The Anti Perpetual Motion Conspiracy

reply to post by boncho


I believe it is you that are mistaken, for every single person that I would like to do "X" because it hasn't been done and sounds like a good idea, there have been scores that said it was "impossible. History speaks volumes about this.

Are you. Really goikng to say nobody said, heavier than air flight is impossible? We both know that sint true, and back then, just like today, there was the old guard always saying they "know everything" and that would have been done if it was possible, believeing in their arrogance they were the most educated, thus knew everything.

It is what bumanity does, it is seen each and everyday, all over the world, in every coulture in history, people don't change, only the times.

Also, "free" energy, "perpetual motion" are real, just because we can't do them yet, doesn't make them "impossible". We will one day learn to harnass all these things, as we do every other thing man imagines. It all always comes to fruition at some point, or haven't you read Jules Verne? All the things he wrote about were "impossible" in his time, they all occured.

I can get as much free energy as I want from the universe, as long as I give it back, it doesn't matter if it is millions billions or even trilions of years later. As long as it is given back by the end of time itself, the equation equals zero, there is no loss or gain, there is only equalibrium.

It is fully within the laws of thermodynamics to only put in 1 calorie of energy and extract 6000 calories of energy, as long as by the time the equation ends I give 5999 calories of energy back. It still equalls 0. It is the basis of math.

I can add 1+1=2 and subtract 9million at any point before or after either 1 ant any point as long as before the =2 I give them back.

It doesn't matter if I make the problem as follows: 1+1-16-20-100-9000-90000 a billion years go by+16+20+100+9000+90000=2

Your assumption that it is "impossible" to take energy that isn't put in is flat out disproved with elementary level math, time period doesn't matter, energy taken doesn't matter, as long as it is given back.

I could for example with the right technology take 8 gallons of gasoline out of the "empty" vacuum, and use it as I like, over any time period, as long as the same amount of energy is given back to the vacuum at some point, be it all at once, or spread over the rest of time.

All that matters is that in the end, before the = it is given back in full.

This is the basis, of zero point energy, and the basis of the bigbang theory. All the universe sprang forth from the empty voids probablity, and has existed for billions of years, there is no problem, as long as by the time the universe ends, it all goes back to the void, and the equation =0

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by boncho

 

Your definition of perpetual motion relies on a premise science does not acknowledge i.e "forever" there for your whole argument is fallacious and not even based on science since it relies on an unscientific term.

What the hell are you talking about?

Ok guys I tire of this conversation, unless someone has anything else besides symantics to discuss.

Boncho obviously has his mind made up, and will simply drone on and on, repeating the same things " perpetual means forever, even longer than the universe, and absolutley nothing else ever" dispite the fact it is quite an absurd position. " 1+1=2 and it is against the laws of thermodynamics for anything to happen anywhere between the 1+1 and the =2" even though zero point theory was written within the laws of thermodynamics, and the simplest kindergarten level math disagrees with him.

Just leave him to it, or keep beating your head against the wall, I wash my hands of this madness.

Good evening Gentlemen.

reply to post by inverslyproportional

Are you. Really goikng to say nobody said, heavier than air flight is impossible?

People say Nibiru is coming, and other believe unicorns are real... I really don't get your point though. One person's opinion does not reflect everyone in a certain field.

1. For everyone that said flight was impossible there were others saying it was, and actively researching it.

The 1880s became a period of intense study, characterized by the "gentleman scientists" who represented most research efforts until the 20th century. Starting in the 1880s advances were made in construction that led to the first truly practical gliders. Three people in particular were active: Otto Lilienthal, Percy Pilcher and Octave Chanute. One of the first modern gliders appears to have been built by John J. Montgomery; it flew one flight outside of San Diego on August 28, 1883. It was not until many years later that his efforts became well known. Another hang-glider had been constructed by Wilhelm Kress as early as 1877 near Vienna.

en.wikipedia.org...

Also, "free" energy, "perpetual motion" are real, just because we can't do them yet, doesn't make them "impossible". We will one day learn to harnass all these things, as we do every other thing man imagines. It all always comes to fruition at some point, or haven't you read Jules Verne? All the things he wrote about were "impossible" in his time, they all occured.

Completely different. In any case perpetual motion machines are impossible. I already pointed it out in another post. Jules Verne had some great ideas, and some weren't possible at the time, not because they violated the laws of physics however, but because the tools needed to achieve them were not invented yet. Very different examples.

It is fully within the laws of thermodynamics to only put in 1 calorie of energy and extract 6000 calories of energy, as long as by the time the equation ends I give 5999 calories of energy back. It still equalls 0. It is the basis of math.

I can add 1+1=2 and subtract 9million at any point before or after either 1 ant any point as long as before the =2 I give them back.

Okay so boil me 1000 liters of water with a single match. Oh, can't do it? Yeah, math sucks sometimes.

This is the basis, of zero point energy, and the basis of the bigbang theory.

No it's not. You read the article I posted and got yourself confused. What exactly were you hoping to get from a ground state?

reply to post by inverslyproportional

Boncho obviously has his mind made up, and will simply drone on and on, repeating the same things " perpetual means forever, even longer than the universe, and absolutley nothing else ever"

Perpetual motion in a thought exercise like Schrodinger's cat is fine. Cross section the vacuum of space/time and and object moving through it under the laws of inertia (with no resistance) is in a state of perpetual motion. Remove the cross section and eventually something is going to happen to it. But what's the point?

The OP was about perpetual motion machines regardless of the title of the thread (judging by the body of the text) and you guys just bounce all over the place arguing different things confusing every argument you have. It's like watching kids open toys on christmas.

Everything is energy. After all, E=mc^2, right? Matter and energy are of the same essence.

Also, it is all free. It just happens that some guys with big sticks would like to charge you for it.

reply to post by boncho


I will. Reply one last time, because after my trip to the bath room I see that you responded, and I consider it quite rude to walk away from people.

It is perfectly within the laws of thermodynamics to do just that, here is how.

I take 1 litter of water, and don't strike the match at all. I instead use probablility to create heat out of raw potential, and boil the water. as the water cools, and evaporates taking the heat away with it, it returns from whence it came. No energy was lost, as none was gained, the laws of thermodynamics are preserved, and your water was boiled.

Or do you believe particles don't just "pop in and out of existance"? Because I assure you that they do all time everyday in all of space/time.

Please don't try to say I don't know what I am talking about, as I assure you, every single quantum physicist in the world will agree with me. It is quite possible, and it is perfectly within the laws of thermodynamics.

This is the root of the bigbang theory"which is within the laws of thermodynamcis" and the zero point energy theory, which is also within the laws of thermodynamics.

Matter of fact, your pot of water appearing and bioling itself then just evaporating back to the void is perfectly probable, it may even have happened at some point someplace already, it could even happen right now in front of you, it has a very low probablility, but it is still quite possible.

reply to post by boncho


OIC, I am not altogether in any corner here, I am not saying that right now, there are machines built that can create free energy out of motion caused by finite power sources, as this is not what I speak of.

I am talking about "free energy" and the process of using it before it is given back, I don't know if anyone will ever make a "perpetual motion machine"

I am saying zero point energy is perfectly possible, and ptoentially usable in the modern or near future.

It appears I clicked the wrong thread, on my perscribed threads list.


I believe we are both having a different conversation, thus our headbutting.

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by boncho

 

I will. Reply one last time, because after my trip to the bath room I see that you responded, and I consider it quite rude to walk away from people.

It is perfectly within the laws of thermodynamics to do just that, here is how.

I take 1 litter of water, and don't strike the match at all. I instead use probablility to create heat out of raw potential, and boil the water. as the water cools, and evaporates taking the heat away with it, it returns from whence it came. No energy was lost, as none was gained, the laws of thermodynamics are preserved, and your water was boiled.

Or do you believe particles don't just "pop in and out of existance"? Because I assure you that they do all time everyday in all of space/time.

Please don't try to say I don't know what I am talking about, as I assure you, every single quantum physicist in the world will agree with me. It is quite possible, and it is perfectly within the laws of thermodynamics.

This is the root of the bigbang theory"which is within the laws of thermodynamcis" and the zero point energy theory, which is also within the laws of thermodynamics.

Matter of fact, your pot of water appearing and bioling itself then just evaporating back to the void is perfectly probable, it may even have happened at some point someplace already, it could even happen right now in front of you, it has a very low probablility, but it is still quite possible.

physicist would also tell you it's possible for all the gold in the biggest bank vault in the world to suddenly appear in your living room, but the odds are beyond astronomical so i wouldn't rely on it happening to pay your bills

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
Ok guys I tire of this conversation, unless someone has anything else besides symantics to discuss.

Boncho obviously has his mind made up, and will simply drone on and on, repeating the same things " perpetual means forever, even longer than the universe, and absolutley nothing else ever" dispite the fact it is quite an absurd position. " 1+1=2 and it is against the laws of thermodynamics for anything to happen anywhere between the 1+1 and the =2" even though zero point theory was written within the laws of thermodynamics, and the simplest kindergarten level math disagrees with him.

Just leave him to it, or keep beating your head against the wall, I wash my hands of this madness.

Good evening Gentlemen.

Isn't amazing how far people will go to try and justify their cultist beliefs in their own mind no matter how irrational they are... Its an ego massage so they can feel like they know something reason and logic be damned...

Originally posted by ken10
Haha, here we go again.

Soooo, The Moon rotates around the Earth, The Earth rotates around the Sun, The Sun is constantly moving within its solar system, The Solar system is moving around within its Galaxy, All the Galaxies are moving around the universe, AND the Universe is expanding at an increasing rate.......With no evidence of entropy or boundaries !!!.

BUT.......In a universe where NOTHING is stationary, Perpetual motion is impossible.....Riiiiiight.

What's your point? Pretty sure the subject is perpetual motion taking place on a terrestrial level, in which the perpetual motion device is capable of overcoming resistance and creating energy that can be harnessed.

When you come up with that device, let us know, bet you'll get a lot of stars and flags - not to mention be more famous than Einstein

Originally posted by hawkiye


Isn't amazing how far people will go to try and justify their cultist beliefs in their own mind no matter how irrational they are... Its an ego massage so they can feel like they know something reason and logic be damned...

So since it is possible, I'll ask to see what energy you're able to harness from your perpetual motion device.

reply to post by hawkiye

Isn't amazing how far people will go to try and justify their cultist beliefs in their own mind no matter how irrational they are... Its an ego massage so they can feel like they know something reason and logic be damned...

In which way am I being irrational? And what exactly are you looking to discuss. You link in the OP perpetual motion machines, but than you talk about electrons.

Here's a video to help you understand how that works too.

I already posted earlier about calling electrons "perpetually" moving. But you really need to clarify what you want to discuss.

Is this about perpetual motion machines or not?

Originally posted by Hawking

Originally posted by hawkiye


Isn't amazing how far people will go to try and justify their cultist beliefs in their own mind no matter how irrational they are... Its an ego massage so they can feel like they know something reason and logic be damned...

So since it is possible, I'll ask to see what energy you're able to harness from your perpetual motion device.

The table is set all you have to do is sit down at it and taste the food to see if you like it. Sorry no breakfast in bed for the lazy...

It's funny if I had said you have won the lottery but you need to come and fill out the paper work to get your check most would probably be willing to drive a hundred miles or more if necessary to do it but they can't even spend a few hours reading to see if there might be anything to these devices they could build for free energy.

Sorry the big box stores don't have it on the shelf for you and you'd have to put out a little effort but that is the price the lazy are unwilling to pay it seems...

reply to post by hawkiye

It's funny if I had said you have won the lottery but you need to come and fill out the paper work to get your check most would probably be willing to drive a hundred miles or more if necessary to do it but they can't even spend a few hours reading to see if there might be anything to these devices they could build for free energy.

What's funny about this statement is that there is an old scam where someone calls up a mark, tells them they won the lottery and they just have to pay administration fees to get their millions in winnings. The scammers get about a $1000.00 from most people. Times that by a thousand people and they did okay for themselves.

The free energy scammers have a similar one selling DIY kits online, which is just shy of being outright fraud cause once it's realized the machines don't work, they blame the builder.

Not surprising you used that as your example.

Originally posted by XPLodER

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by XPLodER

 

i could go on but conservation of energy laws are sacred to science, and to challenge them pits you against some of the great minds of times past.

it also gets you labelled as a crack pot

Neither I nor the sources I cite are challenging the laws of conservation...

i agree, but i am,

before the idea can even be addressed by "scientists" the conservation of energy laws pop up in their brain and any thing after that is tainted by the belief that these laws are fixed and nothing could possibly shake their perfect understanding of how energy systems operate.

that is until you ask them "where did the energy come from in the first instance" ?

at which point they will answer "the big bang"

i think a scientist would answer 'we don't know where the energy came from'

people often think that scientist think they 'know it all', but the job of a scientist is to make new discoveries (an implicit acknowledgement of unknowns) using scientific methodology - a methodology that has proven to be very effective in my opinion

i think you are confusing a scientist with a science teacher - you'll know when they think they know it all because there wont be any scientists - just science teachers

reply to post by hawkiye


instead of bleating about your alledged " anti perpetual motion conspiracy " - here is an idea - show us a device that actually works

reply to post by hawkiye


No what I'm saying is it's not possible...


Since you believe it is, why don't you show us your perpetual motion device??


Come on, it's so simple, anyone can do it! Where is it?

reply to post by hawkiye


Since you're so convinced you're smarter than modern science, prove it.

There's no reason for any of us to prove anything, this is YOUR argument

So let me get this straight. Free energy devices are real its the naysayers definition of a free energy device that is wrong which is why they (and every physicist on the planet) are wrong.

Well that makes sense!!!

Fact:

1. The amount of money that an oil company could make from a free eneregy device by licensing the technology in every car on an annual basis would dwarf the oil revenues.

If you don't believe me then you are thinking straight. There is more than one oil company and the unit price made by the oil componay is significantly lower than the unit price paid by the consumer. So oil revenues are spread. around.

So one oil company could corner the market and license its device to every car manufacturer, ever boiler manufacturer, every cooker manufacturer, very heater manufacturer in every country on the whole planet.

2. There is no way in hell that countries like China are quaking in their boots at the threat from the big bad US oil companies or the US military and thus don't build their own devices. China needs energy and you can be damned sure if there was a working device they would build one.

3. Hasn't anyone ever heard of a thing called the Internet? Let me explain its a world wide web of interconnected computers. You can publish information on the web (that's it's nickname) and it will spread around the globe quite literally in an instant. This means anyone who has a working device can publish the plan of said device on the web for everyone to read and there is nothing the oil companies or evil US secret agents can do about it. Quite clearly those who believe in free energy believe humanity is being deprived therefore the motivation for distributing the information freely is altruistic. However, on the other side of the coin. The first person to truly build such a device and publish how will still make a considerable amount of money. The book of the project alone will sell for millions. The film of the book which can start with a prelude showing car crashes of the preceding inventors assassinated by the evil oil cartel and the inventor rushing to an internet cafe to distribute the info........hang on sorry that reminds of another film!!

There is a glimmer of hope for the "free energy" movement and that is if a device can somehow tap into the quantum fluctuations of the vacuum, casimir effect etc. But again nobody has done this yet. There was a recent announcement that some physicists had managed to get some work ouf of the casimir effect but it was soooooooo small that it might still prove to be an experimental error as was the faster than light particles reported by CERN.

Of course there is always the as yet unknown to science effect but I'm afraid all free energy devices to date are rooted well and truly in the area of tried and tested known physics. The problem is people who quite clealry do not understand the current laws of physics (and always need to have a battery somewhere !!!). The vacuum hole through the earth thread last week, wow jaw dropper!