No Mr. Romney, Rich People Do Not Create Jobs

reply to post by Jeremiah65


So the "victim" the entitlement-minded, is now the hero?

Please elaborate.

reply to post by colin42


If companies raised wages to compensate for inflation, the wealth distribution problem wouldn't be nearly as bad as it is.

Look, lets go back to my McDonald's analogy. If my stores were down 15%, I'm not going to build another. I'd gladly pay more taxes to pump money into my consumer base, and ultimatley sell more cheeseburgers.

I'd wager that the net profit from doing this would offset the higher taxes I was paying. Even if the taxes I paid broke even with the new profits I was making, I'd feel better knowing I opened additional McDonald's, created jobs, and help bolster the economy as a whole.

reply to post by beezzer


Who said I was singling you out? Both sides of the two party paradigm are delusional. I'm going to cast my protest vote again this year and sleep well...I refuse to vote for insanity.

Entitlements? I never mentioned entitlements...I was pointing out who creates jobs and what the current problem is. Actually...the current problem is really-really deep.

We as Americans have lost our ingenuity and creative edge...for whatever reason. Poor education, stolen trade secrets (corporate espionage) being sold to our international competitors...companies looking to save a buck and "giving" that info to our competitors....who knows. All I know is we have let the genie out of the bottle and he ain't going back in.

The solution...we need to build better mouse traps again. There was a time we took pride in the products we made and sold...everyone in the world wanted "our stuff"...now...nope.

I am all for free enterprise...but...I have an achilles heel. I am an American...I am a Patriot. I would rather see companies make a dollar less and make America great again rather than sending the production to slave based countries like China and India. I however am a minority. Most people "just want theirs now" and could give a crap less about the country...and I mean nearly all...but not all.

reply to post by MystikMushroom


Franchise owners work with very narrow margins. They don't have surplus cash that you imagine. But keep on trying to take "more".

Originally posted by Jeremiah65


We as Americans have lost our ingenuity and creative edge...for whatever reason. Poor education, stolen trade secrets (corporate espionage) being sold to our international competitors...companies looking to save a buck and "giving" that info to our competitors....who knows. All I know is we have let the genie out of the bottle and he ain't going back in.

If I could focus on this aspect.

We.

We need to ignore political pandering on both sides and focus on what "WE" need to do. Personl responsibility, again. I keep bringing it up for a reason.

reply to post by beezzer


The rich have been stealing from their own consumer base for years.

reply to post by beezzer


If you are talking about the entitlement-minded that pay less percentage wise than the rest of us or hide their money in off shore accounts then I agree with you. If you are talking about people like myself that have served overseas in the military while struggling to feed my family back in the states then I dissagre.

I have seen millions handed out to our enemies to buy their loyalty (it doesn’t work) while my wife was back in the states barley making ends meet even with my pay and her working full time. The rich are the ones who act like they are entitled to play buy a different set of rules.

The OP is just starting a fact that trickle down does not work and hurts the country. We are slowly getting out of this mess and one political party wants to return to the same policies that caused this mess. This should be about what works for the country and not about what helps the rich get richer.

Originally posted by MystikMushroom
reply to post by beezzer

 

The rich have been stealing from their own consumer base for years.

So that justifies stealing from them?

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by beezzer

 

If you are talking about the entitlement-minded that pay less percentage wise than the rest of us or hide their money in off shore accounts then I agree with you. If you are talking about people like myself that have served overseas in the military while struggling to feed my family back in the states then I dissagre.

I'm currently serving overseas. I know all the pains involved.

I have seen millions handed out to our enemies to buy their loyalty (it doesn’t work) while my wife was back in the states barley making ends meet even with my pay and her working full time. The rich are the ones who act like they are entitled to play buy a different set of rules.

Who bloody cares? I care about if my family is housed and fed. Really, this obsession with how much someone else has is ridiculous!

The OP is just starting a fact that trickle down does not work and hurts the country. We are slowly getting out of this mess and one political party wants to return to the same policies that caused this mess. This should be about what works for the country and not about what helps the rich get richer.

It does work, when government is not stepping into the picture. As a vet, you'd have to agree that government involvement is not a good thing.

reply to post by MystikMushroom


Wow ! Six whole hours ! Uumm... You are kidding,, right ?
Yes ! When the wealthy have more money to spend ( by being taxed less, and the removal of capital gains, and many other ways to help the earner keep more of His or Her money) it does create jobs .
It is not complicated. Since we are moving on to the third session of your three hour classes, pay attention.
When Mr. Evil Rich Man retains more of the money that he earns, he thenspends more money on maintaining his property.This is where I come in ( and many other people) and paint his home ,or business, or rental property etc.
Then I in turn have a job along with those that I employ.
See ? I told you it is not that hard of a class.
This is a proven time tested concept.It is not a naive and wishful belief .
Dismissed .

Look,

I suppose part of the problem is that we are being "sold" a quality and standard of life in our media that is not compatible with the wages we are earning.

For years we have grown used to "having nice things" -- well, as inflation increased and cost of living increased, our paychecks didn't always follow suit.

So now we are making less, some of us without jobs -- but we still want that shiny new iPhone.

The blame goes all around. Demand for a quality/standard of living comes first from the people. Advertisers and media moguls only present what we want to see.

I admit, perhaps using a franchise operation wasn't the best analogy. Not that it matters, but in my town, the McDonald's are all owned (with the exception of two) by Corporate HQ.

Our family friend owns a very large private retail store. I think it used to be an old big-box store. She's actually thinking of downsizing her space, because people can't afford her products/services anymore. This dosen't just hurt her bottom line, but also the people she might have to lay off. And yes, she is a "millionaire".

Look, we're all partially to blame. The poor for being "poor" and the elites for driving the income gap to larger proportions. Personal responsiblity is a great idea, but we're way past that turning point now.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by Jeremiah65


We as Americans have lost our ingenuity and creative edge...for whatever reason. Poor education, stolen trade secrets (corporate espionage) being sold to our international competitors...companies looking to save a buck and "giving" that info to our competitors....who knows. All I know is we have let the genie out of the bottle and he ain't going back in.

If I could focus on this aspect.

We.

We need to ignore political pandering on both sides and focus on what "WE" need to do. Personal responsibility, again. I keep bringing it up for a reason.

I can agree with that. "We" as in "We the people" need to snap out of this division spell someone has cast down on us. I admit...I am guilty of it too....not like the two party paradigm but I often create a 3 party war. I am against the Democrats for several things AND against the Republicans for many things as well. I get a little agitated when folks can't seem to put the sword down and discuss the root issues...

We have become fat, dumb and lazy. Everyone thinks they deserve an office job working 9 to 5 and get paid 6 figures a year. If they can't have that, what job the DO have they piss all over and act like they have stepped in dogsh!t the whole time they are there. Their performance is pitiful, their ambition is pathetic.

People don't try to better themselves anymore. They just get angry when they can't have what they want "right now" and feel they need to blame someone. (And that is both sides of the aisle.) I remember people used to sign up for things at their place of work to learn something new to get a better position. Now...it's a two fold problem. Not many companies offer OJT and when they do, not that many people seem to take advantage of it or apply themselves if they do.

Everyone...rich, middle, poor have become spoiled brats. they want what they want right now...which is why personal debt in this country is in the gazillions (ok, that is an exaggeration).

You don't have to yell personal responsibility to me...I get it. I occasionally "troll" threads to get rises from both sides. I have my own political philosophy and the very foundation of that is personal freedom and responsibility...self reliance. You do well, you reap the rewards...you do something stupid...you suffer the consequences. But I believe in a place where the freedom to do extremely well, extremely bad or somewhere in the middle should be the standard. Not one party or the other (of the two party paradigm) limiting that freedom...be it moral/social or financial.

Originally posted by MystikMushroom
Look,

I suppose part of the problem is that we are being "sold" a quality and standard of life in our media that is not compatible with the wages we are earning.

For years we have grown used to "having nice things" -- well, as inflation increased and cost of living increased, our paychecks didn't always follow suit.

So now we are making less, some of us without jobs -- but we still want that shiny new iPhone.

The blame goes all around. Demand for a quality/standard of living comes first from the people. Advertisers and media moguls only present what we want to see.

I admit, perhaps using a franchise operation wasn't the best analogy. Not that it matters, but in my town, the McDonald's are all owned (with the exception of two) by Corporate HQ.

Our family friend owns a very large private retail store. I think it used to be an old big-box store. She's actually thinking of downsizing her space, because people can't afford her products/services anymore. This dosen't just hurt her bottom line, but also the people she might have to lay off. And yes, she is a "millionaire".

Look, we're all partially to blame. The poor for being "poor" and the elites for driving the income gap to larger proportions. Personal responsiblity is a great idea, but we're way past that turning point now.

You had me until you diss'd personal responsibility.

Because, ultimately, we are responible for our own fortunes and failures.

reply to post by beezzer


Thank you for fighting so I don't have to. I hate to break it to you though...

Surprise! You're a socialist! (or at least living like one)

You have your salary, your clothing, your health care, housing (or an allowance), credit card (Star Card), even your meals paid for by the government! You even get to go to special gas stations with discounted gas, and shop at discounted prices at the Base Exchange for luxuary goods!

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

reply to post by MystikMushroom


Great points. I haven't really researched this issue, but your conclusions seem extremely plausible. While I do think that taxes could limit job growth, you are absolutely right that if money is not circulating in the majority of peoples hands, rich people have no incentive to expand their operations. Thus, we have a dilemma. If all the worlds fresh drinkable water was in the hands of a few people, and millions of people wanted a drink but didn't have any money to give would those few people still give their water? Money is like water, you cannot live in a civilized society without it. The money needs to flow just like water does in nature. Consumed by one person and shortly thereafter deposited into the dirt to rain down on others in its natural cycle. If water stopped flowing or was horded to where it was impossible to get a drink to sustain yourself, our lives would come to a grinding halt. Therefore, money stockpiled in peoples hands that isn't being used to develop their communities or expand opportunity is a detriment to all of us. There is nothing wrong with people having more money then they need, however, we have a situation where the majority do not have the money they need to buy the products they want or need. This ends up making the whole system grind to a halt.

Originally posted by MystikMushroom
reply to post by beezzer

 

Thank you for fighting so I don't have to. I hate to break it to you though...

Surprise! You're a socialist! (or at least living like one)

You have your salary, your clothing, your health care, housing (or an allowance), credit card (Star Card), even your meals paid for by the government! You even get to go to special gas stations with discounted gas, and shop at discounted prices at the Base Exchange for luxuary goods!

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

All true. And I work for it. I earn it. Been doing it since 1981. (ideologies not to derail)
I've given an internal organ, a left leg, and part of my right arm. Literally.

And yet I still serve, still honour the uniform, still respect those that enter harms way. And I still work. I could have left years ago (at 100%) but didn't. I could stop working when I get out in December. I won't. I wake up, I work. I support my family.

"For he can look the whole world in the face,
For he owes not any man"

The Villiage Blacksmith
HW Longfellow

You ever been offered a job by a poor man? Just sayin....

Originally posted by beezzer
Why do people feel entitled to anything they didn't earn?

Many "wealthy" people started out working long hours with great risk to their financial security for years.

If the wealthy don't create jobs, I'm guessing that the answer would be government, yes?

If that's the case, then embrace big government. I, for one, will be working to make government accountable AND SMALLER.

Personal responsibility. Embrace it.

I think if we take away the ideologies and just look at "trickle down economics" objectively as a business model, you'll see what was being said. "Rich guy bad" vs "rich guy job creator", "poor people victim" vs "poor people are entitled", ect is fun for drunken conversations in bars (with a first aid kit nearby). If we ignore the "class war" debate and treat it as a non-social issue, things look a little different.

The problem as stated is that you can not trickle down from the top because there will be nobody to invest into their expanding business. By investors, I mean consumers. You would need to expand the consumer base and that would naturally grow business. Trickle down was sort of how we bailed out the banks. It was stupid. Why not give the home owners the money so they could pay the bank and then they would be saved naturally and the people wouldn't lose their homes. Again, stupid.

It just seems like the default solution would be to create more customers first, then let the businesses create jobs.


ps edit - It could also be argued that we can't really debate this any more effectively than we could the Oak vs Acorn question.

reply to post by beezzer


Look, that came off really condesending, and for that I want to apologize. This whole election cycle has gotten everyone worked up and on edge, myself included.

I really don't want this discussion to get derailed by personal attacks, because the *issues* are what matter.

I admit I'm an odd mix of conservative values with social liberal tendencies. It's very hard to reconcille the two halves. On one hand, I understand where you are coming from with your points. Case in point:

I was behind a woman at the grocery store the other day. She was arguing with the cashier over an item that wasn't covered by her little food-stamp credit card. In the end, she pulled out some $20's and paid cash. That really upset me. She had more cash in that wad that I did in my bank account. Compounding that, was the fact she was buying JUNK FOOD for her little "army of welfare brats".

This entitlement attitude needs to stop! At the same time, we need to re-assess how we are spending and taxing our people.

When the credit bubble burst, people should have been realizing that their consumerism lifestyles aren't compatible with their wages. Yes, there are people screaming for "wealth redistribution" -- but I'm not willing to go that far. I think we need to encourage start-up companies. I have some awesome ideas, but I'll never get them off the ground because I don't have the venture capital to do so. (and no, I'm not sharing my awesome ideas!)

As someone else mentioned in this thread, we need to build a better mousetrap. We need to create something that the rest of the world will want, something that has lasting value and long-term job growth potential.

You see, I can understand where you are comming from. I live in a red state, and for me -- Romney might be the best for my state in terms of resource extraction. I'm not willing to give him my vote just on that fact alone. I'm almost 30, and have to think about the bigger picture.

Ask billionaire Bill Gates if he created jobs

Ask billionaire Steve Jobs's wife if her late husband created jobs

Ask millionaire Donald Trump if he created jobs

Ask millionaire Steve Wynn if he created jobs

I don't even need to continue, these men have created hundreds of thousands of U.S. jobs, now have some taken them overseas? Sure, but guess what, with Mitt Romney's tarrifs against the Chinese, this is the road to taxing companies that go to China, Romney will make America attractive to businesses, he will create millions of new jobs because of this philosophy alone, for it will fuel his decision making, bottom line...

Obama = Same joblessness that we have all seen first hand for the last 4 years
Romney = An expert businessman who will create millions of new jobs

Period. .