Why don't you believe? (@Non-Believers and Skeptics)

Originally posted by denver22
reply to post by Pladuim

 

Like a skeptic i look at both sides i see no proof it is an alien in the way people may percieve it
but alien in a way Now all that remains is to determine whether alien means “foreign to normal human genetics within the framework of that subject as it is currently understood,” or “definitely not from planet Earth”…. or something in between...

You misunderstand what a skeptic is.....my freind

But then......read this...alienresistance.org/AnAnalysisoftheGeneticsoftheSupposedStarchild... .

edit on 25-11-2012 by denver22 because: (no reason given)

Giving the amount of research I have done on the UFO/aliens subject over the past 12 years, the experiences I've had with UFO's, and my knowledge about the bible, I have concluded that there is a link between UFO's/aliens and what is written in the bible.

Thanks for the link

Pladuim

reply to post by Pladuim

An Analysis of the Genetics of the Supposed “Starchild” Robert W. Carter, PhD It is very difficult to maintain a sober composure when dealing with outright fraud and lies. With a good fraud, it is very difficult to find the flaws and it can sometimes take a significant amount of one's time to debunk. Recently, I have been reviewing the claims made by certain people involved with the ‘Starchild’ discovery, specifically the reports on the ‘Starchild’ genetics. Because I am not privy to insider information and because I did not take the time to track down witnesses, I am not able to prove any outright lies. However, I did find many lapses of reason, inconsistencies in analysis, and misunderstandings of technique. These folks don't know what they are talking about, and it shows. A pattern of deception is evident upon critical analysis. As a Christian, as a scientist, and as a lover of truth, I would encourage anyone looking into these claims to steer clear of the ‘Starchild’ and its most ardent proponents. In order to make my analysis accessible to the average person, I am going to list and reply to a series of quotes from this page www.starchildproject.com... These are not necessarily in the same order as in the original but can easily be found in their short article. "These nuclear DNA fragments have been analyzed by the National Institutes of Health BLAST program…" In my work, I have used BLAST many, many times. This sentence immediately raises red flags in my mind. Note the tricky language here. The NIH was not involved in the process, yet an uncritical reader might be led to think they were. The BLAST program does not do the analyzing by itself and the NIH does not run BLAST queries for people. Someone from this UFO organization, or their mystery geneticist, had to go to the website, enter the DNA, select a bunch of parameters, run the query and then interpret the results. Somewhere in this process they failed or lied. It is easy to get a BLAST result like they did. All you have to do is enter jibberish. Or, you can set the parameters to something absurd (like demanding a 100% match for a chicken gene while searching the human

Read the link posted my freind be carefull of charalatans... i don't want to keep posting the whole pdf..
But do you see what i mean about fooling people the pye in the sky lies ...

reply to post by Mianeye


Believe in Santa? Of course not. Santa doesn't exist and due to that he, of course, has never been seen. People dress up as Santa for the holidays, but everyone knows it's just a costume. (I'm sure you were going to reply with that)

Have UFOs been seen? Yes. Now i'm not saying they are alien ships. But i'm also not saying they aren't. There's a lot eye witnesses with footage that professionals have looked over and can simply not explain what was seen.

Now, what people see may just be government projects or something less interesting! But who is anyone else to say what it is without some sort of proof that they KNOW what it is? That goes for people who say they KNOW it's aliens too. Because they don't. Everyone is simply working off conjecture.

The fact is, all around the world people are seeing things in the sky, that seem to be unexplained. Therefore, the possibility of them being aliens is still just that.. a possibility.

The same goes for various other paranormal occurrences. They are unexplained and until somebody can prove them any different, people have every right to believe they are ghosts, aliens etc. Because for a lot of cases, there is no other plausible explanation to be given. So it is then that people start to think for themselves. And who knows, they might be on to something.

Originally posted by DJW001
Part of the methodology of science is that it continuously reviewing itself. If a theory is flawed, it will be replaced by another one. When scientists cheat by falsifying their data, they are usually caught out when someone attempts to repeat the experiment and fails to get the same result.

Do you see how erroneous you are making science out to be while at the same time giving praise to it? I'm not saying that the scientific method can't work, I'm simply saying everything we percieve, even when tested and studied, can be false. Thus, science is not the end all be all to perception and faith.

Originally posted by DJW001
The problem with the sort of "spirituality" you seem to be espousing is that it is not self correcting, nor can its results be repeated by others. For example, you believe that UFOs are piloted by demons. What method do you use to test this hypothesis? Your own imagination? Other people, using precisely the same methodology might conclude that they are angels, humans from the future, disembodied beings from Andromeda, etc, etc. Do you modify your beliefs in response to these other researcher's results? Or do you simply continue to believe what you want to believe?

My spirituality, or my belief thereof, changes quite often - not the staple beliefs mind you, but smaller less qualified beliefs that I haven't been able to fit well with other beliefs. That is the basic concept of going to church - to learn and understand more or more accurately.

I think you are confusing religion with a joke someone told you about religion.

As far as demons piloting ufos, I haven't completely worked that one out.

How I come up with my belief system is like so:
I use my own mind to work in sampled evidence I've collected from other people's thoughts, or testimony, to make up my belief system. I test new information I recieve to see if it conflicts with other information I have accepted. If the new information does not conflict with what I have accepted, then I am inclined to store the information. In the event I come across new evidence that reestablishes any of the information that I have previously stored, but not taken in as my belief system, then I may be incline to store that information as percieved truth - aka info of my belief system.

I do not just accept something someone might say simply because they have other beliefs that mirror my own.

I'm interested in why YOU don't believe these things exist. What is it within YOU that believes ETs, UFOs, spirits etc.. DO NOT exist?

I think you should ask this

Who is making you believe there is other way than lord wanted to be ?

How do you believe you may get your redemption from some one except your creator ?

The answer is "satan"

on that day the hypocrites, both men and women, will say to the believers: 'wait for us so that we can take from your light. ' but they will be answered: 'go back and seek a light! ' and a wall with a door shall be between them. inside it there is mercy, and outside will be the punishment. 13

they will call out to them, saying: 'were we not with you? ' 'yes, ' they will reply, 'but you tempted yourselves, you waited (for problems to befall the believers), and you doubted, and were deluded by your own fancies until the command of allah came, and the deluder (satan) deluded you 14

57:13-14

Delusions of far wishes are bringing them to that point.

And they wish to end up living in another body.

They wish to face and end after death.

They wish to find some way to deceive Allah.

But all the wishes are based on illusion and falsehood.

And the truth that he is the passionate may deceive them ,too.

He is passionate and letting us do anything we want , now.

There is no guarantee that all the situations will remain the same after death.

Originally posted by LoveisanArt

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by LoveisanArt

 

Well should you ever need brain surgery...Pray that the neurosurgeon you are under

has done his 14/16 years at university and medical college to be fully trained to specialise

in brain surgery and is NOT relying on pulling something from the 'depth of their mind and

physic and telepathic background'

Funny little chihuahua.. lots of bark, little bite

I will never need any sort of surgery, Im very athletic, never have injured myself, a conscious and honest individual who would never put his one life in harm's way... I havent been to a hospital since my society demanded vaccines as a child.. and never been to a dentist; I have completely straight-white teeth. I know how to live my life..




Many young fit people, such as in th MO you present of yourself have, unfortunately died

at a young age due to no fault of their own....FATE takes no prisoners


Unfortunately for you, you are not in control of RTA's, tumours, or even random psycopaths

hitting you over the head with an iron bar....


That happening - you will need to pray the surgeon has done his time and gained his

qualifactions (with time 'proven' techniques) in 'the REAL world' and NOT during some

random meditation!!!

which is where all your answers appear to be found.

Skeptics and debunkers take just as much emotional comfort in their beliefs as do believers. Having said that, skeptics and debunkers are just as vulnerable to writing off evidence or good ufo cases as the believers are in lapping it up.
Skeptics believe that if it is, it should be. They rarely take into account opposing forces or circumstances outside of their paradigm of understanding that may want to prevent this type of thing from surfacing. How likely is it that an ant colony would bring a human being to introduce to their queen? It just wouldn't happen. If a highly advanced alien civilization wanted to keep itself a secret from a race of neanderthals I think it could.

True skeptics would be skeptical of how likely evidence could appear in this situation and would factor how unlikely empirical evidence would be given the consequences of such a truth emerging. Being skeptical is very black and white. Many use it as a security blanket. Don't bother me with the facts, Ive made up mind already.
Truth be told many skeptics who actually follow through with due diligence in their research can't dismiss the many questions that arise. Hynek, Mack, Friedman, Kerner, to name a few.

Originally posted by Druscilla

Two words:

Empirical Evidence

Show us some Empirical data that any of this stuff is true, and we'll happily line up.

be honest you just can't figure where to file this subject so you just cling to your "empirical evidence" file cabinet which contains only the things you can wrap your head around. quantum physics and its empiricist's wet dream of technology is revealing some pretty strange qualities to the fundamentals of reality so if I was you I wouldn't expect to be able to jam the entirety of the universe and how it works into one tiny little file cabinet. No matter how much you squeeze your eyes the boogeyman is still there. it's the ego that keeps your eyes closed and the "empirical evidence" volume on eleven and that keeps us from growth, both spiritually and technologically.

if you don't want to grow, or are happy living behind the curve of understanding it is your choice, I noticed the "get in line" part which indicates you think in a linear fashion, but it in no way proves that is how reality works.

reply to post by Bleeeeep

Do you see how erroneous you are making science out to be while at the same time giving praise to it? I'm not saying that the scientific method can't work, I'm simply saying everything we percieve, even when tested and studied, can be false. Thus, science is not the end all be all to perception and faith.

I don't understand. How can something that can be confirmed through objective experimentation be false?

My spirituality, or my belief thereof, changes quite often - not the staple beliefs mind you, but smaller less qualified beliefs that I haven't been able to fit well with other beliefs. That is the basic concept of going to church - to learn and understand more or more accurately.

The basic concept of going to Church is to seek comfort in a community. This community is defined by shared beliefs. Church is not intended for discovering the truth, it is intended to reinforce belief.

I think you are confusing religion with a joke someone told you about religion.

I think you are confusing science with a lie that someone told you about science.

As far as demons piloting ufos, I haven't completely worked that one out.

I suspect you are in need of a dramatic paradigm shift.

How I come up with my belief system is like so:
I use my own mind to work in sampled evidence I've collected from other people's thoughts, or testimony, to make up my belief system. I test new information I recieve to see if it conflicts with other information I have accepted. If the new information does not conflict with what I have accepted, then I am inclined to store the information. In the event I come across new evidence that reestablishes any of the information that I have previously stored, but not taken in as my belief system, then I may be incline to store that information as percieved truth - aka info of my belief system.

In other words, you reject anything that does not fit in with your belief system.

I do not just accept something someone might say simply because they have other beliefs that mirror my own.

In other words, if someone has beliefs that are similar to yours, but other beliefs that are not, you will not accept what they say.

reply to post by denver22

"Because I am not privy to insider information and because I did not take the time to track down witnesses, I am not able to prove any outright lies."

the article should end after that but it doesn't and that indicates a charlatan of another sort. there is so much physical evidence for the validity of the skull that skeptics only have the credibility argument left. they are hanging on by a thread which is breaking fast. the entirety of contextual evidence is more than enough to make any rational minded person without an agenda realize this thing is the real deal. Even though it goes against mainstream science the theists oppose it because it shakes the foundations of their beliefs. They will even team up with mainstream science to try and prove it a fake.

simple morphological differences such as non-human eye sockets and non-human brain should raise some interest and study yet the skeptics cling to ad hominem arguments and fallacy fallacies www.fallacyfiles.org... based on the reports of laymen trying to convey the details. charlatans they be in their own right.

Hello I am a self-confessed skeptic so I thought I'd reply.I will say though for once I'm jumping straight in and replying to the OP without reading any replies.Normally I read thru before replying but not today so no doubt i'll make some points that have already beed made so I appologise in advance.

Right,first things first OP but you need to redefine what you think a skeptic is because having a skeptical outlook on aliens,for instance doesnt mean I dismiss them as fantasy.

Being skeptical isnt a solid defined standpoint like a non~believer rather it's an approach rather than a creed or viewpoint.

In my case it's born out of a realistic outlook on day to day life rather than blind optimism or being a pessimist.

Being skeptical doesnt mean I've decided that anything paranormal,extra terrestial or beyond my ability to prove exists doesnt and can't exist.

It simply means if some says they saw a spaceship I tend to bear in mind that 95% of UFO sightings can be explained by misidentification of aircraft or birds so approach it that way.

The point is if 95% can be explained then cleary there's 5% that can't be,of which some will have an earthly orange but some don't.

I dont know whats behind a genuine handful of sightings that defy any rational explanation therefore my mind is open.

I've had a period of a few years where a series of quite dramatic paranormal episodes occured.Now my skeptical mind meant I tried and tried and tried every rational explaination,testing them to exhaustion befrore I admitted it was unexplainable and entertained paranormal reasons but I can say with confidence there was some beyond the normal day to day going on because my skepticism won't allow me to look for exotic explanations till I've seriously ran out of rational ones and coincidence etc.

Eye witness accounts aren't cctv style recordings and time can play tricks with memory so it isnt completely infallable meaning I expect a lot of claims to be genuine mistakes but i'm always open minded and will accept i'm wrong if i am.

As for life elsewhere in the universe I'd be dumbstruck if there wasnt,simple common sense suggest life must be elsewhere,in abundance.Other civilisations are bound to exist too,are they here well that i remain to be convinced of but i admit it's possible.

Skepticism means I like to dismiss all rational possibilities before reaching for the fantastic but even then it's not set in stone as I rely on gut feelings and intuition at times too.

It's all become too partisan with each camp scoring points,even defining themselves in oppositiön to their rivals.

Well i'm in neither camp but make up my own mind.it's open but a healthy scepticism means i'm not believe in it cos some said it exists.

It keeps me honest and grounded but in no way closed minded.

I originally thought this thread started as a discussion to better understand reasoning and differences between the thinking of skeptics and believers. But the Op has turned it into degradation and put downs of everyone he feels that is below his amazing insight or does not agree with him.

Calling humanity Hu-man shows an arrogant raised status in his mind ,IMO. The overuse of emoticon's and LOL's when replying to others shows immaturity and not a Godly understanding coming from his "The mind is a god complex", philosophy.

If a simple exercise like meditation makes us God then we would all be walking on water. If becoming God and awaking my mind means that I have to belittle others to achieve this special gift then I don't want to be a God.

Get off the mountain and hang up the white robes, you are not anymore special than anyone else and you sure aren't God.

As a skeptic, this Hu-man awaits your revelation from your special interactions with the aliens. Give us a new math equation to prove their existence or use your superior knowledge to tell us something concrete without the "I believe" this or that type of nonsense.

reply to post by LoveisanArt


On research missing in debunking...



www.youtube.com...

reply to post by bottleslingguy


As long as Western science is chained to 3D their scope of understanding will be limited to 3D.
Just don't ask me to pretend there are no other paradigms because there are other dimensional realities.

Since the psychiatric community lists all 10 human sensory modalities as hallucination worthy no religious, extraterrestrial, shamanistic experience could be taken seriously. In fact, one's entire existence could fall under the catagory of imagination.

It's ridiculous.

Originally posted by JimOberg
Perhaps the main reason I remain unconvinced by 'proof of UFO reality' is that when carefully checked, so many of those 'proofs' turn out to be inadvertent or even willful misrepresentation, confabulation, and fantasy. If proponents of 'proof' had not turned out to be so defiantly unable to weed out the chaff from the possible wheat, the noise from the potential signal, and to assess fully and honestly even the most 'useful' stories', and to treat evidence maturely, they would have a lot more respect from me than I think they have earned so far.

This is based on your perception of the world.

You dont believe because your observations and ideas over your life time have not experienced ET life or starships... how do you perceive what you cant see?
We humans assume these other beings want to make themselves known ..

MY perspective of humanity, if I were an extraterrestrial, would be NO way! These little children have been killing eachother, setting off bombs, sending things out to space, work endlessly for a money-reward concept... oh yea and stuck in religious foundations...Theres no way they could handle the FACT of an extraterrestrial presence.

They are much smarter then we surface beings are.. this is where ignorance comes to into play when your a "non believer". We judge reality through OUR logic and perception of it. We havent figured out everything yet,, and Im one to believe that there are races out there who have, and they have always been here.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Bleeeeep

 

My spirituality, or my belief thereof, changes quite often - not the staple beliefs mind you, but smaller less qualified beliefs that I haven't been able to fit well with other beliefs. That is the basic concept of going to church - to learn and understand more or more accurately.

The basic concept of going to Church is to seek comfort in a community. This community is defined by shared beliefs. Church is not intended for discovering the truth, it is intended to reinforce belief.

I think you are confusing religion with a joke someone told you about religion.

Well said

Church and religion are an obstruction to one's spiritual journey.. Humans are not ment to worship, they are ment to lead their own lives.

Aliens

reply to post by Druscilla


Do you think the CIA might have some knowledge on the subject?

www.wanttoknow.info...

Do you think global industry is interested in waisting their time?

seeker401.wordpress.com...

Originally posted by LoveisanArt
Im calling out all the Non-believers and skeptics personally; to understand why they do not believe in Extraterrestrial and other unknown phenomena.

Why dont you believe starships, extraterrestrial life, energy, mind power, and multiple dimensions of reality? What makes you belive these things do not exist in all of creation?

Well I am a sceptic do I believe in life elsewhere in the universe of course I do , but does Mog from Zog take a joy ride to Earth on a regular basis I don't think so given the evidence I have seen so far!

Originally posted by LoveisanArt
I'm interested in why YOU don't believe these things exist. What is it within YOU that believes ETs, UFOs, spirits etc.. DO NOT exist? Do you dis-believe because you fear the unknown? Or because you know for a fact it's 'impossible' they can exist?

Oh, I believe aliens exist. I just don't believe they've visited Earth or actually contacted us.

I have a pretty interesting psychology, it's like there are two opposing sides completely at war.

Sometimes, like the OP seems to, I believe in everything. Everything.

Other times, I'm very scientific in my judgments.

And at the end of the day, I have come to no conclusions about anything. I suspect that reality extends so far beyond our current knowledge it would make science embarrassed.

But, I try not to make a habit of making over the top claims....


OP, I generally think you are correct in your sentiment that our current paradigm is too one sided, favoring observation over inference to the point where even the strongest inferences are not credible.


The great Sherlock Holmes said that a talented logician could deduce the existence of the Atlantic and Niagara from a single drop of water..

Alas, Sherlock Holmes is fiction.

Or does he exist in a parallel universe?

Whatever.