The orders that have been mentioned are orders in which women are allowed to join. You will often find that a husband and wife will join these orders and take office in them. The website Freemason Watch is not a good source to do further research as it is a website that hates Freemasonry and Freemasons with a unbalanced passion.

Gerard

Originally posted by Gerard
The orders that have been mentioned are orders in which women are allowed to join. You will often find that a husband and wife will join these orders and take office in them. The website Freemason Watch is not a good source to do further research as it is a website that hates Freemasonry and Freemasons with a unbalanced passion.

Gerard

Agreed.

Fremasonrywatch is one of the better known trash heaps on the internet.

Not only is it NOT considered credible, but its very purpose is to wage war against Masonry by any means necessary. The site's owners have already been in legal trouble, and the site is being monitored.

Thanks - not a lot of info on The White Shrine, lots of references to US Lodges but not a lot about the order, mind you that is typical of Masonic organisations.
Seems rather at odds by insisting on Christian beliefs and at the same time being affiliated with Freemasonry, definitely something afoot there.

The Amaranth degree is apparently a chivalric degree, normally in Masonic terms this means Knights Templar based, that would explain its high stature in the diagram.

Both societies are open to wives of Master Masons although they are a privileged entry (i.e. you can't just ask to join.)

They do appear to still be high lodges of the Order Eastern Star...interesting stuff really when you see that White Shrine is almost on par with the 32nd degree of the Scottish Rite in the diagramme.
These groups are exclusively women no?

Is the White Shrine a sister sect for the Shriners?

[edit on 22-10-2004 by MrNECROS]

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Thanks - not a lot of info on The White Shrine, lots of references to US Lodges but not a lot about the order, mind you that is typical of Masonic organisations.

I just did a quick "Google' search and that's what turned up. There may be more informative sites out there. I'm not sure what you think is so "typical of Masonic organizations" There is literally TONS of Masonic info out there and from legitimate Masonic organizations, not Anti-Masons.

Seems rather at odds by insisting on Christian beliefs and at the same time being affiliated with Freemasonry, definitely something afoot there.

The Order of Knights Templar is in that same boat, and honestly causes some ill-feelings from non-Christians Masons.

The Amaranth degree is apparently a chivalric degree, normally in Masonic terms this means Knights Templar based, that would explain its high stature in the diagram.

That diagram is merely to give some an idea of the various degrees of Masonry. The Order of the Amaranth (White Shrine of Jerusalem, etc.) are not "Masonic bodies" like the Symbolic (or Craft) Lodge, the York Rite, Scottish Rite, etc. They simply restrict their membership to Master Masons and their close female relatives. i.e. Amaranth has no "stature", high or otherwise as a Masonic organization.

Both societies are open to wives of Master Masons although they are a privileged entry (i.e. you can't just ask to join.)

Not just wives. Close female relatives OF Masters Masons. OES has extended this to include even step-daughters, neices, etc. so "close" is literally a "relative" thing. Oh, AND Master Masons. Men can (and do) belong as well. It's a co-ed type organization. Much like the Odd Fellows has now become.

They do appear to still be high lodges of the Order Eastern Star...

No. There is NO requirement that Amaranth or White Shrine members be members of OES. This WAS once required, but was dropped many years ago.

interesting stuff really when you see that White Shrine is almost on par with the 32nd degree of the Scottish Rite in the diagramme.

Again, the diagram has nothing to do with "rank" etc. The White Shrine consists (again) of Master Masons (that's 3rd Degree) and their close female relatives. They have a nicely written and impressive ritual (as does the Amaranth)

These groups are exclusively women no?

No. See above.

Is the White Shrine a sister sect for the Shriners?

No. Coincidence that the name "Shrine" is used in their organization too. There is, however, the Ladies Oriental Shrine of North America as well as the Daughters of the Nile. Neither are officially part of the Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine (Shriners) but do function in some areas of the country as a sort of "ladies auxiliary" (my own words...not from any official web-site of either organization.

Regards



[edit on 22-10-2004 by MrNECROS]

Actually many of the websites for White Shrine Lodges state that you have to be an existing member of Order Eastern Star.
Also interestingly Ameranth has a single governing world body.
I found it's website to be highly self contradicory on most matters to the point where I couldn't really make any assumptions as to how, what or why it is structured the way it is.
Unfortunatally there is very little else on the web about both groups.

There is quite a bit more I'd like to discuss but I'm already getting the usual hot air about nothing responses and there aren't any knowlegable people on this subject here - I've seen these links before on the web but there isn't a lot of cohesive material one way or the other.

Senrak - Strange you bring the subject of "rank" into the discussion, it's not been mentioned until you brought it up, the diagram displays the relation of the degrees in reference to "The Compass" and "The Square" which is what I'm actually looking into.
Most Female Masonic bodies are highly constrained to "The Square" both of these appear to be on par with the higher degrees, 25th and 32nd to be precise.
These bodies also contain men, which does make for some rather sinister possibilities as to who "really" runs the organisation but this is nothing more than conjecture given the complete lack of any tangible substance.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Actually many of the websites for White Shrine Lodges state that you have to be an existing member of Order Eastern Star.
Also interestingly Ameranth has a single governing world body.
I found it's website to be highly self contradicory on most matters to the point where I couldn't really make any assumptions as to how, what or why it is structured the way it is.
Unfortunatally there is very little else on the web about both groups.

Well, as long as you are pontificating on the subject, how about sharing some FACTS to support your assertions, like, for instance, what those self contradictory matters are? Base assertions with no facts are worthless.

As for making assumptions, why not just ask, instead of making a fool out of yourself again, by guessing?

There is quite a bit more I'd like to discuss but I'm already getting the usual hot air about nothing responses and there aren't any knowlegable people on this subject here - I've seen these links before on the web but there isn't a lot of cohesive material one way or the other.

Well, don't let that stop you (nevere has in the past) and share with the class what those issues are you'd like to discuss. You see, what I have observed of you over time is that you come in, toss out a couple of verbal hand grenades, and then run away while more knowledgable folks explain and answser your objections. Then you come back in, note that the answers are hot air, and that you would really like to discuss it, but... and then run away again.

Do you seriously think you are convincing anyone of anything?

Stand and deliver, or be shown for the craven you really are. The purpose of this forum is to DENY IGNORANCE, not spread it. So either put up, or take that bag of fertilzer somewhere else... like FW, which is the biggest compost heap on the internet.

Senrak - Strange you bring the subject of "rank" into the discussion, it's not been mentioned until you brought it up, the diagram displays the relation of the degrees in reference to "The Compass" and "The Square" which is what I'm actually looking into.

good for you. While you are at it, you might consider that it is a visual representation, not a marker of rank, which is what YOU implied in your first post regarding amaranth, which is why Senrak responde as he did... you might want to reread your own posts before you make yourself look even more foolish...

Most Female Masonic bodies are highly constrained to "The Square" both of these appear to be on par with the higher degrees, 25th and 32nd to be precise.

Really??? Do tell... and by what process did you arrive at this conclusion, being, as it were, that we are masons and know what the organization is about, and you are an outsider, with barely a clue about what the first three degrees are about. There is no correlation, since there is no rank involved. Perhaps it would be easier for you to understand if you simply removed the degree numbers?

There is no higher "rank" than Third Degree Master Mason. These OTHER degrees are just that, additional information for the Master Mason, but not HIGHER. My Senior Deacon is a 32 degree Scottish Rite, but he has no authority or power above that of any Master Mason in my lodge, or any lodge, for that matter.

The past master of one of my lodges is a 33 degree Scottish Rite, yet in his own words, sitting as master of the lodge was a higher honor (note the word, HONOR) than was conferred on him when he received his 33rd degree. There are NO HIGHER OR LOWER RANKS. No matter how often you write it, it will not change the facts.

These bodies also contain men, which does make for some rather sinister possibilities as to who "really" runs the organisation

Ha, you have GOT to be kidding... or just confused. You are obviously not in any of these organizations, and it is clear reading this that you are totally clueless. Read what Senrak wrote.. he is giving you the straight skinny.

...but this is nothing more than conjecture given the complete lack of any tangible substance.

Now this is the FIRST thing you have written that makes sense... you have no tangible substance on which to write, and everything you have written about Amaranth, White Shrine, Masonry, Rosicrucians, Templars etc are just the product of, lets all say it together folks, IGNORANCE.

What is your problem? I mean, aside from not taking your meds...

Talking about hot air....
Unfortunatally this thread is going nowhere - shame Gadfly isn't about anymore, I learnt more from the half dozen emails to him than 4 months of posting in this forum.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Talking about hot air....
Unfortunatally this thread is going nowhere - shame Gadfly isn't about anymore, I learnt more from the half dozen emails to him than 4 months of posting in this forum.

Gadfly was not a Mason. Therefore he could teach you nothing.

Unless of course, you like learning from someone with the research abilities of a 10-year old.


[edit on 25-10-2004 by LTD602]

LTD - GadFly was a Mason.
He is now a Christian.
Do you still stand by your previous statement about him not knowing anything about Freemasonry?

Originally posted by MrNECROS
LTD - GadFly was a Mason.
He is now a Christian.
Do you still stand by your previous statement about him not knowing anything about Freemasonry?

Actually, he was NOT a mason... he was a member of a somewhat smaller, and very much stranger group.

He is about as much a mason as YOU...

But, really, thanks for playing.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Senrak - Strange you bring the subject of "rank" into the discussion, it's not been mentioned until you brought it up, the diagram displays the relation of the degrees in reference to "The Compass" and "The Square" which is what I'm actually looking into.
Most Female Masonic bodies are highly constrained to "The Square" both of these appear to be on par with the higher degrees, 25th and 32nd to be precise.
These bodies also contain men, which does make for some rather sinister possibilities as to who "really" runs the organisation but this is nothing more than conjecture given the complete lack of any tangible substance.

I think Theron explained it quite well. I don't know why you're so hung up on "rank"

Originally posted by MrNECROS
LTD - GadFly was a Mason.
He is now a Christian.
Do you still stand by your previous statement about him not knowing anything about Freemasonry?

Yes. I do.

Even if he was a Mason, for arguments sake, and he left, he COULD HAVE NO OTHER COMPLAINT than to say, "hey fellas, thanks for everything, but masonry isn't really compatible with my faith." And that would be the end of it. There is nothing else in Masonry that could cause him to be so slanderous and so soilicitous of the ire of the Masons on this board. I think Gadfly's biggest problem was . . . . . . Gadfly.

Originally posted by LTD602
Fremasonrywatch is one of the better known trash heaps on the internet.

Not only is it NOT considered credible, but its very purpose is to wage war against Masonry by any means necessary. The site's owners have already been in legal trouble, and the site is being monitored.

EXACTLY what does this mean?

Is this some MORE cyber-stalking by the Mason Defender brigade?

You know the guys, they also inhabit ATS- they stalk any site that has a viewpoint that is not pro-masonry and try to get the ISP to nuke the site and publish addresses and phone numbers.

I downloaded Mason Defender threads (scream theron) showing all the interactions. Even calling the FBI on to someone- real 'free speech'

This denies what?

Freemasonrywatch, among other things, was guilty of violating ISP Terms of Service. Ask Theron, if you wish.

FW is a hate site. That simple.

[edit on 26-10-2004 by LTD602]

LTD seriously - what makes you think Theron would know anything about this at all?
Unless he was one of the low-lifes who tried to nobble the site in its early days why would he know anything about it?
The reason "Morgan" moved the site is because his old ISP was unable to prevent the DDOS attacks that were soaking up his bandwidth and also because they allowed someone to BS their way into the server room and walk off with his server once.
Since he moved to 50Megs he hasn't been off air once.
There is no "Hate Material" on the site, he had some dodgy lawyer try to prosecute the site for "Hate Crimes" but it never went to trial because there was no case to answer.
There is no hate material on the site - maybe you should actually have a look at it.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
LTD seriously - what makes you think Theron would know anything about this at all?
Unless he was one of the low-lifes who tried to nobble the site in its early days why would he know anything about it?
The reason "Morgan" moved the site is because his old ISP was unable to prevent the DDOS attacks that were soaking up his bandwidth and also because they allowed someone to BS their way into the server room and walk off with his server once.
Since he moved to 50Megs he hasn't been off air once.
There is no "Hate Material" on the site, he had some dodgy lawyer try to prosecute the site for "Hate Crimes" but it never went to trial because there was no case to answer.
There is no hate material on the site - maybe you should actually have a look at it.

I've read it Necros, and AS a licensed lawyer, and Freemason, I can tell you that if we ever decided to lift the "veil of secrecy" over our ritual and signs of recognition, we would have a very successful case for libel against "Morgan" for what he has posted on his site. But you know what,... just because sites like his exist, more people become curious about what we really are about... It's as if Broccoli was a controlled substance. Teenager would be eating plenty of it, and sayin how cool it was...

But back to "Morgan," he's a hate-monger, plain and simple.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Originally posted by LTD602
Fremasonrywatch is one of the better known trash heaps on the internet.

Not only is it NOT considered credible, but its very purpose is to wage war against Masonry by any means necessary. The site's owners have already been in legal trouble, and the site is being monitored.

EXACTLY what does this mean?

Is this some MORE cyber-stalking by the Mason Defender brigade?

You know the guys, they also inhabit ATS- they stalk any site that has a viewpoint that is not pro-masonry and try to get the ISP to nuke the site and publish addresses and phone numbers.

I downloaded Mason Defender threads (scream theron) showing all the interactions. Even calling the FBI on to someone- real 'free speech'

This denies what?

You BET I called the FBI, and filed complaints based on the internet harrassment of one individual. I filed complaints with the CHAT/DISCUSSION hosting services that FW abused, and had SIX of their chatrooms taken offline by the hosts for clear violations of the TOS of those services.

I do not care what trash they post or discuss on those sites, FW is, as LTD noted, the cesspool and trash heap of the internet, but when they violate the law and the TOS of their hosts, they pay the penalty. All they have to do is obey the rules of the forums they set up...

Slander, defamation, copyright violations, impersonations, Spyware, etc are violations of the TOS. Try is HERE and see what happens... your posts will be locked or deleted and your access cut off. Well, FW tried it, and I, as is my right under the constitution and the law, exercised my right to complain...

ALL of us that were being abused illegally, complained, and guess what, the admin folks shut them down. Am I proud to have been a part of it? YOU BET! You take a swing at me and I will not waste time getting even.

You have a difference of opinion? Fine, knock yourself out. I exposed the host of the original FW site, a nice woman just outside of Dallas Texas and her fundy evangelical David Icke operation. She didn't like it, and kicked FW off her servers... even an Icke Accolyte didn't want to be PUBLICALLY associated with that vile pit of frauds.

Nothing I have done is illegal, immoral or fattening. If you want to attack me or masonry, go for it. I have no problem with opinions, but stand ready to be called to task if you try to hack my system, send my viruses, send spyware, impersonate me, post things in MY NAME that I would never in a milliion years write or say, use my likeness illegally etc etc.

This is not a threat, I am simply acknowledging that I was a key player, along with many of my brothers, in making the nasty little children at FW pay for harrassing me. I am not ashamed, I am PROUD.

Free speech is an essentially American right... Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech... first amendment... but with freedom comes RESPONSIBILITY. The folks at FW thought they could attack me willy nilly without repercussion... guess what? They were wrong.