"to my God and your God”

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Except he isn't a man anymore, his humanity was what was sacrificed on the cross.

You forget that after dying on the cross, he was raised from the dead.
That was his humanity that was raised from the dead (the divinity would not need to be raised).
That's how he became the pioneer and model for humanity being raised from the dead in the same way.
That's why the Creed says that he IS God and man, not that he used to be man.
As far as the creeds are concerned, the bond between divinity and humanity in Christ is an eternal one. Think about that, because it should be mind-blowing.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
If Jesus is God, why did he state that his Father is our Father....and that his God is our God.
Tell me.

I've already given you the answer to this one.
Christian teaching is that Christ is BOTH God and man.
Inasmuch as he is God, he is God.
Inasmuch as he is man, he has a God.
That;s what he was talking about.

This has exactly the same answer as all the other Incarnation-based conundrums that you come up with.
The Christian teaching is that Christ is BOTH God and man.
Inasmuch as he is God, he is God.
Inasmuch as he is man, then he has a God.

If you prefer it in the archaic language of the Athanasian Creed;
"perfect God and Perfect Man; of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;
Equal to the Father as touching his Godhead;
AND INFERIOR TO THE FATHER AS TOUCHING HIS MANHOOD".

That last point covers your quoted verse.
It's all there.

reply to post by DISRAELI

The Christian teaching is that Christ is BOTH God and man.
Inasmuch as he is God, he is God.
Inasmuch as he is man, then he has a God.

Jesus spoke many things.... him being both God and man is not one of them.

If you prefer it in the archaic language of the Athanasian Creed;

The Athanasian creed is NOT an authority on what Jesus spoke.

My annoyance arises when I read a statement that God the Father's name is Jesus.
Come on...

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
The Athanasian creed is NOT an authority on what Jesus spoke.

Nevertheless, it is an authority on Christian teaching.
I quote it in order to deal with your persistent habit of misrepresenting Christian teaching in order to score cheap debating points.

reply to post by DISRAELI


"The Athanasian creed is NOT an authority on what Jesus spoke. "

Nevertheless, it is an authority on Christian teaching.

How about we all stick to the words of Jesus, for a change?

I quote it in order to deal with your persistent habit of misrepresenting Christian teaching in order to score cheap debating points.

How have I misrepresented Christian teaching?
The words of Jesus in the bible should be enough to base a discussion on what Jesus actually said.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Jesus says his Father is Father to the people as well, and also that his God is also the God of the people.

Some try to point out dualism in the bible and dualism between religions. The only dualism I see is that some worship idols and some worship one God. The basic outline is that Jesus learned from Moses and advanced the teachings based in his knowledge were demonstrated, but they both had an experience and clearly from a modern perspective of studying the literature it was the same type of experience.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
How have I misrepresented Christian teaching?

You misrepresent Christian teaching every time you say "Christians believe that..." and then give an inaccurate statement of what Christians believe. "...that Jesus is God" is an inaccurate statement, because it is only half of what Christians believe on the subject.
But then if you quoted both halves of the Christian teaching, you would have no argument.
Your threads are all about challenging what Christians believe about Christ.
Very well then- they should be about what Christians really do believe. If you invent your own version of Christian teaching and then criticise that, instead of the real thing, then you're just like Don Quixote, attacking windmills and calling them giants.

reply to post by DISRAELI

give an inaccurate statement of what Christians believe. "...that Jesus is God" is an inaccurate statement,

I've heard Christians say Jesus is God. Here on ATS.
How is that an inaccurate statement?

Your threads are all about challenging what Christians believe about Christ.

I base all my threads on the bible. If Christians are having a hard time explaining how Jesus is God, when Jesus said his God is our God... then theres a problem.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I've heard Christians say Jesus is God. Here on ATS.
How is that an inaccurate statement?

It is an inaccurate statement (as I told you in the previous post) because it is incomplete. It is only half the truth.
The Christian teaching is that Christ is BOTH God and man.

Let me use an analogy.
The American flag is called "the Stars and Stripes" because it contains BOTH stars and stripes.
If someone started saying "I can see a stripe on the American flag, which proves there aren't any stars on it", anyone with an eye could see where he was going wrong.
All your threads are variants on the same fallacious argument.
Your line is "This verse shows that Jesus was a man, which proves the Christians wrong", and that line involves suppressing the fact that "Jesus was a man" is part and parcel of Christian teaching. You know what you're doing- I'm just pointing it out to everybody else.

The bible says... "Thou shall not underline every word in your post"

By the way...

reply to post by Akragon

Sorry- that happened accidentally, because there was an "underline" tag, and no "close underline" tag, in the post I was quoting.

PS I have now added the relevant closing tag.
Once upon a time, that error would have added an "underline" to the rest of the thread page.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

This isn't some mysterious riddle or a cryptic message laden with hidden symbols. Rather, its a simple and direct statement that shows exactly where Jesus stood in relation to God and people.

Jesus says his Father is Father to the people as well, and also that his God is also the God of the people. I wish I could expand on this further, but this simple statement speaks volumes for itself.

When we have such resoundingly clear statements from Jesus, that he himself prayed to God, why do Christians insist that Jesus is actually the God he was talking about? Its like me telling a coworker "my boss is your boss" and he interprets that as "I am your boss".

Now I know Christians will start pulling out verses to demonstrate how Jesus is actually God.
Please don't waste your time... instead focus on the statement "my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" and explain how you interpret it as meaning Jesus is God.

Do you interpret those words as meaning Jesus said "I am your Father and I am your God" or "my Father and your Father, who is actually me.... my God and your God, who is actually me"?

I don't believe that Jesus is God, not because I have something against Jesus... but only because of Jesus' own statements that his God is my God too.

Discuss.

edit on 23-11-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Whoops! You are offering sound logic when you're supposed to JUST BELIEVE. Okay?
Just pretend. Okay?

It's just like all the religious claim that god is all-knowing, but god said to Abraham after ordering him to sacrifice his son, "Now I know that you fear me." How come an all-knowing god didn't already know that?

When I ask questions like this to the religious I never get responses TO this observation. I get, "Why do you hate us?" "Why don't you just believe?" "You'll find out when you die."

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


You are right. Jesus is part of god not the whole if you describe god as the awareness that includes all awareness . But in the ONENESS part and whole can become confusing .

reply to post by DISRAELI

It is an inaccurate statement (as I told you in the previous post) because it is incomplete. It is only half the truth.
The Christian teaching is that Christ is BOTH God and man.

There seems to be a problem here.
The last person I was posting to here, made a statement that Jesus is God.
see this post

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

That is why I always refer back to the authoritative statements of Christian teaching, as found in the decisions of the Council of Chalcedon and the Athanasian Creed.
So this discussion comes round full circle to the place where it began.