garnet cross-bred with Jimmy from 'The fall and Rise of Reggie Perrin'.

posted by Rustiswordz

i want turkey to join the EU.

The burden of this economically and morally backward country will be the EU's death knell.


- Carry on dreaming the dream old son.

Rust do you really think Turkey would be allowed to join if it meant what you imagine it to mean?

Do you think you (and no doubt to your seething little proto-resistance group) are the only one(s) to have ever considered this?

Do you have greater expertise than the expertise being applied to this question by the 25 states that now comprise the EU currently?

Wake up man.

Be patient everyone, the EU cannot hold, lets just bide our time, all the components for the EU's collapse is already in place. Just be patient, time will do the rest.


- Maybe that's so, eventually.

There's not one 'system' that has survived intact for that long in all of recorded human history.....

....but, chin up matey, I'll bet the house you'll be long dead by the time that comes to pass.

Failing that then armed resistance is always an option and that is closer than people realise too...


- Back to your illegal fantasy 'actions' are we?

The EU doesn't scare or threaten me but this type of tosh worries me (but just a little) because there probably really are a handfull out there that think this crap.......and I mean handful. Silly impotent noise and rubbish.

Jayzuss this gets too ludicrous to even bother responding to really. This really is pure silly pathetic nonsense.

Tune in and try and relax a tad, huh?







[edit on 27-10-2004 by sminkeypinkey]


reply posted on 27-10-2004 @ 02:03 PM by sminkeypinkey
Originally posted by UK Wizard
No way, I'll admit when i'm wrong.... i need more convincing on the EU though


- Fair enough, but you do realise it is the type of thing that you - or anyone with 'a life' - is ever going to feel 'great' about, eh?

It's not really that kind of thing.

All the anti-EU sources i've read are completely against the EU


- That should be a warning to you.

That's one of the reasons why it's so easy for them, nice neat clear-cut yeah or nay and no shades of grey or awkward reality intruding.

I really don't mean to patronise you Wizard but people who permanently talk in such absolutes are usually worth taking with several shovels full of salt.

All the pro-EU sources i've read never talk about the bad things


- Hmmm, I doubt the pro sources are quite so black and white.

got any neutral sources you know about????


- You could start with this one. www.euobserver.com

They're pretty fair, but there are others out there (do your own leg-work! my bet is you'll benefit from the stuff you discover yourself).

But let's be honest about this Wizard. The EU is not perfect, it's never going to be perfect and there are always going to be things to criticise it over (just like with any system of bureaucracy/administration).

Just because it has the inevirtable flaws and faults does not invalidate the entire operation nor rob it of it's value nor remove the good it has done and continues to do. The simple fact that it is a human enterprise ensures there will be mistakes made, errors happen and wastage will be a fact of life. Mind you the audits show that compared to the national governments EU fraud and wastage is pretty low.

We used to invade people who upset us in the past, we don't do that now, why do we need tarrifs...greed comes to mind


- No. Come on Wizard that is hardly relevant, trade tarriffs are not an EU invention.

It's nothing new, it pre-dates the EU by many many years and it's called protectionism.....and if your living depended upon it you might not find it so easy to criticise.

talking about propaganda



what a waste of money, i'm sure it could have been spent on something better than the EU congratulating themselves


- So if people are complaining that the EU does nothing or has never done anything for them is it so wrong that they label their projects to raise public awareness? Is that a waste of money? Should people not be aware of where the funding for various projects is coming from?

It used to be that the EU was down for 'never doing nothing for us' now the anti's complain that they are using propaganda if projects are labelled.

I'll agree it can be seen either way but my problem with the anti line is they want it only one way. Theirs.

No doubt some of them believe the EU to want to eat our first-born too.....


you sure?

- Yes I am.....with some that's putting it mildly!


reply posted on 28-10-2004 @ 08:21 AM by sminkeypinkey
Originally posted by UK Wizard
The education thing is great, anything that promotes learning is brilliant


- Hear hear!

but....regarding free work movement, logic dictates that those in poorer countries (eg Eastern Europe) would move westerly to get job in the richer countries (eg Britain, Germany, France etc)


- Logic smogic Wizard.

Myth reliant on people not really knowing any better, more like.

This is just so tired and false it's getting funny......just like the 10 000's (100 000 wasn't it?) that were supposed to 'invade' and 'swamp' the UK within seconds of the new 10 countries joining the EU last spring.

Why let the facts get in the way, huh?

The thing is though, that the 'pull' of Germany is far far greater for the eastern euro countires than that of the UK anyway for all sorts of long standing cultural and family tie reasons.

.....and even they now don't make it so easy to come in....that is for those who would be prepared to up-root and leave their families and everything they know for this legend of the so much better life.

I suggest a little investigation as to just how 'poor' Hungary or Poland etc actually are, rather than reputed to be (and take account of prices there and not just salaries).

They're nothing like Albania (and who in the UK press is reporting the many Kosovans/Albanians who have now gone home? ).

(.....and for those who think it all depends on 'the social'? Jeez, in the UK's case anyone who thinks our thread-bare and very hard to get 'benefits' are such a draw needs a swift reality check! Very low and hard to obtain last time I looked into them.)

I'm in favour of European cooporation but the way we are cuurently running Europe is all wrong....now if i was in charge...


- Would you be administering things as they actually are or just the mythical tabloid version?







[edit on 28-10-2004 by sminkeypinkey]


reply posted on 29-10-2004 @ 01:53 PM by UK Wizard
Originally posted by bigdanprice
@ukwizard
I noticed that you posted a picture about merseyside, thanking the EU. Well I come from near Liverpool and the help the EU has given, especially with the capital of culture thing is amazing. The city is regenerating. one that was left to rot during the thatcher years, There is an up beat mood there, things are happening, that would never hve happened under purely UK investment. There are things that need to be ironed out with the EU but if we are not there to influence it then we will be in serious trouble...


Sorry didn't mean to offend

i don't see why the money couldn't be spent by the British Governement, I personally think that local councils should have an increased budget to pay for renevation of a area. The national Government should deal with national issues and the local Governement should deal with local issues.

Would you be administering things as they actually are or just the mythical tabloid version?


I'd administer from facts...yes i listen to propaganda but i make up my own mind...I've politely listening to your views and accept that you have a very relevant point.


---------

Just a thought isn't the EU doomed to fail as it is confined to Europe, why not the GU (global union), that way countries who can contribute can join.(just a thought)

Also the EU is going to conflict (not start a conflict) with other countries who are outside of the EU due to competition, rivalry, super power status etc

[edit on 29-10-2004 by UK Wizard]


reply posted on 29-10-2004 @ 02:43 PM by sminkeypinkey
Originally posted by UK Wizard
i don't see why the money couldn't be spent by the British Governement,


- Maybe, but it wasn't and it wasn't ever going to be.

Particularly during all but the last few of the 18+ tory years when they scrapped all regional assistance for regeneration on the grounds of their ideology!

I personally think that local councils should have an increased budget to pay for renevation of a area. The national Government should deal with national issues and the local Governement should deal with local issues.


- Would you not agree that regional regeneration is a matter far beyond 'local government' and it's possible budget?

If so can you also see that there may also be clear cases where the national government (due to it's priorities and/or budgetary restrictions) might not be able to (or for the matter, in cases, willing) to reinvest in areas of major blight?

......in which case would a larger more strategic entity like the EU not be the obvious candidate to step in and fund major large-scale regeneration?

I'd administer from facts...yes i listen to propaganda but i make up my own mind...I've politely listening to your views and accept that you have a very relevant point.


- Why thanks Wizard; I was being bit flip there as you may have noticed . Sadly we are all subjected to so much propaganda, there's such a lot of it about.....that's why I think you have to go out of your way to find diverse sources to try and get a fuller picture of what's going on.


---------

Just a thought isn't the EU doomed to fail as it is confined to Europe,


- No I don't think so.

Europe is by any reasonable measure a success and in no way sliding toward 'failure'.....current unimpressive euro zone growth is neither the problem some imagine nor permanent.

As soon as Germany reaches equilibrium in it's reunification then I suspect that Europe will once again grow at trend rates.

In fact if you measure 'real' growth, that is growth minus inflation, euro growth is not quite the low rate it appears.

Similarly with euro unemployment. The typical ways it is calculated in much of Europe is very different to the UK. Simply being a part-time worker who would like a full-time job would (if registered) count as unemployed in Germany for instance.....imagine the impact a similar measure would have on UK unemployment figures!

why not the GU (global union), that way countries who can contribute can join.(just a thought)


- I imagine that the next century or two will see the move to three recognisable and distinct blocks (Euro zone, the Americas and the Pacific China/Japan region.....with the ME not quite a full block but kind of separate) and after that formal associations between the three and following that possibly some sort of global union.

But it's worth bearing in mind many markets are now completely international and 'global'.

Anyhoo, no need to rush these things!

Also the EU is going to conflict (not start a conflict) with other countries who are outside of the EU due to competition, rivalry, super power status etc


- Well if our simply being here in union is such a problem for some then maybe it will lead to friction. But tough. That's what the markets are all about. Either we compete for raw materials or we fight; personally I'm for the competition......and you have to remember that the EU zone is quite well resourced.

Europe does 80% of it's total trade internally. We are not actually exposed to the volitility of world markets in the same way as many now are.




reply posted on 30-10-2004 @ 08:12 AM by sminkeypinkey
Originally posted by UK Wizard
Nope, regionisation is just the carving up of England, I support the traditional county's


- Er, no Wizard.

Regional assistance is something the UK gov (of all colours - except for that extremely destructive Thatcherite period) has done since the end of WW2.

It has nothing to do with the EU or regional government, actually.

Devolving power down away from the centre (regional government) is a different matter entirely.....and how come you find central control so great when it applies to conditions within the national government/state (UK) but is so terrible when applied to the EU?

....and how can devolving power to those it actually affects be seen as 'centralising' or 'the EU taking over countries'? That's pretty contradictory IMO.

Maybe Europe is being too isolationist


- So what is it? Globalisation-ist or isolisation-ist? Are you trying to have this both ways now? ( - a typical anti-EU tactic - )

Tensions in Germany are increasing,


- I completely disagree with this comment. Tensions exist yes that is true but I do not believe for one moment that they are actually increasing at all.

east and west are like two different countries...it's going to take a very long time for the damage to be healed.


- I see no one denying that. In fact it is quite a good illustarator of just how this 'it's just Germany taking over' line is such utter crap. I mean, if they can't even easily absorb their own country back again.... .

----

The signing of the constitution anger's me, we should vote first then either not sign it or sign it depending on the vote result.


- That is not how these agreements work and it never has been - for good reason.

Governments negotiate agreements and sign up to them and then the people give their assent. How could it possibly work practically the other way?

Nothing would ever be finished, everything would become a never-ending process of individual nations attempting to squeeze out the last possible concession/benefit before signing.

Mind you pushing for circumstances that lead to the utter unworkability of the EU is exactly the agenda of some, let's face it, however superficially plausible this stuff sounds.

Also this contraversy surrounding Rocco Buttiglione is disgusting, yes he holds views that many people don't like but there are those who do share his views.


- The man is free to hold whatever views he likes. That is his right to free speech.

However those expressed views may have consequences.....and here they certainly do.

In this case they do as they are very likely to influence his conduct in the 'brief' he is proposed for and they are contrary to agreed EU principles.

You could not possibly permit just anyone to hold the Justice position and excuse their outrageous bigotry as 'personal opinions'.....even in the USA they hold long and extended hearings to determine whether candidates for certain positions have views contrary or prejudicial to existant law or policies.

This is IMO one of the things so sad about the so-called 'anti-PC' brigade. The one area of human affairs we can ensure none of us are treated in a prejudicial manner is in our official dealing with each other. We might not be able to do a lot about our (or anybodies') personal conduct and the private prejudices they hold but we can insist that none of us face sanctioned prejudice either from our political institutions or our commercial activity.

(I am not meaning yourself here Wizard, just general comment I've seen) I have been amazed at the number of people who - of course - claim not to support this man's views but think his 'treatment' (what threatment?!) 'unfair'.....whatever that's meant to mean.

The majority of the EU MEP's are being hypocritical by saying that this man can't be a Commission nominee because he is prejudce towards certain people, the EU is being prejudce to those who don't agree with homosexuality.

(i don't share Rocco Buttiglione's views)




- You think the EU being prejudiced "to those who don't agree with homosexuality."?

The EU is being prejudiced against those who insist on seeing prejudiced people in office?

That doesn't sound bad to me. Think about it.

If you (or a member of your family or circle of friends) were on the end of sweeping blind prejudice that took no account of you as an individual wouldn't you complain?

Would you not demand to know why people with such outrageous and unacceptable views were allowed to influence and exert their prejudices as if it were completely normal.....particularly if their views were well known beforehand?

Would you not see this as a regressive step utterly unacceptable in this day and age?

Sorry but that arguement attempting to turn things on their head does not work for me at all......you surprised me there Wizard, I thought you were above such obvious and very clear nonsense.....that would be a fine example of what I have mentioned before as part of the superficial and adolescent level of political arguement we are inflicted with in the UK. Bad one.)

Do you not know that since the end of WW2 (and long before the UK joined the EU) people that hold extreme political views and are members of extreme political parties have been sacked from the UK civil service, have been barred form the UK civil service and if discovered expressing those views publicly will be sacked from the civil service to this day?







[edit on 30-10-2004 by sminkeypinkey]
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