Where does the idea that Freemasons worship Lucifer come from??

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posted on Oct, 22 2004 @ 11:17 PM
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Many people have this idea that Freemasons worship Lucifer, and that this is their God of Light. Where did this idea come from? Is there any basis to this? Some quote Morals and Dogma where a line says something about Lucifer being God or something. Why is there many people that think Freemasons worship the devil? I just don't get it. This must have started somewhere.




posted on Oct, 22 2004 @ 11:29 PM
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It really has to do with several things. First, LUCIFER is NOT the name of the evil one. The passage was mistranslated, and the passage speaking of the fallen one reference Nebuchadnezzar, NOT the devil.

Masons seek light, and what Pike wrote was what a strange name to call the prince of darkness, Lucifer, the name of the bright and shinning morning star.

The second problem comes from folks that have not read M&D, or, more closely, do not UNDERSTAND that Pike was speaking respecting comparative religions, not OF religion.

Masons worship g-d as each of them know Him/her. Some, Catholics/Protestants know Him as the trinity or as Jesus. Some, know Him as the great mover. Some as jehovah, some as SHiva, others, other ways. Masonry has not specific godhead. It is NOT a religion. As you should know, having GONE through the first degree.

Masonry is a fraternity of religious men. So the accusation is a lie. A stupid, callow, hateful lie, but a lie nonetheless.



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 12:12 AM
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Theron, I hear of these so called evils all the time, but I see no proof of this, my late father was a PM of 76, and Knight of the Red Cross, and he was also confused as to where this information came from. He was provided some books on Freemasonry such as "Behind The Lodge Door", and he told me that a majority of the book was false.

I know Masonry for what it is, however my church does not feel the same way. My church and faith comes first in my life, and in the video from another thread, even the Freemason there says that his Christian Faith comes before Freemasonry.

It is really too bad, that so many lies have been thought to be truth in regards to Freemasonry.

I worked a coop placement with Big Brothers/Big Sisters, and I recently met with the Director, and she told me the Freemasons in Ingersoll donate to their cause regularily ever year, and are very supportive. This is great, the Knights of Columbus in the area also support BB/BS.

Freemasons donations to charity are commendable, if there is some common ground between Knights of Columbus and Freemasons, it is there service towards charity, and charitable causes.

Scripture says you will know them by their fruits, and that a good tree can not bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree bear good fruit.

The Charitable activities of Freemasonry, are "good fruits". It is really a shame that lies have been spread about Freemasonry, I really have yet to see something evil in the organization.

The video posted in another thread, is a good one, I hope more view it.



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 12:27 AM
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I know what you mean... Masons donate time, money and services for free to the community, and for the most part, never tell anyone what we do or ask anything in return.

Yet what we seem to reap is spite and hate from the ignorant and unwashed, and while I could deal with ignorance, deliberate hate and spite from folks that are NOT interested in the truth but cleave to the lies is almost too much for even a patient man to deal with...

But masonry teaches me temperance, fortitude, prudence, justice, brotherly love, relief and truth, among other virutes, and I will cleave to these teachings, even in the face of hate... or, more accurately, in spite of them. The hateful only confirm for me the good in masonry.



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 02:48 AM
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What I know of the "Morals and Dogmas" quote attributed to Pike is that a significant portion of it was a libelous passage attributed to being from Pike, the true author of which recanted his false quote much later...

However, the false statements attributed to Pike have been repeated often, most often in a little cartoon propaganda piece entitled "Curse of Baphomet", which insinuates that Freemasons worship a demon named baphomet. the Truth being that Freemasons all believe in God (or at least attest to a belief in God).

The bottom line is that when you have an organization that keeps some of its information from the public, persons in the public will make up things to believe about that organization.



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 03:28 AM
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www.freemasoninfo.ca...

for those who do not have th background of explanation regarding the baphomet.



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 07:31 AM
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I grew up around a ton of people that where masons, and have been asked to join more times then I care to recount. My grandfather, two of my best friends, and their fathers where all masons. My grandmother was a member of the order of the eastern star, and at some point, my mother was a member of Job's daughters .

Anyway, the first time I was asked I was still in school, and came home and asked my mother if I could join with my friends. I was told that if I did I would be excommunicated from my church. When I asked why this was I received some response about not being able to pray with others that where praying to foreign gods. This did not make much sense to me since my church had a boy scout group that went on trips where there where troupes from around the world, and the pastor used to go with us.

When I was a bit older, I was engaged to someone whose father was a mason and asked me to join with him. Since P$$n off the future father-in-law before the deal was sealed seemed like a bad Idea, I did a bit of research on my own to decide for myself. This is some of what I came across, and why I chose not to join:


DISCLAIMER
Now like I said, I mean no offence about this, it is what I found, believe, and why I decided not to join. You asked where this came from, so do not flame me for my answers. I found most of this on my own and not from some web site that’s out there, I do not even think that there where any websites about this when I came to this conclusion.



First, you need to understand there is a difference between Satanism and Luciferianism, Satanist generally worship themselves and their impulses, Luciferian’s believe that in improving oneself, you can become god.

The symbol for Satanism is the upside down five-pointed star with a goat’s head in the center, which is one of the symbols you already mentioned, Baphomet. The symbol for Luciferianism is an up right five pointed star with a man standing in it with his arms straight out to the sides, and his legs spread apart. Pike wore a Baphomet because he WAS a Satanist.

Then we have the issue of the eastern star, Venus, which there is tons of documentation about being Lucifer’s star to begin with, the star of the morning. Masonry is loaded with these five-pointed stars including their symbol for god the eastern star.

The masons believe that if they go through the ranks, and follow all the morality plays to complete each level, they can become the Upright Masonic Man, which is very similar to what Luciferianism teaches. Think back to the story of Lucifer in the Garden, what was it that he promised Eve if she ate the apple? That she would become Like God.

Tubal-Cain is another factor, who was he? He is spoken of very little in the Bible other then being mentioned as the first artificer, but if you read any of the psudopigraphal books of the bible, there is a bit more information on him and his twin brother. What you will find there is that Tubal and his brother Jubal where descendants of Cain, that made the first instruments and opened the first of what you could call bars. It states that demons would enter into the instruments when they where being played by them. So these where the first men in the Bible to have some kind of demon possession going on.

We also have the issue of being born again into masonry during the initiation in the first degree of becoming a mason, I had a problem with being, “Born again”, into anything but Christianity.

So that is the short list of some of the similarities I found between these two beliefs, and why I did not join. There are other similarities and more facts then this, but it is enough to give you a starting point. Some of this stuff like about Tubal-Cain, I don’t think you will find any other reference to other then to read the books of Eden, Enoch, and so on, but then again you might.


One more thing that I should point out in closing this is that I personally do not believe that most masons even realize where some of this symbolism comes from, to them it is just a fraternity and these things are part of the traditions. The real reasons behind these traditions may even have been lost over time to all but those of the highest ranks, and I do not mean 32-33rd degree ranks, I mean like the guys that run the whole organization, and even they may not know about them anymore. There are just too many similarities for me to consider it a total coincidence though…


[edit on 10/23/2004 by defcon5]



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 07:47 AM
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defcon5,

Your post shows only one thing.

You know NOTHING about Freemasonry. Period.



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by senrak
defcon5,

Your post shows only one thing.

You know NOTHING about Freemasonry. Period.



Actually, I know enough.

What is it that you say I do not know about from the above post?
Show me where I am wrong?

All these things are symbols in a Masonic lodge, and organizations, I have sat through plenty of bloody ceremonies there when people where getting there ranks for this or that.


Every lodge has a big old eastern star with a G in the center, on the eastern wall.
I can find 5-pointed star after star in their drawing and literature.
I can EASILY find a depiction of the Upstanding Masonic Man; I can even draw it from memory.
And so on…

Besides I said no flaming, I was polite, now you are just dismissing me out of hand, show me where I am wrong…



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 09:32 AM
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This Lucifer topic has been covered countless times. It's old-hat. There are several threads dedicated to it. Please use the ATS "search" function to view them.



[edit on 23-10-2004 by LTD602]



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 11:03 AM
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I really don't have the time, but here's a little bit for you.


Originally posted by defcon5
Actually, I know enough.


Enough what? Nonsense and dribble?




What is it that you say I do not know about from the above post?
Show me where I am wrong?


OK. I'll take the previous post apart bit by bit for you. But you still won't believe...because I'm a Mason and obviously trying to mislead you.



All these things are symbols in a Masonic lodge, and organizations,


What things? What organizations?




I have sat through plenty of bloody ceremonies there when people where getting there ranks for this or that.


What bloody ceremonies? Must have been some other organization...because FIRST of all...Masonic ceremonies AREN'T bloody...AND unless you're a Mason yourself (which you obviously aren't) you couldn't have "sat through" them because ONLY Masons are allowed to witness them. No exceptions. (Oh it's "their" not "there" maybe a visit back to Grammar class would help you out...) How old are you anyway?




Every lodge has a big old eastern star with a G in the center, on the eastern wall.


Nope. Not mine. Not several that I know of. I have seen the Eastern Star in Lodges where the Order of the Easter Star meets in the Lodge-hall, but there is no "G" in the center of the Star. The G is in the center of the Square & Compasses (in the United States) Elsewhere around the world it sometimes is and sometimes isnt' Some Lodges simply have a "G" suspended in the symbolic East (which by the way isn't always literally East...depends on how the Lodge was built) The "East" in my Lodge actually faces South. Go figure.



I can find 5-pointed star after star in their drawing and literature.


Bully for you. So what?




I can EASILY find a depiction of the Upstanding Masonic Man; I can even draw it from memory.


Oh goodie! Would you do that for us? We'd LOVE to see your artistic abilities. But again, so what? What purpose does this serve? Anything wrong with an "upstanding Masonic Man?"



And so on…


Yadda yadda, etc. etc. ad nauseaum...




Besides I said no flaming, I was polite, now you are just dismissing me out of hand, show me where I am wrong…


I haven't dismissed anyone out of hand in a long time (I think). Besides you aren't being polite. You're trolling. If my post sounds curt it's because I'm sick to death of trolls and Anti-Masonic crap. I used to laugh the silly nonsense off, but am at a point in my life where I've decided that I'm going to call BS what it really is.

(I'll take your previous post apart for you now)




[edit on 23-10-2004 by senrak]



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
I grew up around a ton of people that where masons, and have been asked to join more times then I care to recount.


Your first error (ahem...lie) Masons do not do not DO NOT solicit membership. A man has to ask a Mason to join. We do not ask him.



My grandfather, two of my best friends, and their fathers where all masons. My grandmother was a member of the order of the eastern star, and at some point, my mother was a member of Job's daughters .


And you hate Masons with all these family members of yours having been a part of our fraternity? Interesting indeed.



Anyway, the first time I was asked I was still in school,


Uhm...which school? Grammar School? You have to be AT LEAST 18 (and in some states 21) to be a Mason. Are you talking about the Order of DeMolay for Boys? If so, while it's sponsored by Masons, it's NOT Masonry.



and came home and asked my mother if I could join with my friends.



Refer to above. If you had to ask your mother then you must not have been an adult (or not much of one) and therefore ineligible to be a Mason.



I was told that if I did I would be excommunicated from my church.


Some denominations actually will do this. It is for that reason alone that I chose an enlightened denomination.



When I asked why this was I received some response about not being able to pray with others that where praying to foreign gods.


Straight from the lips and minds of uninformed anti-Masons. Pure garbage.
(Oh and it's "were" not "where")



This did not make much sense to me


Nor does it to me.



since my church had a boy scout group that went on trips where there where troupes from around the world, and the pastor used to go with us.


This is a classic example of not seeing the forest for the trees.



When I was a bit older, I was engaged to someone whose father was a mason and asked me to join with him.



He must not have been a very good Mason or he'd never have asked you. Are you sure he wasn't a member of the Moose Lodge or something like that?



Since P$$n off the future father-in-law before the deal was sealed seemed like a bad Idea,


Yeah. Do like I did and pi$$ him off AFTER the wedding. :-)



I did a bit of research on my own



Here we go....



to decide for myself. This is some of what I came across, and why I chose not to join:

First, you need to understand there is a difference between Satanism and Luciferianism, Satanist generally worship themselves and their impulses, Luciferian’s believe that in improving oneself, you can become god.


I'm going to let this one pass. You need to do a LOT more research on who Lucifer REALLY was. There's only one religion per se that I know of that teaches that you literally become god....but that's been discussed on this list before. Do a search if you're interested in the thread.




The symbol for Satanism is the upside down five-pointed star with a goat’s head in the center, which is one of the symbols you already mentioned, Baphomet.



Here we go with Baphomet again. Do a search...this has been discussed over and over....and has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MASONIC ORDER. Period.




The symbol for Luciferianism is an up right five pointed star with a man standing in it with his arms straight out to the sides, and his legs spread apart. Pike wore a Baphomet because he WAS a Satanist.


Pike NEVER "wore a Baphomet" (whatever that even means) Show me where he did! Pike wasn't a Satanist...Pike was a Trinitarian Christian. a devout Episcopalian.



Then we have the issue of the eastern star, Venus, which there is tons of documentation about being Lucifer’s star to begin with, the star of the morning. Masonry is loaded with these five-pointed stars including their symbol for god the eastern star.


Nope. Wrong. No cigar. Why do you think Masonry is "loaded" with these stars? The 5 pointed star is used as a symbol in Masonry. The Blazing Star representing Divine Providence. No secret there. Nothing evil. The ORder of the Eastern Star (a group for Master Masons and their female relatives) uses the 5 pointed star to represent the Star of Bethelehem that led the 3 wise men to the birthplace of the Christ. (OOOO! Sounds pretty evil, huh?)



The masons believe that if they go through the ranks, and follow all the morality plays to complete each level, they can become the Upright Masonic Man, which is very similar to what Luciferianism teaches.



No. We believe a good Mason will BE an upright, moral man. Other groups teach their members to be upright, moral and honest....does that make them Masonic?




Think back to the story of Lucifer in the Garden, what was it that he promised Eve if she ate the apple? That she would become Like God.


Lucifer wasn't there. Satan was. Again, this has NOTHING to do with Masonry.



Tubal-Cain is another factor, who was he? He is spoken of very little in the Bible other then being mentioned as the first artificer, but if you read any of the psudopigraphal books of the bible, there is a bit more information on him and his twin brother. What you will find there is that Tubal and his brother Jubal where descendants of Cain, that made the first instruments and opened the first of what you could call bars. It states that demons would enter into the instruments when they where being played by them. So these where the first men in the Bible to have some kind of demon possession going on.


What a zaney statement. Again, what does this have to do with Masonry? Tubal-cain is significant in a few of the degrees, as are several other Biblical characters.




We also have the issue of being born again into masonry during the initiation in the first degree of becoming a mason,


Never happens. Whoever told you this lied. There is NO being "born again" in the Masonic Order. Even in the legend of the builder (which is 3rd degree, not 1st) No one is "born again" Silly nonsense. Anti-Masonic dribble.



I had a problem with being, “Born again”, into anything but Christianity.


Christianity is the only institution that I know of where a person IS said to be "born again." The wide-spread use of the term seems to be centered around Christian fundamentalists too (most of the older, conservative denominations shy away from this expression) Most Christian fundamentalists are notoriously anti-Masonic, by the way, so I don't give them much (if any) consideration.



So that is the short list of some of the similarities I found between these two beliefs, and why I did not join.


Oh, are we through already? I must have missed the similarities. I'll go back and re-read.



There are other similarities and more facts then this, but it is enough to give you a starting point. Some of this stuff like about Tubal-Cain, I don’t think you will find any other reference to other then to read the books of Eden, Enoch, and so on, but then again you might.


Uhm. Well, OK. (I think) Oh, and another spelling/grammar point: it's "than" not "then" in the above sentence.



One more thing that I should point out in closing this is that I personally do not believe that most masons even realize where some of this symbolism comes from, to them it is just a fraternity and these things are part of the traditions. The real reasons behind these traditions may even have been lost over time to all but those of the highest ranks, and I do not mean 32-33rd degree ranks, I mean like the guys that run the whole organization, and even they may not know about them anymore.


Probably the silliest statement you've made. 32nd, 33rd, etc. etc. have nothing to do with anyone "running the whole organization" There is no centralized Masonic Authority. Each Grand Lodge (one in every U.S. state) and one in every free country around the globe) is autonymous. And members of the Grand Lodges (the officers) need only be 3rd Degree Masons (Master Mason) 32nd & 33rd are numbers of degrees but not higher degrees than Master Mason (3rd Degree) This, too and the fact that there is NO "supreme" Grand Lodge etc. has been discussed over and over on this forum and more information is readily available on the web, in libraries and bookstores from legitimate Masonic sources.



There are just too many similarities for me to consider it a total coincidence though…


All I can say to that, is it's too bad. You're missing out on a really good thing, but if you honestly feel that way, don't join because we don't want you if you feel that way about Masonry. But don't spread untruths about it. You've obviously done far too little research (or far too much from unreliable sources) to be speaking out against Freemasonry.

It isn't for everyone. Thank goodness.



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 12:36 PM
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Well said Senrak...

His objections don't make sense...

Oh, and about the five-pointed star, the pentagram,... it was only adopted as a satanic symbol around the 1960s. It has been employed in almost every other religion as well as geometry and design for centuries upon centuries before that...



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by chief_counsellor
Many people have this idea that Freemasons worship Lucifer, and that this is their God of Light. Where did this idea come from?


"Lucifer" was originally one of the Roman names for Apollo, the Greek sun deity, thus the "god of light". It seems to have been first associated with Masonry by a few Theosophists who were also Masons and wrote some Masonic books. In Theosophy, Lucifer is a symbol of intellectual enlightenment, but some readers have confused the word with the Lucifer of Christian mythology, thus the misunderstanding.


Is there any basis to this? Some quote Morals and Dogma where a line says something about Lucifer being God or something. Why is there many people that think Freemasons worship the devil? I just don't get it. This must have started somewhere.


Pike does not say that Lucifer is God in "Morals and dogma", or anywhere else. In M&D, Pike briefly mentions that the Latin word "Lucifer" means "light bearer", and then comments that this was a strange name for the medieval Church to give to its devil (Pike seems to have believed that Satan was a Hebrew version of the Egyptian deity Set, who was a bringer of darkness, instead of light).

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by JaseP
Well said Senrak...

His objections don't make sense...

Oh, and about the five-pointed star, the pentagram,... it was only adopted as a satanic symbol around the 1960s. It has been employed in almost every other religion as well as geometry and design for centuries upon centuries before that...


Many thanks! You're right about the star. A good book called "Crafting the Art of Magic" which is out of print, but very interesting and deals specifically with Witchcraft and it's rise in popularity in recent decades as well as it's history, etc. including info on Satanist, etc.

Somewhere in past threads I posted two links that ol' defcon5 should read. One is for a pamphlet called "There's No Sin in Symbols" the other is the complete text of the book "Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry?" This book deals with the Albert Pike lie (claims that he said Masons worship Lucifer, etc.) the symbolism of the 5 pointed star (both with the point up and with the point down) and other interesting things.

Regards,



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 12:45 PM
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In Christian Theology, Lucifer was the name of the devil, when he used to be an angel.

Lucifer was the greatest of all angels, 2nd only to God, he became proud of his power and prestige, and felt that he could be greater than God, and place his throne above that of the most high.

St. Micheal and the heavenly battalions, cast out Lucifer from heaven, and he lost his angelic seat, and became "satan" or "adversary". 1/3 of the angels of heaven fell with Lucifer.

This is where the image of St. Micheal trampling on the devil comes from.



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by chief_counsellor
In Christian Theology, Lucifer was the name of the devil, when he used to be an angel.

Lucifer was the greatest of all angels, 2nd only to God, he became proud of his power and prestige, and felt that he could be greater than God, and place his throne above that of the most high.

St. Micheal and the heavenly battalions, cast out Lucifer from heaven, and he lost his angelic seat, and became "satan" or "adversary". 1/3 of the angels of heaven fell with Lucifer.

This is where the image of St. Micheal trampling on the devil comes from.


You know, I keep hearing and reading that, but having read the bible, I can find no account of this great battle... would you mind directing me to the book, chapter and verse(s) that describe this? Oh, and would you mind telling me where in the bible Lucifer appears as a name for satan? I can only find one, and in the original aramaic, it does nos appear at all... perhaps I am just confused or not reading the correct bible? KJV seems to be the gold standard.



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by chief_counsellor
In Christian Theology, Lucifer was the name of the devil, when he used to be an angel.

Lucifer was the greatest of all angels, 2nd only to God, he became proud of his power and prestige, and felt that he could be greater than God, and place his throne above that of the most high.

St. Micheal and the heavenly battalions, cast out Lucifer from heaven, and he lost his angelic seat, and became "satan" or "adversary". 1/3 of the angels of heaven fell with Lucifer.

This is where the image of St. Micheal trampling on the devil comes from.


I heard that Satan was cast out of Heaven because he refused to bow down to God's creation in His own image,... man. There are actually a lot of stories regarding where Satan comes from,... unfortunately, none of them are Bibilican cannon, so there will always be disagreement.

[edit on 23-10-2004 by JaseP]



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 01:15 PM
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Quite hostile, aren’t we, what did I touch a nerve, or was this thread for three masons to sit and say…

Why do people say this about us…
I don’t know, we are such great guys…


Originally posted by senrak
Your first error (ahem...lie) Masons do not do not DO NOT solicit membership. A man has to ask a Mason to join. We do not ask him.



Well, sorry to say, there must not be many good masons out there, because I have been ASKED to join no less then 5 times in my life.



Originally posted by senrak
And you hate Masons with all these family members of yours having been a part of our fraternity? Interesting indeed.



I never said I HATED masons, as a matter of fact I tried to be as non-inflammatory as possible and still answer the post



Originally posted by senrak
Uhm...which school? Grammar School? You have to be AT LEAST 18 (and in some states 21) to be a Mason. Are you talking about the Order of DeMolay for Boys? If so, while it's sponsored by Masons, it's NOT Masonry.



You are correct, it was DeMolay, which is a Masonic organization, if not an actual mason. My point in the story was that this was where my interaction with the masons, at any level, began.



Originally posted by senrak
Straight from the lips and minds of uninformed anti-Masons. Pure garbage.
(Oh and it's "were" not "where")



Straight from the mouth of my church, and get off the spelling, see how good you spell after a 12 hour night shift, Also I use a spell checker that occasionally tends to change what it is that I have typed on its own.


Next several quotes nothing but insults and not worth answering…



Originally posted by senrak
I'm going to let this one pass. You need to do a LOT more research on who Lucifer REALLY was. There's only one religion per se that I know of that teaches that you literally become god....but that's been discussed on this list before. Do a search if you're interested in the thread.



“God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3: 5 King James Version, The Bible and King Solomon’s Temple In Masonry By John Wesley Kelchner, Illustrated, 1924, 1925, 1929, 1930, 1940 by A.J. Holman and Company.

My Grandfathers Bible.

Please note the difference in God and, “as gods.”



Originally posted by senrak
Here we go with Baphomet again. Do a search...this has been discussed over and over....and has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MASONIC ORDER. Period.



Funny it is the symbol to the Order of the Eastern Star, by your own admission a club for masons and their wives.



Originally posted by senrak
Pike NEVER "wore a Baphomet" (whatever that even means) Show me where he did! Pike wasn't a Satanist...Pike was a Trinitarian Christian. a devout Episcopalian.



Funny I have seen a picture of him wearing one, I will get it to you later after I get back up.



Originally posted by senrak
The Blazing Star representing Divine Providence.



BLAZING you say, kind luminous?



Originally posted by senrak
The Order of the Eastern Star (a group for Master Masons and their female relatives) uses the 5 pointed star to represent the Star of Bethelehem that led the 3 wise men to the birthplace of the Christ.



Yep, too bad they hung it upside down, EH?
Yes we are all aware that when children drawn simplistic stars in the sky of a picture they do it with the point facing the ground, or maybe children are just smarter then you, and draw them UPRIGHT…

Bethlehem is not spelled right.



Originally posted by senrak
Lucifer wasn't there. Satan was. Again, this has NOTHING to do with Masonry.



Actually it only says the serpent, I will check in the psudopigraphial books later, and get back with you.



Originally posted by senrak
What a zaney statement. Again, what does this have to do with Masonry? Tubal-cain is significant in a few of the degrees, as are several other Biblical characters.



He is not even significant enough in the Bible to get more then a line, why is he significant to you at all?

Zany is spelled incorrectly



Originally posted by senrak
Never happens. Whoever told you this lied. There is NO being "born again" in the Masonic Order. Even in the legend of the builder (which is 3rd degree, not 1st) No one is "born again" Silly nonsense. Anti-Masonic dribble.



“The final painting (page 8) illustrates the symbolic death and rebirth that candidates experience at later stages of initiation” Mysteries of the Unknown, Ancient Wisdom and Secret Sects, Page 8, Time Life Books.



Originally posted by senrak
Christianity is the only institution that I know of where a person IS said to be "born again." The wide-spread use of the term seems to be centered around Christian fundamentalists too (most of the older, conservative denominations shy away from this expression) Most Christian fundamentalists are notoriously anti-Masonic, by the way, so I don't give them much (if any) consideration.



Actually I am a Lutheran, not a Fundamentalist. True they do not use the term, “Born Again”, but that does not mean that I do not know what this term implies, and as such shy away from any organization that is going to make me reenact such an event.


More stupid insults to ignore…



Originally posted by senrak
Probably the silliest statement you've made. 32nd, 33rd, etc. etc. have nothing to do with anyone "running the whole organization" There is no centralized Masonic Authority. Each Grand Lodge (one in every U.S. state) and one in every free country around the globe) is autonymous. And members of the Grand Lodges (the officers) need only be 3rd Degree Masons (Master Mason) 32nd & 33rd are numbers of degrees but not higher degrees than Master Mason (3rd Degree) This, too and the fact that there is NO "supreme" Grand Lodge etc. has been discussed over and over on this forum and more information is readily available on the web, in libraries and bookstores from legitimate Masonic sources.



Humorously enough their world headquarters is in the town I am in here in Tampa on Memorial ave. SO, I guess that it is staffed solely by the members of local lodges as full time volunteers, or is there a actual corporate hierarchy to the masons as well?


I think you mean antonymous



Originally posted by senrak
All I can say to that, is it's too bad. You're missing out on a really good thing, but if you honestly feel that way, don't join because we don't want you if you feel that way about Masonry. But don't spread untruths about it. You've obviously done far too little research (or far too much from unreliable sources) to be speaking out against Freemasonry.

It isn't for everyone. Thank goodness.



Well, better to stick with something safe then go onto something that I don’t think that even all the members fully understand. I have read as much as I care to on the subject, and more then enough to make an informed decision for myself, many of my sources where YOUR OWN BOOKS, that were left after my grandfather died.



posted on Oct, 23 2004 @ 01:28 PM
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Well chief_counsellor, I can see just in the last hour or so that I was right. This thread is apparently just for masons to sit and pat each other on the back.

If not why did you start it?

You apparently did not want to know why people relate Lucifer to the Masonic order.

Just needed a few extra points, eh?





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