Some calculations and questions concerning "The End"

Originally posted by pthena
Later, during the "last supper" Jesus said "do this to remember me" rather than saying anything about remembering the Law of Moses.

Replacement theology? Perhaps.

Well, as ntech said, Christ would be the fulfillment rather than the replacement. Our debt still stands under the Law, but He effectively cancels out the debt.

We've gotten a bit off topic now, but I thought that was an important point to touch on.

reply to post by ntech

To answer your question. Yes. Why? For Judaism.

The question, I think, from Pthena that this was the answer to was, "Is there some actual benefit to mankind to be derived from a new temple?"
So, do you mean the way the world is to be a better place is through the temple?
Or do you mean, "Screw the world and let the Jews be the kings of the earth."? Just as long as they get what they want, to have power over everyone else?

Christanity is not a replacement theology. Its a rescue mission. A kludge essentially. A patch. A construct bolted on the orignal.

So you mean there is no value to Christian theology?
That it is really just a lie to trick the Jews into some sort of humility?
My position is that it worked, and they became Christians. That was what Paul was talking about in Romans. That is just a historical fact, that there was a vast population of Jews in the Roman Empire that basically ceased to exist because they ceased to be Jews but were now Christians. Your cult beliefs are based on an ignorance of, or refusal to accept, that as a reality.
Obviously this form of religion you are getting your ideas from is Christian in name only, since it does not accept it as the Bible describes, a kingdom without end.
Your cult doctrine claims that Christians were being described in Romans 11 as being grafted on to the Jews when it does not say that, but the exact opposite, that the Jews were cut off to be replaced by Christians.
I have to assume that when people go into these meetings that there is some sort of spell cast over them to look at something and believe they are seeing something else.

reply to post by ntech

If Christanity was a replacement theology it would be in violation of the Leviticus 26 compact.

Oh, do you mean this one?

‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. . .

There is an answer to that in the New Testament.

He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.
Colossians 2:14
The curse has been lifted and we have a law of love that Jesus gave to replace the old written law.
When Jesus said he was going to fulfill the law, he did not mean to carry out the obligation of the letter but to fill it up by making it complete.

reply to post by DarkKnight21

Our debt still stands under the Law, but He effectively cancels out the debt.

The way the New Testament describes it is that the document spelling out that debt is removed.
If you think there is another way of going about it, it does not come from the Bible but the doctrine of your cult.

reply to post by DarkKnight21

We've gotten a bit off topic now, but I thought that was an important point to touch on.

Noted. I mostly wanted to present the random thought I had to ntech, because he has great interest in Leviticus 26 and "top level curse" which he does relate to certain time lines.

You arrive at the 6,000 years by joining Genesis 6:3 with Leviticus 25:10 then use Epistle of Barnabas 15:4 as confirmation. You seemingly endorse Barnabas (it was included in Codex Sinaiaticus ).

Rabbinic Judaism also has a 6,000 year time scheme for the beginning of the Messianic Age:

According to the Talmud,[2] the Midrash,[3] and the ancient Kabbalistic work, the Zohar,[4] the Messiah must arrive before the Year 6000 from the time of creation. (According to Orthodox Jewish belief, the Hebrew calendar dates to the time of creation. The year 2011 corresponds to the year 5771 from creation).
The Midrash comments:
"Six eons for going in and coming out, for war and peace. The seventh eon is entirely Shabbat and rest for life everlasting.[5]"

There is a kabbalistic tradition[6] that maintains that each of the seven days of the week, which are based upon the seven days of creation, correspond to the seven millennia of creation. The tradition teaches that the seventh day of the week, the Sabbath day of rest, corresponds to the seventh millennium, the age of universal 'rest' - the Messianic Era. The seventh millennium perforce begins with the year 6000, and is the latest time the Messiah can come. Supporting and elaborating on this theme are numerous early and late Jewish scholars, including Rabbeinu Bachya,[7] Abraham ibn Ezra,[8] the Ramban,[9] Isaac Abrabanel,[10] the Ramchal,[11] the Vilna Gaon,[12] Aryeh Kaplan,[13] and the Lubavitcher Rebbe.[14]

5^ Pirke De Rabbi Eliezer, Gerald Friedlander, Sepher-Hermon Press, New York, 1981, p. 141.
6^ Zohar, Vayera 119a
7^ Bachya on Genesis 2:3
8^ Ramban quoting Ibn Ezra at Leviticus (25:2)
9^ Ramban on Genesis (2:3)
10^ Abarbanel on Genesis 2
11^ Derech Hashem 4:7:2
12^ Safra D'Tzniusa, Ch. 5
13^ Page 318, The Real Messiah, online access
14^ Sefer HaSichos 5750:254

Advent of the Messianic Era

2012 would be 5772. and 6000 - 5772 = 228 years left to go.

If Christianity abandons the world in 2016-17 then Messianic Judaism wins for 220 years or so.

I read the Epistle of Barnabas to figure out what he(whoever wrote it) may have thought about a dual covenant theory. He doesn't support it, but rather allegoricalizes most of the Old Testament, and says it was fulfilled. Accordingly, he concludes that stone temples and sacrifices and many laws were not to be literal even back in the old days. It was wrong to build temples then.

CHAPTER XVI.--THE SPIRITUAL TEMPLE OF GOD.

Moreover, I will also tell you concerning the temple, how the wretched [Jews], wandering in error, trusted not in God Himself, but in the temple, as being the house of God. For almost after the manner of the Gentiles they worshipped Him in the temple. But learn how the Lord speaks, when abolishing it: "Who hath meted out heaven with a span, and the earth with his palm? Have not I?""Thus saith the Lord, Heaven is My throne, and the earth My footstool: what kind of house will ye build to Me, or what is the place of My rest?" Ye perceive that their hope is vain. Moreover, He again says, "Behold, they who have cast down this temple, even they shall build it up again." It has so happened. For through their going to war, it was destroyed by their enemies; and now: they, as the servants of their enemies, shall rebuild it. Again, it was revealed that the city and the temple and the people of Israel were to be given up. For the Scripture saith, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the Lord will deliver up the sheep of His pasture, and their sheep-fold and tower, to destruction." And it so happened as the Lord had spoken. Let us inquire, then, if there still is a temple of God. There is--where He himself declared He would make and finish it. For it is written, "And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built in glory in the name of the Lord." I find, therefore, that a temple does exist. Learn, then, how it shall be built in the name of the Lord. Before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak, as being indeed like a temple made with hands. For it was full of idolatry, and was a habitation of demons, through our doing such things as were opposed to [the will of] God. But it shall be built, observe ye, in the name of the Lord, in order that the temple of the Lord may be built in glory. How? Learn [as follows]. Having received the forgiveness of sins, and placed our trust in the name of the Lord, we have become new creatures, formed again from the beginning. Wherefore in our habitation God truly dwells in us. How? His word of faith; His calling of promise; the wisdom of the statutes; the commands of the doctrine; He himself prophesying in us; He himself dwelling in us; opening to us who were enslaved by death the doors of the temple, that is, the mouth; and by giving us repentance introduced us into the incorruptible temple. He then, who wishes to be saved, looks not to man, but to Him who dwelleth in him, and speaketh in him, amazed at never having either heard him utter such words with his mouth, nor himself having ever desired to hear them. This is the spiritual temple built for the Lord.

reply to post by pthena

I read the Epistle of Barnabas to figure out what he(whoever wrote it) may have thought about a dual covenant theory.

You did better than I, when I tried to read it not too long ago. I was not too happy with the translation available online. I found this book on Amazon and ordered it (delivery by USPS): Apostolic Fathers: Volume II. Epistle of Barnabas. Papias and Quadratus. Epistle to Diognetus. The Shepherd of Hermas (Loeb Classical Library No. 25N), by Bart D. Ehrman. Along with what I assumed would be a more modern translation based on the best texts, it has has an introduction and bibliography that he recommends in his other book, Lost Christianities, reading. Hopefully I can find something in the bibliography that would give some sort of commentary on it if even an essay in a theological journal.

While searching on Amazon, using 'epistle of barnabas' for the search term, I ran across an interesting looking book, that also came up: Canon Revisited: Establishing the Origins and Authority of the New Testament Books, by Michael J. Kruger. I downloaded the Kindle version (being a newly published book, there were no less expensive used hard copies available on the site), assuming it brings up the question of why Barnabas was not included in the NT canon. I started from the beginning rather than searching for a specific part so I don't have anything to report on it just yet.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I forgot to include source info. That was Roberts-Donaldson English Translation found at: earlychristianwritings.com There are others also.

Much depends on what you're looking for from Barnabas. I was very disappointed the first time I read it, Lightfoot translation I believe. At the time I was looking for some support for Marcionite ideas ( Christian God different from OT God). No such idea from Barnabas. He's definitely a Yahwist.

intends to impart to his readers the perfect gnosis (special knowledge), that they may perceive that the Christians are the only true covenant people, and that the Jewish people had never been in a covenant with God. His polemics are, above all, directed against Judaizing Christians (see Ebionites, Nazarenes, Judaizing teachers).
In no other writing of that early time is the separation of the Gentile Christians from observant Jews so clearly insisted upon. The covenant promises, he maintains, belong only to the Christians (e.g. 4.6-8), and circumcision, and the entire Jewish sacrificial and ceremonial system are, according to him, due to misunderstanding. According to the author's conception, Jewish scriptures, rightly understood, contain no such injunctions (chapters 9-10).
Wikipedia

It is my opinion that such beliefs as Barnabas holds lead to bickering over the god and the covenant of the god. "He's mine!" "No, mine." "The covenant is with me!" "No, with me!

reply to post by pthena

It is my opinion that such beliefs as Barnabas holds lead to bickering over the god and the covenant of the god. "He's mine!" "No, mine." "The covenant is with me!" "No, with me!

Maybe why it did not make it into the NT canon, where the bulk of those that did make it drops any pretense to holding onto the old The Lord character.
It seems to just start over with a fresh new God and relegates the old to the work of "angels".
So the old covenant is an attempt at making do with a lot of hard headed people who never lived up to expectations formed by the example of their father Abraham.

d. p

reply to post by jmdewey60

Who are the "we" I'm talking about? Read the Genesis 48 and 49 prophesies. Quite literally according to the prophesy the descendants of Israel were to become a multitude of nations.

There is a blessing in Genesis 48, made by the old patriarch, May they grow into a multitude on the earth. I see no way to take that and interpret it to be a valid argument for my being an Israelite. Then in chapter 49 he gives blessings for his individual sons. I don't see anything in there that I would consider relevant to my status in some sort of nationhood.

Genesis 13
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

There is a parallel that can be made in Revelation but it is not a reciprocal interpretation, meaning you can see the imagery from Genesis being employed by the writer of Revelation but you can not use that passage in Revelation to interpret the passage in Genesis from which it is drawn.

And then add the Romans 11 olive tree parable. Essentially a Christian is an adopted Israelite. And as such they have all the rights, privileges and obligations of a natural Israelite.

It never says that in Romans 11 and your saying it does seems to be an indication that you are still under the spell cast by your cult indoctrination.

As such I would say that 80-90% of the world's population has at least 1 Israelite in their family tree now. Which makes the Leviticus 26 compact binding on them irregardless of their current religion. And before you mention it yes it's still valid and binding.

You are trying to ignore the Genesis compacts.
Genesis 12
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 15
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Genesis 17
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis 22
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Genesis 29
13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

The blessings of the Genesis compacts go through the seed of Abraham. His descendants. And the later chapters tell us the blessing went through Isaac to Jacob and his descendants.

Basically this is world conquest through genetics. And according to Genesis 48 and 49 by the end times the world will be filled with the descendants of Jacob/Israel.

Now look at Romans 11. What we are told here is that Jesus Christ has amended the Genesis compact. That faith has been added to the Genesis compact. Accept Jesus Christ and you are added to the olive tree. But then you have ask this question. "What is the olive tree?" It's the family tree of Abraham, Issac, and Israel. So when you become a Christian you are becoming an "adopted Israelite". You are being grafted into the family tree through faith.

So as a Christian you are now an Israelite. And the covenant of Leviticus 26 is now binding on you and your descendants.

Now look at this in Romans.

Continued.

Romans 9
25 As he saith also in Osee (Hosea), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias(Isaiah) also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Romans 11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Why is he mentioning those verses in Hosea and Isaiah? Because they deal with curses. He's aware of this curse of Malachi I referred to before. That's why the natural branches were broken off.

It is brought out by Jesus in the Gospel that there is a fundamental law that exists independent of a written law (which he describes as being inferior) that is spiritual in nature and what is the law of the new covenant. That law, the one Jesus gave, will never pass away, while the temporary law of Moses met its match in Jesus and not recedes into oblivion.

One problem here with the new covenant. It only covers Christians in good standing. If you are not a Christian then you are under the old. Secondly if you are backsliding i.e. not in good standing then you run the risk of being cut off. That's one of the lessons of Romans 11.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in
.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

This New Covenant is NOT a replacement to the Old Covenant. It's an amendment. An add on. If you are a Christian in good standing then you are getting the full blessings given by the Old Covenant. BUT if you get cut out then you become subject to the punishments of the Old Covenant.

that's also why there is an Apocalypse at the end of the curse. It's Old Covenant punishments on the nonbelievers.

And the other problem is that the curse of Malachi is a long curse.
Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

It's a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse. It's still running. And according to the historical evidence the Jews have been serving it. Plus this curse would have been triggered in the 69th week of the Daniel 9 seventy weeks. The 70th week is still waiting to run. Unfinished business.

This seems to be a theory unique to you. There is nothing to say that two days means 2000 years and even if it was, it would be completely irrelevant. Those curses were nailed to the cross. Any curse that existed in the past was nullified and a new beginning established by the reign of Christ. I think any hearkening back to those detracts from the reality of the rule of God through His son who he has enthroned.

Actually there is evidence for this curse. To start with let's look at a previous curse.

Ezekiel 4
1 Thou also, son of man, take thee a tile, and lay it before thee, and pourtray upon it the city, even Jerusalem:
2 And lay siege against it, and build a fort against it, and cast a mount against it; set the camp also against it, and set battering rams against it round about.
3 Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it for a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This shall be a sign to the house of Israel.
4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

390 days and 40 days. Each day standing for a year. Also look at the 70 weeks of years of Daniel 9. Or 490 years. Now lets look at Hosea 6.

1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

3 days. But that makes no sense. Even 3 years is too short. Simply there has to be another reference to look for. So what do we have here. Days in the presence of the Lord. So what does the bible have to say about that?

2nd Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Which is based on.

Psalms 90
4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

There's the 2000 year curse. Followed by a 1000 year day of Jezreel.

And as I pointed out before the New Covenant doesn't work that way. The Old Covenant is binding.

Actually it is taught in the bible. To start with the Leviticus 26 agreement specifies that no matter how bad the punishment eventually the Israelites would be restored to God's good graces. A nation of Israel is required in order for a new temple to be built. Now they are merely waiting for the branch to show up to build it.

None of those quotes answers my question of where a third temple is taught in the Bible.

To start with.

Zechariah 3
8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Zechariah 4
1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

Zechariah 6
4 Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?
5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the LORD of all the earth.
6 The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country.
7 And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.
8 Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.
9 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying'
10 Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;
11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
14 And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the LORD.
15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

There is 2 Branches. One obviously built the 2nd temple but what about the other branch? Clearly he has to build the 3rd temple. Why?

Continued

Revelation 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The Branches of Zechariah are the Witnesses of Revelation. One of them has to build the 3rd temple in order to witness in front of it.

Also Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

There has to be a temple for the abomination of desolation. Which occurs in the Last Days. When the Israelites have become a multitude of nations.

Amos 9
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

reply to post by ntech

You are trying to ignore the Genesis compacts.

Genesis 12 I don't see being a "compact", where that would have a connotation of an agreement. It looks like a conditional statement of intent by The Lord. If Abraham will do as asked, He is saying He would make Abraham a great nation. That would have been fulfilled in Solomon's kingdom, where it reached greatness, according to the story.
Genesis 15 says the number of stars in the sky, which according to Wiki Answers, would be about 3000, which was fulfilled maybe in Jacob's lifetime.
Genesis 17 says "I will make nations of you" which could mean Israel and Judea. The same word, with the exact same morphology is used in Jeremiah 1:5 to describe who he was to be the prophet to, then commands him to prophesy to those two kingdoms, so there is no reason to look for more than those two in order to fulfill that prediction.
Genesis 22 says "seed", apparently meaning descendants, and the same Hebrew word, with the same morphology is used in Job 2:25

You shall know that your descendants will be many, and your offspring like the grass of the earth.

so it seems to have been a figure of speech used back then and no to be taken literally, any more than it should be of Job and his descendants.
Genesis 28 says,

"Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west, east, north, and south."

It is talking about the ground, how it spreads, and not about individual particles. The ground goes out in every direction.

The blessings of the Genesis compacts go through the seed of Abraham. His descendants. And the later chapters tell us the blessing went through Isaac to Jacob and his descendants.

Basically this is world conquest through genetics. And according to Genesis 48 and 49 by the end times the world will be filled with the descendants of Jacob/Israel.

There is no "end times" in Genesis, just a reference to days beyond the present one.

reply to post by ntech

That faith has been added to the Genesis compact.

You have that backwards.
Galatians 3:17
The law that came four hundred thirty years later does not cancel a covenant previously ratified by God
The law was "added" when it was originally faith that was accounted as righteousness.

Accept Jesus Christ and you are added to the olive tree. But then you have ask this question. "What is the olive tree?" It's the family tree of Abraham, Issac, and Israel. So when you become a Christian you are becoming an "adopted Israelite". You are being grafted into the family tree through faith.

So as a Christian you are now an Israelite. And the covenant of Leviticus 26 is now binding on you and your descendants.

I am studying this analogy used by Paul in Romans and am right now reading about it in the Hermeneia Commentary on Romans by Robert Jewett. What Jewett is doing is describing the rhetoric as a sort of diatribe with an imaginary interlocutor (the other person in the discussion) who would be the metaphorical wild branch.
The main point he is trying to get across is about getting too high of regard for your self-importance.
The device Paul is using in this one piece of rhetorical dialogue is a horticultural practice of merging different varieties of the same species for whatever reason. In this example of a hypothetical gardening practice, the result is two types of branches on the same tree. Both are Christians, one type, the "cultivated" are the Jewish converts to Christianity, the other, the "wild" are the so-called gentiles.
Romans 11 doesn't go into describing the other components (of this newly modified tree) other than to say the root was sufficient for both, so the grafting was not done to compensate for any lack in the root. The tree itself is what supports all the branches, both wild and cultivated varieties.
I would venture to describe the root as God and the tree as Jesus and the branches everyone who did convert to Christianity, from one group or the other.
The analogy only takes up a couple verses within a larger context of relations between the various groups and their ideas of righteousness and where it comes from.
The idea is to get along and not to somehow feel superior based on the failure of some Jews to convert to Christianity.
Hosea 14:6 mentions an olive tree and I just got my fourth commentary on Hosea in the mail today so I can look into that to see if I am missing something.
Last night I was reading in volume 6 of the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Kittel, that is a thousand page book and one of a set of ten such books, in a Google books preview, and ordered the book to read the rest of the article on rhiza: a root. The point is that I am not content to remain ignorant and am actually learning something.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by DarkKnight21

 

Yeah, the first video is really interesting. The math is a little tricky though in its calculation of the 7000th year. I need someone else to check it and see if I am missing something.

Which one of the three versions of Daniel are you using?

The one that reads that there is not a 7 year tribulation but a 3.5 year left of the 70th week.