reply to post by pepsi78
YOU WROTE :
“The exact name in the bible is Helel ben Shahar - it is from the part with LUCIFER in the Bible, not the part where the king of Tyre is directly
addressed. Heilel is son of Sahar in a Phonician Myth. Dawn means SAHAR in Farsi and also in Arabic, making HELEIEL the Son of the Dawn (morning)
the Morning Star.
This is from the Phonician [sic] myth with Heilel son of Sahar wanting to overthrow the cheif [sic] god (phonician [sic] myth) ..then it is clear
that the king of Tyre is no other than this character and that the other part from the bible where he is named the same, Helel ben Shahar, then it is
the same character . Tyre is a Phonician [sic] city…”
I WROTE :
‘By examination of the historical underpinnings, the Weltanschauung, the Technical paleoHebrew Language, the actual Style of Utterance, the Syntax
and the specific Vocabulary being used, we can date the oracles of proto-Isaiah (e.g. chapters 1 to 39) of which chapter 14 forms a part, to to c. 722
- 701 BCE i.e. during the Assyrian invasion of the northern Kingdom of 'Yisro'el' and has nothing to do with Nebuchadrezzar (Nabodinus
I also mentioned that in Chapter 14 of ProtoIsaiah, there is no referent to the King of Tyre either…but more of that later.
From your posts, you still seem quite confused and out of touch in the ways in which the ancient discrete Levantine Poetic Oracles were transmitted
in Antiquity – I did not originally want to get too off-topic with background issues but it seems you need another ancient history lesson and some
literary background to the texts you clearly are not understanding (to judge from your confused postings on this Thread).
At any rate, you show no working knowledge of the Literary Processes by which these discrete (separate) paleoHebew Poetic ‘pre Exilic’ Oracles
were worked up e.g. into the Book of Isaiah that you now read in your bible in English (this process was carried out several generations later than
the times of the author(s) - and the oracles are NOT in order…
See e.g. the clumsy way in which these discrete poetic Oracles were combined and recombined out of historical or literary order – resulting in quite
a mess of discrete oracular sayings and poems which were uttered over several centuries by at least 3 different ‘prophets’ all going under the
same name of Isaiah –(hence the Book which bears his name )
As I mentioned earlier, the book is clearly composed of at least (3) different prophetic writers speaking in and regarding (3) different time periods
whose later editors added (much later than the poetical sections) their own PROSE (i.e. the non-poetic chapter divisions / introductions which are
clearly written in a later style of paleoHebrew) in order to recast older poetic ‘prophetic’ oracles (i.e. after the fact, aka ‘ex-eventu’)
in order to apply them to later personages, events & to bolster later theological systems – one cannot automatically assume that the PROSE
introductions to some of these oracles were correct in terms of ‘to whom’ any given oracle or set of oracles was addressed originally -
You’ll notice that chapter 14 of the 1st Isaiah (i.e. Proto-Isaiah) has a number of these later PROSE (non poetic) additions which seem to apply
portions of the oracles contained in that chapter to the King of Babylon or against Babylon in a more general sense.
The oracles contained in chapters 1-39 (i.e. ‘Proto-Isaiah’) are written in an EARLIER style of paleo Hebrew, dated c. 710- 705 BCE, i.e. during
the ASSYRIAN (not Babylonian) invasions of the Northern kingdom (‘of Yisro’el’) and the failed attempt by the Assyrians to take the walled city
of Jerusalem in Judah – which seems to have been the ORIGINAL ‘historical’ underpinning for the Taunt Oracle (‘O thou Lucifer Star of the
i.e. following the Assyrian Army’s withdrawal from Jerusalem following a plague of some sort in which the Judaeans (and all those Refugee Northern
Israelite families who had more than quintupled the size of once-tiny Jerusalem according to modern archaeological digs over a period of 10 years !)
must have seen as some kind of last-minute ‘divine’ intervention not lost on the writer of Proto-Isaiah…
The language of the ‘Star of the Morn’ Oracles can be lifted out of its later PROSE header which (erroneously) places it in context with
‘Babylon’ and when examined as a separate literary entity – as with most of the oracles in the whole book - we can discern that it bears no
relation linguistically to later Babylonian oracles say by the prophet Hezekiel (writing c. 550 BCE) –
Here is the text of the Masoretic version (compiled c. 1000 CE) – you can see that it is addressed (in the actual oracle) to A MAN, not to a nation,
and that even though the PROSE intro mentions ‘a taunt against Babylon’, this is a later editorial PROSE addition to the poetical oracles within
an earlier group of poetical utterances that mention specifically ASSYRIA –
And again, TYRE has naught to do with any of this section - scholars have unearthed tablets which show that BOTH Hebrew terms Helel, (i.e. the
morning star) and Shahar, (i.e. the Dawn) were astral deities that were worshipped all over the Levant (not just at Ugarit in Phoenicia or even at
Jerusalem, after which the morning Tamid sacrifice in the Temple was named !) – we see both HELEL and SHAHAR (and their cognates) mentioned in texts
in Akkadian, Cannanite, Babylonian and ALSO Assyrian) so (contrary to your confused and unwarranted belief !) the city of Tyre is not a definitive
literary or poetic link here in proto-Isaiah Chatper 14 - they are familiar terms in the Levant generally and have no link to any one particular
Here are two of the later INSERTIONS into the text –
And don’t for a minute ever be fooled into thinking the 'Book of Isaiah' that you read in your 'bible' (in translation) is anything like a
literary ‘unity’ – (when not even chapter 14 is a ‘literary unity’ at all but like the rest of the book is composed of discrete patches of
oracles and parts of oracles that were not always meant to sit next to each other in the text…)
14: 3 PROSE (non poetical) HEADER written in a later & different Hebrew style ( c. 500 BCE) and INSERTED
“On the day YHWH gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, you will take up this Taunt against the
King of Babylon:”
14: 22 ADDED PROSE (non poetical) Section - (written in later paleoHebrew style and INSERTED into the text)
“I will wipe out Babylon’s name and its survivors with her offspring and descendants,” declares YHWH - I will turn her into a place for owls and
into Swampland and will sweep her with the broom of Destruction,” says YHWH.”
PreExilic POETIC ORACLE #1 (c. 701 BCE)
YHWH has broken the rod of the Wicked,
Yea, he has smashed the Scepter of the Rulers !
In Anger he down the Goyim with unceasing Blows,
And in fury subdued the Gentiles with relentless Force !
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury has ended!
All the lands are at rest and at Peace;
The Junipers [of the Forest] will break into taunting -
Yea, the Cedars of Lebanon will gloat over you, saying:
“Now that you have been laid so low, none will come again to cut us down.”
The Realm of the Dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming;
The Spirits of the Dead are newly-awakened to Greet you—
All the Rulers in the World now rise from their Graves
And the Kings over the Gentiles respond to you saying:
“Now you too are as weak, as we [are]; you have become just like us.
Your pomp & the sound of your Harps have been brought down to the Pit
Behold, maggots are spread out beneath you; lo the worms cover you. ! “
PreExilic POETIC ORACLE (2) c. 710 BCE
YHWH El Elyon has sworn,
I will crush the Assyrian in my land;
on my mountains I will trample him down.
His yoke will be taken from my people,
and his burden removed from their shoulders.”
This is the plan determined for the whole world;
this is the hand stretched out over all the Goyim
“I will rise up against them,” declares YHWH El Elyon !
When YHWH El Elyon has purposed, and who can thwart him?
When his hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?
PreExilic POETIC ORACLE (3) (c. 705 BCE)
How you have fallen from Heaven,
[Helel ben- Shahar – Shining Star, Son of the Dawn] !
You who once laid low the Gentiles
Have now been cast down to the ground!
For you said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the Heavens;
I will raise my throne above the stars of EL
I will sit enthroned on the mount of Assembly,
Even upon the Heights of Mount Zaphon.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the El Elyon !”
But now you have been cast down
And have fallen to the Depths of Sheol
Even to the very Realm of the Dead !
All that see you stare at you, pondering your Fate, saying:
“Is this the MAN who shook the Earth
and made Kingdoms tremble,
the man who made the land [of Yisroel] a desert
Who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives return?”
See, the Gentile Kings lie in State each in their tomb.
But you lie outside of your Grave like a rejected twig;
Yea, you are covered over with the Corpses of the Slain,
with those pierced by the sword those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot, you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land and killed your own people.
A different ORACLE #3
(textually linked to the earlier Oracles by catch words e.g. ‘cover’ and ‘rise’)
May the sons of the Wicked never be mentioned again. Prepare a place to slaughter his children & for the sins of their Ancestors; they are not to
rise to inherit the land & cover the ground with their cities. "
When scholars examine not only the subject matter (historical underpinnings) of these discrete oracles, but also their Syntax, Vocabulary, Theology,
Weltanschauung, the actual Poetic Style of Utterance, and also the peculiar Sentence length, the idiosyncratic consonantal spelling of certain words
, the meters employed, etc. a separate style of PaleoHebrew emerges in chapters 1-39 from say, that style which occurs in Deutero-Isaiah (chapters
40-55, dated c. 550 BCE) and that which was used by the oracles found in Trito Isaiah (i.e. chapters 56-66 dated c. 500-480 BCE after the fall of
Babylon by the Persians, and the ‘Return’ of the 4 of the originally 24 priestly Familes from their forced Babylonian Exile (begun in 587 BCE) in
various Babylonian towns & villages).
Does this help clear things up for you?
Or do I have to write even more tedious technical background?