"to my God and your God”

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Perfect and imperfect are words that you put upon things, events, people etc. They are judgements.
What is arising comes wordless and pure. Can you see it/hear it (the glory of god) without tainting it with your judgement?

So "God" is allowed to judge, those who spread his supposed words are allowed to judge, but I am not? I do not judge, I form conclusions based on logical process. The average Christian says 1+1 equals 2, but they fail to realize that 15+16 is 31. They only look at the surface, they don't read until there is no more to be read.

Your argument appears to be implying that I cannot form an opinion about scripture. In that case, how can I approve it? How can I say it's true? Any kind of affirmation or denial is a judgment. You are essentially telling me to ignore it.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Perfect and imperfect are words that you put upon things, events, people etc. They are judgements.
What is arising comes wordless and pure. Can you see it/hear it (the glory of god) without tainting it with your judgement?

So "God" is allowed to judge, those who spread his supposed words are allowed to judge, but I am not? I do not judge, I make conclusions based on logical discourse.

Your argument appears to be implying that I cannot form an opinion about scripture. In that case, how can I approve it? How can I say it's true? Any kind of affirmation or denial is a judgment. You are essentially telling me to ignore it.

God does not judge. It is man who is not satisfied. It is man who is suffering because he judges. Judge and thou shall be judged.
The words that humans use are the judge, the measurer.

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."
luke 6:37.

There isn't anything in history that says Allah is a differenmt God than the Lord.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Jesus is True God and True Man. BOTH. You've been told this many times.
And you've been shown MANY bible verses showing where Christians get this belief.

That can't be true. Christian doctrine has always shown the idea of "God" to be associated with utter and complete perfection. Man, as stated in the Bible, is an impure creature and about as far from perfection as one can get.

What you're suggesting is that Jesus was both perfect and imperfect. That's impossible. And I am not the least bit surprised that Christians have managed to entertain the possibility of this notion, given how far they are willing to go to ignore the facts. Harvard scholars have even admitted they will turn their backs on the evidence to support their religion.

Perfection and imperfection, as defined by Christianity, simply cannot coexist in the same form. By the way, would you please remind me what the rationalization was concerning the OP's discovery of Jesus distinguishing himself from this "God"? He appears to be making a valid point, but I'm interested in knowing both sides.

Man is made in the image of God, the image is made of light. The light that shines now here as presence is Gods glory - you are in it/of it, not separate from it.
The man then makes images of his own - he forms conclusions, he has ideas and forms beliefs. In these conclusions that he has formed he gets lost and confused, it keeps him busy with no rest.
He is seeking rest but he has concluded that 'it' is not here it must be somewhere else, somewhen else, so he seeks.
Only when the man finds (loses) himself back in the light of presence will he be home with the father. He will not be confused or lost - he will be found.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

The man then makes images of his own - he forms conclusions, he has ideas and forms beliefs. In these conclusions that he has formed he gets lost and confused, it keeps him busy with no rest.
He is seeking rest but he has concluded that 'it' is not here it must be somewhere else, somewhen else, so he seeks.
Only when the man finds (loses) himself back in the light of presence will he be home with the father. He will not be confused or lost - he will be found.

Yes, but how can we trust ourselves to know the difference? How can we trust ourselves to know when we have finally found the truth, when the most popular compass was designed by men with their own ideas of truth, which may have in themselves been incorrect?

Everything that tries to point me towards "God", in this day and age, was invented by man. Man, who has never shown himself capable of choosing the truth over the lie when everything he loves hangs on deceptions.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

Yes, but how can we trust ourselves to know the difference? How can we trust ourselves to know when we have finally found the truth, when the most popular compass was designed by men with their own ideas of truth, which may have in themselves been incorrect?

Everything that tries to point me towards "God", in this day and age, was invented by man. Man, who has never shown himself capable of choosing the truth over the lie when everything he loves hangs on deceptions.

You will know. You will not have to believe.
Thought made of words decieve. Only when the silence decends is it plainly obvious.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

You will know. You will not have to believe.
Thought made of words decieve. Only when the silence decends is it plainly obvious.

Interesting statement, considering every sentiment expressed on this website is expressed using words. So you're saying that every single thread is a deception?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

You will know. You will not have to believe.
Thought made of words decieve. Only when the silence decends is it plainly obvious.

Interesting statement, considering every sentiment expressed on this website is expressed using words. So you're saying that every single thread is a deception?

Words and labels are seen (and grow into stories) and if 'believed' lead to delusion.

Where and when and to whom do the words appear?

And prior to the appearance of the word there is....................

Peace.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Words and labels are seen (and grow into stories) and if 'believed' lead to delusion.

This can be said of nearly all religions. I don't deny the spirituality, but I believe that the common doctrines of Christianity have proven on many occasions to be detrimental to progress in enlightenment. I know, who am I to say, right? I'm no expert. But think of it this way: there are many potential pursuits by which a man or woman may chase perfection. Some, however, feature more trials for a certain kind of soul, more temptations, you could say. And so they inevitably fall, drawn by the traps hidden in the luminescent folds of spirit, mistaking self-preservation for righteous judgment, fighting the nature of the universe in a mistaken attempt to find their own brand of perfection. Who are we to know what a perfect being is? Like we've ever even been close to knowing a perfect being. How are we to know anything about perfection? You have to be satisfied for something to be perfect, and as the guardians of this earth, we are never satisfied! We always want more!

So how do we define a word like that? Use our personal imaginings of what perfection is like? That hardly suffices for fact. No wonder we're encouraged to rely on faith. Therefore, to use the word, we are describing an impossibility, which should say everything about it.

Not to mention the rather savage habit of destroying rivaling religions on a regular basis, absorbing the pieces and leaving its history in a bloody ruin of lies and deceptions. But that's okay - they are spreading the Word, the Truth! Ahaha, don't get me started on that! As I have just shown, words like 'perfect' and 'perfection' are used frivolously enough...and now they want to talk about truth. Is there really any truth these days? In something as appallingly potent as religion, do you really think no one has taken advantage of their power? Especially in Roman times, when security wasn't nearly so tight? It would have been all too easy...and judging by what I've seen from men with easy power, it's far too great a temptation for frail, greedy mortal man.

Words and labels are used to instill fear. It's like hypnosis, appealing through a very intricate science to the subconscious using sounds. And sometimes, religion takes full advantage of it. Not always, but sometimes.

Where and when and to whom do the words appear?

Can you explain that question a little more?

And prior to the appearance of the word there is....................

Uh...more words?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Can you see without words blinding you from the truth? The truth is hidden in plain sight, in the act of seeing without words.
Words mislead. It is not religion that misleads - it is belief in any 'thing' named.
Only the un-nameable is. Prior to words there is no 'thing'.

The naming of particular things.

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


The eternal Tao is Jesus on the cross. You know i am right.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Can you see without words blinding you from the truth? The truth is hidden in plain sight, in the act of seeing without words.

I use words to describe, to define, the things that are true in life. I use those words because I don't have better ones to transmit my thoughts.

Words mislead. It is not religion that misleads - it is belief in any 'thing' named.
Only the un-nameable is. Prior to words there is no 'thing'.

In that case, anyone who says anything to you is misleading you. Ideas are named, objects are named, people are named. Any idea that has a verbal identification tag has a name. If you can Google it to ANY extent, it has a name. According to you, there is no way to communicate purely honestly unless it's intimately, like telepathy. And since no religion is being explained today using that method, it's all deception. I disagree; just because words can be misleading, doesn't mean all ideas are misleading as well. If you look deep enough, you can see the truth in anything.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Which means the only immortality is the immortality we're not aware of? Because if it's unnameable, then it's unknowable. We would be unable to recall something that cannot be described in any tongue. It would fade with our memory, having nothing to attach itself to. Again, it seems to me that you accuse our entire reality of being a lie. I wouldn't be too inclined to disagree, but part of me hopes there's some truth. Otherwise, what's the point of living?

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

Not darkness. Light. Light, in which all colors combine. All kinds of light coalesces into one dazzling brilliance. Dark is the absence of light, of life, of everything that warms us inside. No, you speak of the light.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Prior to thought 'this' is.
'This' is divine and words 'can' decieve.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


So we can never truly know the divine? Then what's with Christianity and pretending to always know what "God" wants?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

So we can never truly know the divine? Then what's with Christianity and pretending to always know what "God" wants?

This, that is here presently, is all that can be known (there is no other). This is the light that shines (the illumination). The light shines in the dark. This is the enlightenment.

God does not want - wanting is mans disease.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Christians saying Jesus is our God really gets on your nerves doesn't it?

If Jesus is God, why did he state that his Father is our Father....and that his God is our God.
Tell me.

Jesus is the physical manifestation of the Father and not the first physical manifestation. Abraham was talking to him the day the Son destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, Sarah laughed at him when he told her she would concieve in her old age and then grew afraid when she realized what she had done. Moses saw him on Mt. Sinai when he asked God to show him his glory, that was the Son. You cannot see the Father he is Spirit, you can only see the Son, because only the Son can reveal the Father and this is how, he is the physical manifestation of the Father and that is how he is the Son, he was not begotten as we are. Joshua saw him in Joshua 5 as the commander of the heavenly host. Samson's mother and father also saw him, and Daniel did too.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I've heard Christians say Jesus is God. Here on ATS.
How is that an inaccurate statement?

It is an inaccurate statement (as I told you in the previous post) because it is incomplete. It is only half the truth.
The Christian teaching is that Christ is BOTH God and man.

Let me use an analogy.
The American flag is called "the Stars and Stripes" because it contains BOTH stars and stripes.
If someone started saying "I can see a stripe on the American flag, which proves there aren't any stars on it", anyone with an eye could see where he was going wrong.
All your threads are variants on the same fallacious argument.
Your line is "This verse shows that Jesus was a man, which proves the Christians wrong", and that line involves suppressing the fact that "Jesus was a man" is part and parcel of Christian teaching. You know what you're doing- I'm just pointing it out to everybody else.

Full god, Full man or half god,half man! its just theological acrobatic to solve the problems that arise due to the initial asumptions that he is god. There wouldnt be the need of this if it was accepted that he is man, a prophet of God, "his God and our God"
but him dying for everyone's sins demand for him to be more, a mere prophet, a mere man cant take all the sins.
While he never claimed any such thing, just asked us to worship his God and our God. Thats what the OP says.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
By the way, would you please remind me what the rationalization was concerning the OP's discovery of Jesus distinguishing himself from this "God"? He appears to be making a valid point, but I'm interested in knowing both sides.

I've dealt with this point a number of times, but I'll do it again.
Jesus distinguishes himself from God because he is a man.
The fact that Jesus is a man is one of the elements in the overall Christian teaching that Christ is both God and man.

What is that line at the bottom of the American flag?
Is it a stripe?
Does the fact that you can see a stripe prevent you from recognising stars on other parts of the flag?
That is why the American flag is called "the Stars and Stripes".
Similarly, recognising that Christ is Man is hardly an obstacle to recognising that Christ is both God and Man.

try and explain that by taking a square and a circle, how can a geometric shape be fully square and fully circle.

reply to post by FlyersFan


You are quoting a tradition of some Christian sects, but it has no basis in truth.
GOD is not a trinity.

Jesus never claimed to be GOD, but rather his son.

Holy Ghost is a medievel addition and slant to support the trinity belief rather than what it is really.
GOD's Holy Spirit is the activating force. It is HIS energy and how he gets things accomplished.
A ghost implies that GOD died, but of course GOD is immortal and has not died.
Jesus died for a time but, through GOD's Holy Spirit, Jesus was resurrected in demonstration of
GOD's power over death and that if HE so chooses that HE is capable of bringing someone back to
life.

Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by The_Phantom

 

I haven't once said that he isn't a god.

I never once said you did. My post was addressed to the OP. But since you mention it...

The bible is quite clear that Jesus is "Immanuel"(God with us). We can maneuver chapters and verses around all day long to make it say what we want it to say, but that doesn't change what is clearly written.

Immanuel does mean "with us is God" There is of course a verse where Christ says, "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”-Matthew 18:20 Meaning just what it says, he will be there with them...but although they could say 'with us is Christ,' that does not make them Christ. Likewise, although, with us is God, through Jesus presence, that does not make him the same being as the Father.
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