A logical problem witih "Hell"

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

Check your dictionary -- "allegory" doesn't mean fiction, it makes no judgement as to the accuracy of what is being discussed.

Russell's teapot again. I'm getting tired of playing this game with people who are incapable of simple logic.

What are you talking about? What logic have you imparted to this discussion -- all you've done is shown that you don't know what the words parable and allegory mean, and then gotten crabby when I point that out.

So you think that Jesus is stupid?

Are you dense? You have read my posts. You know my stance. Don't play stupid with me.

To be honest, I've seen so many off the wall claims by you, no, I have no idea what your "stance" on this issue is. But, here, let me lay out the case that we have before us:

1) OP claims hell can't exist
2) I cite scripture that has Jesus saying that it does exist, in the form Christians generally describe it as being

Now, either Akragon is wrong or Jesus is. Or you can say that the Bible is fictional, in which case they're both wrong (in your opinion) and you really have nothing to add to the discussion. Over to you.

reply to post by adjensen

What are you talking about? What logic have you imparted to this discussion -- all you've done is shown that you don't know what the words parable and allegory mean, and then gotten crabby when I point that out.

I don't know what the words allegory and parable mean? Here, let me show it to you in black and white so you no longer have any excuse to play stupid.

al·le·go·ry
/ˈaləˌgôrē/
Noun
A story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.

sto·ry
/ˈstôrē/
Noun
An account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment: "an adventure story".

See where it says 'imaginary'? Does allegory of the cave mean anything to you? I rest my case. Now go back to sticking your head in the sands of ignorance.

To be honest, I've seen so many off the wall claims by you, no, I have no idea what your "stance" on this issue is. But, here, let me lay out the case that we have before us:

The above is an off-the-wall claim? No, you just use your lack of awareness as an excuse to tell me I'm wrong. But I just showed you everything you needed to see to say, "Yeah, I know." Now it's your turn to continue denying me in the name of your precious fantasy.

I read a thread recently on the use of logic in ATS, and how it's falling to pieces because people prefer comfort over rational reasoning. I get it, if you were forced to face reality, you'd probably off yourself. But that is no excuse to spread ignorance on a website for rational discussion.

1) OP claims hell can't exist
2) I cite scripture that has Jesus saying that it does exist, in the form Christians generally describe it as being

Now, either Akragon is wrong or Jesus is. Or you can say that the Bible is fictional, in which case they're both wrong (in your opinion) and you really have nothing to add to the discussion. Over to you.

...oh...my....god. I can't take this. I seriously cannot.

"Think of how stupid the average human is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin

reply to post by AfterInfinity


There can be stories based on true events as well, see how it says "imaginary or real"? Stories aren't limited to fiction only like you seem to be implying. I don't mean any disrespect, just playing devil's advocate.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

What are you talking about? What logic have you imparted to this discussion -- all you've done is shown that you don't know what the words parable and allegory mean, and then gotten crabby when I point that out.

I don't know what the words allegory and parable mean? Here, let me show it to you in black and white so you no longer have any excuse to play stupid.

al·le·go·ry
/ˈaləˌgôrē/
Noun
A story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.

sto·ry
/ˈstôrē/
Noun
An account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment: "an adventure story".

See where it says 'imaginary'? Does allegory of the cave mean anything to you? I rest my case. Now go back to sticking your head in the sands of ignorance.

See where it says "or real"?

...oh...my....god. I can't take this. I seriously cannot.

Can't take what? Show me where I have ever said that the Bible was the infallible word of God.

You just don't like people pointing out your mistakes.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

There can be stories based on true events as well, see how it says "imaginary or real"? Stories aren't limited to fiction only like you seem to be implying. I don't mean any disrespect, just playing devil's advocate.

"can be" is a long way off from "actually is". Keep that in mind.

The people here are not interested in truth. That much is clear. I'm not sure what the point of discussing religion is on ATS.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Quick question- What makes you think that the passage concerning the rich man and Lazarus is a parable? If you could provide a reference supporting this claim, I would be interested to see it. I am of the understanding that Jesus did not "name names" when telling a parable. Would this mean that the passage concerning the other Lazarus in scripture was a parable as well?

reply to post by micmerci


I'm really not concerned with what is real in the Bible. In my mind, the Bible is irrelevant and unnecessary.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


But from reading the threads it seems you are basing at least part of your argument on the premise of the Lazarus story being a parable.

reply to post by micmerci


That's because it's called a parable.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


And that brings us to my original question: who said it is a parable?

reply to post by micmerci


The same guy who's taking it literally. Adjensen. And I'm showing that just because he chooses to view it literally, does not make it literal. The definitions I've posted make it clear that it could go either way. And since his beloved Jesus claims to speak in parables, rather than just saying, "Everything I say is the exact truth," I would guess that it's all a metaphor for something deeper.

But, you know, those sand people weren't the smartest you've ever met.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity


"can be" is a long way off from "actually is". Keep that in mind.

The people here are not interested in truth. That much is clear. I'm not sure what the point of discussing religion is on ATS.

I suppose that you dismiss out-of-hand anyone who says they have been a seeker of Truth, and then claims to have found it. I am such a person. What truth are you looking for?

Originally posted by ihavenoaccount
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Did you not know that God/Jesus DOES take you at your worst? He put His hand on me when I was a confident atheist. I'm a better person than I was as an atheist, and a lot of folks thought I was a nice person for an atheist. Do not be put off by Christians, they have their own path to follow, and you have yours.

Probably overreacting here, but I'm slightly miffed by this one. Sure, your life may have turned out for the better, but what on earth does "nice for an atheist" mean? I understand that you feel spiritually transformed, I used to think I felt the same a few years ago... but really? Your language seems to is imply that Christians are generally better people, not that the converse is true at all, but surely you can understand why people might be "put off" by you?

So you're miffed, cool, well people have reacted negatively to me my whole life. "Nice for an atheist" means just that - I rejected the idea of a supernatural God, but otherwise lived according to my strict Southern Baptist upbringing. One fellow I used to know called me "the sinless cynic." I did not mean to imply that Christians are better people, generally or otherwise. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but I believe coming to Christ is a good thing, all else being equal, which it never is. Remember that Jesus said He came not for the healthy, but for the sick. There is more to what we are discussing than outward appearances, or what the world values...

reply to post by AfterInfinity


For what it's worth, Jesus would usually preface a parable with "I tell you a parable". I also think it would be weird to preface all one's sayings with "I tell you the truth".

My only problem with your argument is that you are bringing in an atheist position to a theist debate. The OP obviously believes in something and bases his argument on his interpretation of scripture. Throwing in an unbelieving viewpoint creates a three way argument. If OP is basing on biblical references then shouldn't counter arguments come from the same perspective? I am not. Saying that your points are invalid just that they may be a whole different argument.

Adjensen was pointing out how often Jesus referred to hell in scripture. Which is a good counterpoint to the OP using the same source as the OP

reply to post by Lazarus Short

I suppose that you dismiss out-of-hand anyone who says they have been a seeker of Truth, and then claims to have found it. I am such a person. What truth are you looking for?

"There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading to the same place, so it doesn't matter which path you take. The only person wasting time is the one who runs around the mountain, telling everyone that his or her path is wrong." - Hindu proverb

“Say not, 'I have found the truth,' but rather, 'I have found a truth.' Say not, ' I have found the path of the soul.' Say rather, 'I have met the soul walking upon my path.' For the soul walks upon all paths. The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed. The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.” ― Kahlil Gibran

"Lord, help me to always seek the truth, but deliver me from those who have found it."

“The most important things are the hardest to say. They are the things you get ashamed of, because words diminish them -- words shrink things that seemed limitless when they were in your head to no more than living size when they're brought out. But it's more than that, isn't it? The most important things lie too close to wherever your secret heart is buried, like landmarks to a treasure your enemies would love to steal away. And you may make revelations that cost you dearly only to have people look at you in a funny way, not understanding what you've said at all, or why you thought it was so important that you almost cried while you were saying it. That's the worst, I think. When the secret stays locked within not for want of a tellar but for want of an understanding ear.”

I've always loved Stephen King for his honesty. He has all the cutting accuracy of Patrick Rothfuss, without the distracting poetry.

Anyway, I look for any truth I can find. What is there to live for, except to find truth? If you live to find lies, then it is time for you to leave this world, for you are surrounded by them.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


The same could be said for the opposite. Just because something "can be" false doesn't mean it is.

For the record, I agree with your stance more than I do adjensen's, I'm just trying to keep it fair.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

The same could be said for the opposite. Just because something "can be" false doesn't mean it is.

For the record, I agree with your stance more than I do adjensen's, I'm just trying to keep it fair.

If I had a logical basis for taking such a position, I would be agreeing with Adjensen. But as matter stand, there's a reason I'm ignoring what you just pointed out.

In fact, taking the two viewpoints and putting them smack together leaves all parties at an impasse, because I operate on reason and Adjensen operates on complete lack of reason. Logic only works on the willing.

reply to post by Akragon


By your way of thinking,

Heaven can't exist either,

This is the problem with deciding on your own what is Truth.

Your view of Truth is skewed because you deny THE Truth

reply to post by godlover25


Heaven and hell are both states of mind. Just like everything else.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I agree, but now you see why they choose to ignore what you are saying. You denying the possibility and credit of the bible is like them denying the possibility and credit of science. You're acting just as "black and white" as they are, and that's your downfall in my opinion.

It goes both ways, you need to move more toward the gray area, that's where the truth is. If you continue to completely discredit the bible then you will continue to not get it. The bible holds a wealth of truth and knowledge, you just have to know where to find it and how to pick out the lies. Just some friendly advice.