A question to the vets of Iraq and Afghanistan what are you saving us from?

Maybe I have missed a news bit or two, what terrorism at home? The number of deaths from terrorism at home is non-existent, we have more deaths from smoking (and I smoke, and still do), car crashes, plane crashes, convenient store robberies, car jackings, home invasion, ...the list goes on and ends with our current greatest killer in the US, Obesity.....Seriously, a big mac kills more than a terrorist does, maybe we ought to siege McDonalds.

I would say the batman movie massacre / Oklahoma bombing / Columbine / the anthrax after 9/11 / Shoot out from rival gangs in public areas all fall under domestic terrorism

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by freedomSlave

 

You once again seem to think soldiers have a choice, you used the words "avree to be deployed".

Your agreement is not obligatory, you don't get a choice in the matter at all, you will go where ordered when ordered or you will be punished under the uniform code of military justice( UCMJ for us military types). Which will most likely result in around 15 years in lovely Fort Levenworth Kansas ( a military prison for those that don't know) or a dishonorable discharge, which voids all the benefits for your college education and medical care at the VA.

It is not vvoluntary to be deployed, you don't agree to go, they tell you and you must, or you will wish you had.

Was this in any way unclear to you? It has been stated at least 4 times now in this thread, yet you act like the President walks into your unit day room and says "who wants to go risk their lives and kill civillians, while not seeing your family for 18 months, for little pay?"

IT IS NOT VOLUNTARY, YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE, YOU MUST GO IF ORDERED, YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE!!!!!!!

So once in the american military they just tell you u are going to be deployed here they own you just like that? wow that is brutal i mean seriously that is f up edit: here is your gun we are dropping you off in a field have fun ... really


edit that changes a lot of my views if that is the case

reply to post by freedomSlave


Yes that is the case, they litteraly "own" you, like you would own a dog. Soldiers sign away almost all of their rights when they sign the paperwork, a lot of poor foolish kids get "tricked" into signing up by their recruitersn being told it is all raibows and butterflys, and then they arrive in basic and the real world dawns on them, it is fasinating to see first hand, as they break down, and cry, until they finally accept the reality of the situation they are now in until the end of their contract.

Your contract expiring isn't always the end though, they can "stop loss" soldiers and force then to serve after their contract expires, and even recall you after years of being out, only to force you to serve again.

if you sign for 2 years of active duty, your actually signing for 2 years of active 6 years of inactie reserve, at which point they can recall you even after 7 years and 355 days and make you do a 18 month tour in Iraq or Afghanistan. At which point they can stop loss you and make you stay in even longer.

It is a tough life, that's why so many that serve stand up for the things that the uniformed consider so wrong. Our battle buddies don't get a say, the get to follow orders.

Have you ever heard the old saying "it isn't ours to question why, it is ours to do and die!"? These words are born of the truth of a soldiers life, they are as true as it gets for a soldier.

I now feel bad about some of my harsh language, I didn't realize you really thought we all wanted to do these things, it is just out of necessity that we do these things. They drop you and your buddies in hostile territory and you just try to bring you and your buddies back alive if possible, it is out of want to kill, it is out of want to live that soldiers fight and kill.

It is a brilliant strategy, everyone will kill to stay alive, so just put them in the position that they have no choice but to kill or die, and they will kill, it is ingrained in all life to try to live.

Originally posted by freedomSlave

Maybe I have missed a news bit or two, what terrorism at home? The number of deaths from terrorism at home is non-existent, we have more deaths from smoking (and I smoke, and still do), car crashes, plane crashes, convenient store robberies, car jackings, home invasion, ...the list goes on and ends with our current greatest killer in the US, Obesity.....Seriously, a big mac kills more than a terrorist does, maybe we ought to siege McDonalds.

I would say the batman movie massacre / Oklahoma bombing / Columbine / the anthrax after 9/11 / Shoot out from rival gangs in public areas all fall under domestic terrorism

And those examples you give are in the pervue of the law enforcement realms, not in the mission statement of the US Armed Forces, and seriously, you don't want it in their venue. The soldier, sailor and zoomie(said had to poke fun) are not in the business of law enforcement, they are not trained for that. Movie massacre, tell you what, any of us could pull that one off without the cops being the wiser, columbine was actually a fail for what they wanted to pull off, and yet still unexpected and unpredictable. anthrax, I worked that story on a news desk in DC, and have to say, still, how would you have stopped that? You left out the DC sniper, which did a really good job at striking fear, but still, a crime all the same. See here is the problem, these are all and I mean ALL crimes, just because some tend to label them as terrorist acts makes them no more ruthless or bloodthirsty. The valentine's day massacre, and oh wait columbine kids couldn't spell terrorist act nor did they have a clue what that was back then.

You haven't made your point about bringing the military stateside, and pray tell you never do, because I for one wouldn't want to see it. You think the police are ill-prepared to investigate a crime, there are only a few military units that are and they can't be everywhere. Besides, what are you asking for...martial law, because last time i checked that is the only time a military unit has jurisdiction inside the US.

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by freedomSlave

 

Yes that is the case, they litteraly "own" you, like you would own a dog. Soldiers sign away almost all of their rights when they sign the paperwork, a lot of poor foolish kids get "tricked" into signing up by their recruitersn being told it is all raibows and butterflys, and then they arrive in basic and the real world dawns on them, it is fasinating to see first hand, as they break down, and cry, until they finally accept the reality of the situation they are now in until the end of their contract.

Your contract expiring isn't always the end though, they can "stop loss" soldiers and force then to serve after their contract expires, and even recall you after years of being out, only to force you to serve again.

if you sign for 2 years of active duty, your actually signing for 2 years of active 6 years of inactie reserve, at which point they can recall you even after 7 years and 355 days and make you do a 18 month tour in Iraq or Afghanistan. At which point they can stop loss you and make you stay in even longer.

It is a tough life, that's why so many that serve stand up for the things that the uniformed consider so wrong. Our battle buddies don't get a say, the get to follow orders.

Have you ever heard the old saying "it isn't ours to question why, it is ours to do and die!"? These words are born of the truth of a soldiers life, they are as true as it gets for a soldier.

I now feel bad about some of my harsh language, I didn't realize you really thought we all wanted to do these things, it is just out of necessity that we do these things. They drop you and your buddies in hostile territory and you just try to bring you and your buddies back alive if possible, it is out of want to kill, it is out of want to live that soldiers fight and kill.

It is a brilliant strategy, everyone will kill to stay alive, so just put them in the position that they have no choice but to kill or die, and they will kill, it is ingrained in all life to try to live.

our's is not to question why, but to do and die.....and yes, we do, because of the mission. this is what civilians have a problem understanding. A mission that is not fun or pleasant is necessarily unethical or immoral. The war may be, but we can't question the war, we can only question an action, ie shot that unarmed civilian. If we question a war, we go to jail because we signed up for war.

reply to post by inverslyproportional

I now feel bad about some of my harsh language, I didn't realize you really thought we all wanted to do these things, it is just out of necessity that we do these things. They drop you and your buddies in hostile territory and you just try to bring you and your buddies back alive if possible, it is out of want to kill, it is out of want to live that soldiers fight and kill.

Yeah man I did think that! thank you for telling me . That really does change a lot of my views and puts a lot of things into perspective for me . No need to feel bad I understand your frustration . My ignorance has lead to my frustrations and have shown your bothers and sisters some disrespect that I feel bad for now . Thank you for answering my question of the thread I learned a lot from you and pointr97 you guys really helped walk me threw what I couldn't really figure on out in the matter .. thanks for sticking around gives more meaning to support your troops well you americans have this Canadians support and respect

reply to post by watchitburn

Carpenters build stuff, artists create art, and soldiers fight battles.Just because the reasons are BS or you disagree with it, those guys are not going to stop doing what they do.

I think this argument came about because a video "don't hurt me no more" showed those who are aiming the guns which appeared to be insensitive, even mocking those who have suffered from these wars. I know it bothered me. I thought it was a bad choice of lyrics and in bad taste. If this website is majority military let me know, otherwise...when dealing with death... it is not tasteful to flaunt it like an artist flaunts his art. There are tons of musical videos done by soldiers that would not have come off as offensive. As they say in writing class.....consider your audience.

reply to post by pointr97

no I was just pointing out that like that saying goes you cant try to clean out your neighbor when your back yard is just as bad or something to that extent it's pointless just like a war on terrorism

reply to post by pointr97


You remind me of a unit commander I once had, he was a very wisened 30 year old sergeant first class gone officer, which really made for a unique situation, as most officers don't have enlisted experience, they just know what they learned in ROTC ( pronounced ROTTCIE forr you civies) and OCS. Basically getting their real training on the job as a "butter bar" or "louie" from the first sergeant and platoon sergeants.

I would have loved to have an officer as knowledgeable as you around, it would have been wanderful. Instead I always ended up getting the " we just had a great 3 weeks in the field, I would hate to see it get ruined by a night of drinking and fornication, so let's all just get a long over due shower and hit the racks" type.

Lol ya right, after no hots or cots, or anything better than a field shower ( baby wipes for you civies) for a month, all we want is a night if drinking and fornication to try to feel like people again.

Although I do miss those guns the 155 howitzer one niner eights, lord, the sounds, the feel of the percussion, the far off "whooomp" in the impact area, that sweet stink of the "wolfs pussy"( the smoke from the breach that fills the entire area after a lot of rounds down range from artillery) aaahhhh yes, good times! Just thinking about causes a quicking in my blood, a rise in my pulse, that far off nostalgic look to glaze my eyes.

I wasn't even a bunny ( 13-B) I was FDC ( 13-E) " cannon fire direction control specialist". I was in the hummer with the computer, the chart table and the radio, mostly doing RTO, and filling out the ROF ( record of fire) but we all liked to switch it up to keep us sharp.

Good times...good times!

reply to post by freedomSlave


Np , I just hope we all learned somthing tonight, I know I did, I can't believe that many don't know these things, I always just assumed everyone knew, so I was as ignorant of the 2 sides in diispute as you were, we were both just 2 trains on opposing tracks heading in the same direction, but blind to the path of the other.

It is kinda weird that many don't know, although looking back I quess I didn't really realise until I joined either, the exact depth of the commitment, and how all encompassing it was, so I can see how someone, especially from another country could misunderstand the position of those that serve my country.

I just can't wait until the day that all those at the top stop exploiting the trully wanderful and exceptional people they are using and abusing for their sick enjyment, or persoanl gain, or whatever the point of the things they force the good people who just wanna serve their countrymen, and do the right thing.

One day my friend, one day a conversation just like this will happen again, except this time, it will be more along the lines "I can't believe that people actully used to have wars!" " oh yes they did, over many stupid things and concepts" "no they didn't, that doesn't make sense" " yes they did, they were told it was necessary" " how can killing your own people be necessary" " well back then they weren't a people, they had different countries, and religions" " religions? Countries? What were those? Are you sure they were real?" " oh yes and they didn't trust eachother, and so they would fight and kill millions just out of greed and fear" " what's greed?" " well they used to not have enough for everyone because sme people horded millions of times more than they needed, forcing millions not to have enough, s they would............."

Oh yes friend, one day, please be a day very close to this one.......please let it be very close to this one, because I know one day we will have enough throw off the chains and free all men from this evil once and for all........one day............

reply to post by inverslyproportional

I now feel bad about some of my harsh language, I didn't realize you really thought we all wanted to do these things, it is just out of necessity that we do these things. They drop you and your buddies in hostile territory and you just try to bring you and your buddies back alive if possible, it is out of want to kill, it is out of want to live that soldiers fight and kill.

Thanks for explaining the contract and all.... I feel bad as well, I didn't realize that these guys were technically locked in for up to 8 years. I thought they would learn the truth during those 2 years and get out, I had no clue they could be forced to stay. Thank you for teaching me this.

I never looked at it like I was saving YOU from anything...rather saving men, women and children from Tyranny and terror. If you haven't been there and fought yourself, then you could not possibly have any idea as to what is really going on in Afghanistan, or what was ever really going on in Iraq. During the 33 months I spent in Iraq, I was a machine gunner, providing security to convoys that were delivering supplies to bases and villages throughout Iraq. Never once did I fire upon anyone first. I did receive fire, and I did have the vehicle I was riding in blown up by an IED...and I returned fire. That doesn't make me a "war criminal" like your post insinuates. During each of my deployments I saw democracy spread throughout a nation that had never seen such a thing. These people you probably believe "don't want us there" asked for "photo ops" with soldiers. They sent their children to our trucks to receive food and water. They were grateful for the clothing, toys and sporting equipment we gave to their families. During my first deployment, after 8 or 9 months in country, while riding atop my HMMVW, with my .249 and .50 Cal, I saw a group of children, who all waved and smiled...wearing backpacks while walking to a school. For the first time in their lives. That WE built for THEM. So...now you may retort with another asinine question, about something you know next to nothing about, insinuating that I did nothing to help anyone, and I am some sort of terrorist. I'd put good money down however, that 95 percent of the Iraqis I ever interacted with, were grateful for the service our great country provided them with. But you wouldn't know...because you were never there, and you never saw it with your own eyes. You form your opinions out of thin air. You form your opinions out of individual disgraces, that were few and far between, at the hands of shameful service members. You ignore all of the good in the deeds of our country's patriots. It is your freedom to do so. You are welcome.

I have to reiterate. What truth could you possibly speak of having not ever known what is actually going on? I don't have to agree with the reasons behind either war to know that I did more good than bad for total strangers who live on the other side of the world. Not because I had to...I volunteered for both of my deployments. I don't mean to come across like I am questioning your intelligence, but until you can prove to me that the vast majority of soldiers regret having gone to Iraq or Afghanistan, I will contest that we have taken a questionable decision (at worst) and made the most out of the hand our commander in chief dealt us...

Originally posted by pointr97
Like Vietnam, you are asking the wrong group. Soldiers took an oath to obey lawful order, pose your question to the commander in chief.

Correct. Rather ignorant of the OP not to know this up front. Very bad taste and disrespectful to those brave men and women who choose to fight and die so we don't have to. IMO

Originally posted by RecentlyAwaken
reply to post by freedomSlave

 

As a veteran of Gulf War 1, I believe can speak for my brothers/sisters in arms (at least in part). It really doesn't matter what answer we give you're still going to have issues with it simply because people like you don't understand what believing in something truly means. By that I mean, believing in something to the degree you're willing to stand up, and face it head on and be willing to lay down your life for it.

So I guess this is what the OP was referring to when he said vets avoided his question like the plague.

Originally posted by newcovenant

Originally posted by pointr97
Like Vietnam, you are asking the wrong group. Soldiers took an oath to obey lawful order, pose your question to the commander in chief.

Correct. Rather ignorant of the OP not to know this up front. Very bad taste and disrespectful to those brave men and women who choose to fight and die so we don't have to. IMO

What are they fighting and dying over? That was the OP's question

They are fighting and dying for something you refuse to acknowledge could be possible.

Originally posted by mademyself1984
They are fighting and dying for something you refuse to acknowledge could be possible.

The suspense is killing me...

I pretty clearly already answered the question. Regardless of one's opinion of the wars, right or wrong (I personally never agreed with the way things shook out), the vast majority of us found the good in what we were doing. I know, it's an impossible concept for you to understand, but we are fighting for them. The people of those countries who want the Taliban gone, or want bombs to stop going off at every intersection. The day bombs are going off on your streets, I'm sure we will be here fighting for you too. I hate to break it to you, but nearly every Iraqi citizen, (man, woman or child) appreciated me leaving my family, to come to their country, and help them. I've worked along side Iraqi men, soldiers and even a General who served under Saddam, and our goal was their goal. We built schools, hospitals, rid them of a murderous President, brought them a democratic election and helped them rebuild. I wasn't there for you, or my family or friends, or the American people. I was there for them...that might not have been the reason I was sent there, but that was all I could do in good conscious to make things right. And regardless of how you feel about it, or whether you believe it or not...most soldiers I've ever served with looked at it the exact same way. Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, Personal Courage. Most Soldiers abide by that...and if their leadership's mission doesn't exactly fit those values, this country's finest find a way to make sure their objectives do. We are people...get this...who are no different than you. Shocking, I know.

IT IS NOT VOLUNTARY, YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE, YOU MUST GO IF ORDERED, YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE!!!!!!!

Yet, you do have the choice of joining the army, navy, marines, whatever, in the first place. If you chose to join the military, well, then you must know that chances are very good you will get deployed to some warzone. Or do some guys join the military thinking they will do some workouts and fire some guns all day long?

FACT is, it is your choice to join the military, and when you join them, you must also surely know, that you are just a tool, an instrument to be used.

If you know all that before joining the military, and think its gonna be lovely, well, then I guess, just wow. '

If you are such a patriot that you would go to another country, doing god knows what there, but certainly not fighting to protect your homeland, then you must realize how absurd your oath is and how blind your patriotism is. If my country were to be invaded by some other force, I would certainly stand up and fight on the frontlines. However, I will not sign up to go to some middle eastern country, not even knowing what you are doing there. So why sign up for the military then in the first place?

vvv