Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
This isn't some mysterious riddle or a cryptic message laden with hidden symbols. Rather, its a simple and direct statement that shows exactly where
Jesus stood in relation to God and people.
What the words say is simple and direct- how we understand those simple and direct words is at the heart of the matter. If I can get you to understand
the words like I do, then I can alter your perception of the concept. This is the nature of the state of confusion caused by manipulation of the
meanings of words. Control the meaning, control the understanding, control the mind, control the perception.
So let's take this "simple and direct statement" and see what we can do with it. Bear in mind here I'm not saying that the following things are
true: just attempting to illustrate to you why "simple and direct" is not as "simple and direct" as you may think (control the words and control
the perception, and the you may do as you will with the mind). We both know how "simple" it all is- but for some odd reason, "simplicity" has
yielded myriad Christian doctrines and contradictory beliefs.
Okay, what if I say, "There are two Fathers and two Gods"? My
Father and your Father
- two Fathers: mine and yours; otherwise
why wouldn't Jesus just say, "To our
Father" and "to our
God?" So His choice of "Mine and yours" instead of simply "our" shows
He is speaking of two completely different Fathers and Gods
, true? Simple and direct. There are two Fathers and two Gods.
Jesus says his Father is Father to the people as well, and also that his God is also the God of the people. I wish I could expand
on this further, but this simple statement speaks volumes for itself.
No, see, you're already wrong as I've shown. There are TWO Fathers and TWO Gods, there is no, "Jesus says his
Father is Father to the people
as well" at all- He is clearly saying there are TWO different Fathers: not "My Father who is also you Father" (else, why not just say, "our
Father") but "My Father and also to your Father
" two completely different Fathers.
When we have such resoundingly clear statements from Jesus, that he himself prayed to God
Resoundingly clear. It's always so resoundingly clear, isn't it? Look at this prayer:
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may
glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life
eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
You've probably read that and think to yourself, "Yes, this is one of the resoundingly clear passages where it is made simple and direct that Jesus
is not God because He is simply and clearly speaking to God in the third person. Simple." Ah, but look again. Because Jesus is not only "not God"
(as you have clearly and simply noted) but look again because Jesus (the one praying here) is not Jesus Christ
! Read the last verse again. He
doesn't pray "that they may know You the only true God, and Me, whom You have sent" He says, "and Jesus Christ"- clearly then the same simple
reasoning showing that Jesus is not God also shows that Jesus is not Jesus Christ as well? So this man praying must be some other Jesus other than the
Jesus known as "the Christ"; see?
Clear and simple. There are TWO Fathers and TWO Gods, and the Jesus praying in the garden is not
the "Jesus Christ" sent by one of the two
I don't believe that Jesus is God, not because I have something against Jesus
No, it's because you don't understand what the words "Father" and "God" are meant to convey. Simply put, what Jesus was saying here is this:
I have fulfilled the commandments of the Sinai covenant (my Father and your Father) and am now going to receive all of the POWER AND GLORY (my God and
your God) that come through that. I will presently be dispensing these things to those of you who fulfill the commandments of My covenant with you:
God = Truth
Father = Old Covenant
Son = New Covenant
Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
If Jesus is God or fully man/fully God, why didn't Jesus just say so. Its a pretty big deal don't you think?
What prevented him from doing such a thing?
He doesn't want everyone to know everything; and He's specifically concealing knowledge from pretty much about everyone in the world save a few. The
reason Jesus chose to say the things that He did in that way that He did was this:
Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.