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A question to the vets of Iraq and Afghanistan what are you saving us from?

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posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 10:57 AM
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reply to post by acacko
 


Actually, under provisions of the USA Patriot Act and NDAA 2012, those freedoms do not exist anymore. Any American citizen can now be held indefinitely without cause or trial at the whim of the Executive Branch. Any American citizen can face extrajudicial killing anywhere in the world at the whim of the Executive Branch. Any American citizen can face rendition and/or torture without legal recourse at the whim of the executive branch. (Or at the whim of the intelligence community, or at the whim of local law enforcement, or at the whim of ATF, or...)

I think that you have confused Freedom with Freedom of Choice. We The People now have the choice to buy what we can afford, and...little else. We do not have the freedom to travel at our leisure (as pointed up by the number of people who arbitrarily end up on no-fly lists), we do not have the freedom to assemble and protest (lest we end up on DHS dossiers and/or the aforementioned no-fly list). Our lines of communication can be monitored without just cause, our loved ones can be taken away in the middle of the night, we might be put away for "making strident comments" and "posting conspiracy theories" on Facebook (as in the case of Brandon Raub).

"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

It seems to me that with the uncontested passage of the USA Patriot Act and NDAA 2012, you forfeited any right to engage in name-calling regards those who have chosen not to involve themselves in your endeavor, as you yourself have failed in that endeavor. I feel comfortable stating all of this in this thread without fear of going off-topic, as it does go back to the original topic.

What are you defending? Or, more accurately, how can you carry out your supposed mission ("to support and defend the Constitution of the United States") when what it is you are to support and defend has been rendered invalid by the legislative and executive branches? What is more, why would any thinking person volunteer (or continue to volunteer) to engage in such an activity, and then bristle when questioned about it?
edit on 9-10-2012 by lokomotiv23 because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 10:57 AM
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The United States isn't "defending itself"...the sooner you accept that, the sooner you can stop bitching.



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 10:58 AM
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reply to post by mademyself1984
 


That means I prefer to use my mind before blindly pulling the trigger.

Sir yes sir.



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by mademyself1984
The United States isn't "defending itself"...the sooner you accept that, the sooner you can stop bitching.


SO , what's going on ?



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by mideast

Originally posted by mademyself1984
The United States isn't "defending itself"...the sooner you accept that, the sooner you can stop bitching.


SO , what's going on ?


It has nothing to do with "blindly pulling the trigger". It does have something to do with being selfless and having courage to do things that some people, such as yourself, do not have the courage to do. I've explained several times what is going on. It's not the answer you want, so you will continue to insinuate that my service is somehow a crime, or a waste of time, or that I have performed some sort of injustice to humanity. The fact of the matter however, is that having not ever served yourself, having not ever been to either Iraq or Afghanistan yourself, having not ever volunteered to spend 3 years in a war zone, in order to improve the quality of life for complete strangers, three thousand miles away from your own family, yourself, you cannot possibly know what you are talking about. You have an opinion, you are by all means entitled to it. But you also do not have a clue what you are talking about.



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by mademyself1984
 



Nobody is "blinded by patriotism". Soldiers are constantly called "sheep", accused of being "brainwashed" and "blind". Explain to me, please, how you, the media, or anyone else for that matter...could possibly be more "enlightened" about either the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, than the soldiers who fought them. The vast majority of people who criticize the wars, have never served a day in the military, and have no ground to stand on when being critical of soldiers. I am a subject matter expert. You, my friend...are not.


Subject matter expert? When you wear that label on your avatar with the approval of the moderators of this forum, I will believe you.

At this point in time, America need defend itself against no one and nothing. I don't see "God" raining fire on nations because they cursed his name - why should we poke our noses into countries that are none of our business? We're greedy, pure and simple. And because of all of our business investments overseas, we are forced to follow through and stick our rifles up the posteriors of every person who looks at us wrong, because we know full well that if any of the countries we currently occupy did that because they don't like what WE are doing on our own soil, they would get their butts kicked to next Tuesday. Don't pass Go, don't collect $200. Have a nice day sir, and don't you forget it.

We could easily withdraw everything, close our borders, become self-sufficient, and we'd be the Land of Reclusivity. And it would work. We have enough people, technology, and geniuses to make it work. But we don't want to, because we can't stand the thought of "Oh, it might be nice to have what THEY have," and we stick our noses in it. And then, when we put our investments in countries we know very well will get in trouble, we have to defend our assets and interfere in wars that aren't our own.

What would happen if we just let a war play out until it arrived on our doorstep? I mean, those countries we have debts to couldn't collect from us if their lives depended on it. We'd blow them to God's doorstep before they could say, "Oh crap."

So why do we need such an aggressive military? Why do we need to make our brute force so pronounced, so obvious? Why do we need to beat our chest and roar like a mountain man claiming his mate? Why are we so primitive despite our technology and resources?

No, we have not served in the military. That's why we can see the matter clearly and you can't. You can go your own way, but I sure as hell won't consider a bullet in the head my first solution to a problem.



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 11:11 AM
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reply to post by mideast
 


What is going on is what President (and four-star general) Dwight D. Eisenhower warned us about; that is, the potential dangers of an military-industrial complex left unchecked. War is business, war is money, war is lucrative to a select few, and it is very easy to sell war to the masses when it is wrapped up in a shiny package of jingoism. All the more when the masses profit from such goings-on, and there are some regions of the nation (Hampton Roads, Northern Virginia, Front Range of Colorado) where the recession has been but a mere hiccup because of the military-industrial complex.

I highly recommend reading William Schirer's "Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich", followed up by perusing the "Project for a New American Century" (available online). It is a obvious as the nose on one's face.



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by mademyself1984
 



Nobody is "blinded by patriotism". Soldiers are constantly called "sheep", accused of being "brainwashed" and "blind". Explain to me, please, how you, the media, or anyone else for that matter...could possibly be more "enlightened" about either the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, than the soldiers who fought them. The vast majority of people who criticize the wars, have never served a day in the military, and have no ground to stand on when being critical of soldiers. I am a subject matter expert. You, my friend...are not.


Subject matter expert? When you wear that label on your avatar with the approval of the moderators of this forum, I will believe you.

At this point in time, America need defend itself against no one and nothing. I don't see "God" raining fire on nations because they cursed his name - why should we poke our noses into countries that are none of our business? We're greedy, pure and simple. And because of all of our business investments overseas, we are forced to follow through and stick our rifles up the posteriors of every person who looks at us wrong, because we know full well that if any of the countries we currently occupy did that because they don't like what WE are doing on our own soil, they would get their butts kicked to next Tuesday. Don't pass Go, don't collect $200. Have a nice day sir, and don't you forget it.

We could easily withdraw everything, close our borders, become self-sufficient, and we'd be the Land of Reclusivity. And it would work. We have enough people, technology, and geniuses to make it work. But we don't want to, because we can't stand the thought of "Oh, it might be nice to have what THEY have," and we stick our noses in it. And then, when we put our investments in countries we know very well will get in trouble, we have to defend our assets and interfere in wars that aren't our own.

What would happen if we just let a war play out until it arrived on our doorstep? I mean, those countries we have debts to couldn't collect from us if their lives depended on it. We'd blow them to God's doorstep before they could say, "Oh crap."

So why do we need such an aggressive military? Why do we need to make our brute force so pronounced, so obvious? Why do we need to beat our chest and roar like a mountain man claiming his mate? Why are we so primitive despite our technology and resources?


No, we have not served in the military. That's why we can see the matter clearly and you can't. You can go your own way, but I sure as hell won't consider a bullet in the head my first solution to a problem.



I'm sorry...but being a moderator has nothing to do with being a subject matter expert. Spending three years in Iraq, nearly 10 years in the United States Army, and counting...do make me a subject matter expert. I've been there. I've seen what happens there. I've seen what we are doing there, and it's not all doom and gloom like you want to believe. Again, either read my posts in this thread, or quit asking the same question over and over again. It is clear you either a.) are not reading my responses in full, or b.) you are not receiving the answer you want, so you are going to continue talking in circles. The people questioning who we are protecting ourselves from are refusing to consider the possibility that perhaps our country and it's soldiers are more than willing to put our lives on hold to lend a hand to others. Again. Selfless Service. Form your opinions of me, the United States Military, and all of the soldiers that represent it. The fact is we are all normal people, just like you. Maybe a little less selfish or encompassed in ourselves, but...that being said....you aren't very different from myself.



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 11:37 AM
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reply to post by mademyself1984
 



I'm sorry...but being a moderator has nothing to do with being a subject matter expert.


If the users here cannot randomly put a "Subject Matter Expert" label on their avatars whenever they feel the urge, then I would assume it's a privilege determined by the moderators of this site.


Spending three years in Iraq, nearly 10 years in the United States Army, and counting...do make me a subject matter expert. I've been there. I've seen what happens there. I've seen what we are doing there, and it's not all doom and gloom like you want to believe. Again, either read my posts in this thread, or quit asking the same question over and over again. It is clear you either a.) are not reading my responses in full, or b.) you are not receiving the answer you want, so you are going to continue talking in circles.


Life is always a circle.


The people questioning who we are protecting ourselves from are refusing to consider the possibility that perhaps our country and it's soldiers are more than willing to put our lives on hold to lend a hand to others. Again. Selfless Service.


Selfless service does not require guns.


Form your opinions of me, the United States Military, and all of the soldiers that represent it. The fact is we are all normal people, just like you.


Many soliders are required to go through deconditioning before they can live among civilians. They have to be trained to act human again. So what did they become before? Something inhuman?

I hear more stories of "it's nothing but bs over there, we shouldn't even be there" than I ever hear stories of "oh, it's fantastic, we helped so many people, that city wouldn't be there if we hadn't stepped in."

I hear, "Oops, there goes the city. Looks like we'll have to get them to build another one...but first, let's check for insurgents and make sure those women over there aren't carrying weapons."

Just becuse you see the military one way, doesn't mean it isn't being used in a harmful manner. I mean, the soldiers are programmed to follow orders unconditionally - who's guarding the guys giving the orders? Who's to stop them if they decide to do their own thing, regardless of war code?



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 12:56 PM
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reply to post by mademyself1984
 





The fact of the matter however, is that having not ever served yourself, having not ever been to either Iraq or Afghanistan yourself, having not ever volunteered to spend 3 years in a war zone, in order to improve the quality of life for complete strangers, three thousand miles away from your own family, yourself, you cannot possibly know what you are talking about.


But I can think about what will happen if I choose to go to another country ......

Of course I don't have a clue about what I am talking about , if you mean personal experience.

I have not personal experience about every other horrible crimes on this planet.

But I can think about them and the results.

That keeps me away from them



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by lokomotiv23
 


thank you.

It is the first time someone is recommending me to read a book on ATS.

I am really happy and searching
edit on 9-10-2012 by mideast because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 01:05 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 





Who's to stop them if they decide to do their own thing, regardless of war code?


They would start war video games and practice being commander , I guess.



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 01:47 PM
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reply to post by mideast
 


I'm talking real life, not video games.



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 02:08 PM
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I feel sorry for the soldier. I really do.

Once upon a time it was "good" to go into the armed forces for a career in hopes war didn't break out.

These days it is the young who are joining fresh out of high school and they have yet to learn about life and what is truly going on in the world.

The ones to be fighting is the ones who employ them, but they don't know this. Most don't anyway.


I also feel for the soldiers parents and family members. It breaks my heart!

Whether or not they are fighting a just war in their mind is really none of my business and at the end of the day/life we all have to be accountable for our choices and actions. That is if you believe one has to be accountable for anything.

Its a sad time indeed whereas the soldier has to go through so much inner turmoil and outer when dealing with the pressures of war and everything and everyone that comes along with it.

Im very appreciative for each service that has been given by man to mankind. I just really wish and pray that one day there will be no wars. Just peace for all of us.



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by mideast
 


I'm talking real life, not video games.


These people can not make their own mind on what they do and what they have done.

Whether

they will suffer from the pain of truth

or

they should start playing video games and forgetting the truth.

I added a little humor and I know what you meant. Some times people don't want to hear about the truth and you can not make them. That is the time I start the humor.
edit on 9-10-2012 by mideast because: garmmar is good



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 03:25 PM
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I do find the idea of honor and fighting for a cause a really amazing feat.
The duty of protecting my homeland till death if needed actually sounds like a good, positive and valuable thing thing to do with a life.

Sadly, like most ATS users know, this is not whats happening.
No need enumerate, you get the point.

Yes, most war vets will avoid to give a rational answer if you question them about their service in the army...and
it makes total sense because faith isn't rational. You can't explain faith rationally.

Like RecentlyAwaken's post.


Originally posted by RecentlyAwaken
... simply because people like you don't understand what believing in something truly means.


It's all about faith...

which were fulled by emotion and tainted with ignorance.

So Freedomslave, the answer you were hoping for is :
"I thought I was helping my country protect us from enemies but I admit that, if I knew back then what I know now, I would of never helped the greedy USA's elite gain even more control in the world with the use of brute force to covert, terrorize, kill, abuse, destroy, pollute..." the list goes on.

I'll read the posts and I do hope to find the answer we are both, and many others, are looking for.
edit on 9-10-2012 by theMediator because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by lokomotiv23
 


How have we failed to defend the constitution? It is still there and safe is it not?

Also, where exactly in the constitution or bill of rights does it say that the military personel have the right to take matters into their own hands and oppose a duly elected government?

A military opposition to the duly elected government is called a coup BTW.

It is not the place of the military to make policy or decide what is right or good, of which .gov personel are right or good. All authority of Americas military is now and always has been in civillian hands.

If you the people are ready for another civil war that will result in millions of lives lost, go ahead and start an armed revolution, the military will back the people, I guarantee it, but the military is not the one to start it or decide what is enough etc...

Only the people may make that decision, notthe military, deciding right and wrong, deciding who leads our country eyc is not the place of the military, their only job is to wage war and protect the people from attacks.



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

You are making the same mistakes as all the others chastising those of us who have and do serve, yet acting as though you share absolutely no blame in the problem.

Having never served, you share a greater share of the blame, as you have not sworne to uphold the constitution and follow the orders of the commander in chief.

You can at anytime, without violating an oath before God, stop all of this, just vote in better leaders. But you don't, and thus you push your share of the blame onto a completely innocent party. The people are the ones allowing this to happen. They do not take a stand and stop it, they continue to vote into power the same people that continue this cycle.

The military serves, much like a guard dog, if a guard dog is set loose on someone, who is responsible for the outcome, the dog or the master that orders his actions?



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 04:46 PM
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reply to post by inverslyproportional
 


Sure, the Constitution is there...on paper. It is certainly not safe, though, as I alluded to an earlier post; it has been gutted by legislative action covering the last three administrations. I will agree you've a valid argument that the Constitution does not contain a stipulation that the military act against a duly elected government...on the other hand, what if a succession of duly elected governments are disregarding Constitutional rights? What then? If, as you insist, it is not the bailiwick of the military to restore Constitutional rights, then why did you take an oath to support and defend that Constitution?

I'm aware that while military intervention in domestic affairs can be a less than pleasant proposition (although the wording of NDAA 2012 tells me that the aforementioned duly elected government is not too concerned with such a tilt), it need not necessarily equate to a coup d'etat (see post-Eisenhower Turkish history), nor be a reaction to a civil war with casualties numbering in the millions. (On the last count...millions of lives lost? Something you know you would care to share with us here at ATS?)

Make no mistake, I would never question the courage of our men and women in uniform, and realize that it takes quite the personal commitment to undertake some of the tasks that our military has undertaken...but, why have some of those undertakings been undertaken in the first place? You state that the role of the military is to "wage wars and protect the people from attacks."

We were not attacked by Iraq and/or Afghanistan. (In fact, regards September 11th, there is evidence that those attacks were not even carried out by the-bad-guys-of-the-moment.) So, if we were not attacked by either of those sovereign states, the military is not protecting the people from attack. The military is simply waging war.

Why is the military waging those wars?



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 05:06 PM
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reply to post by lokomotiv23
 


I believe the problem with this misunderstanding stems from the fact you believe somehow that the constitution and following the orders of the commander in chief are exclusive, when in fact they are inclusive.

Does the constitution give the president the power to order the military and wage war?( not declare war, as the is the sole constitutional authority of the congress)

The answer is yes, so he is allowed under the constitution to send troops anywhere for any reason as long as their numbers are limited below the constitutionally alotted amount correct?

So how is his ordering troops to a foreign land unconstitutional? It is not, in any way unconstitutional, so therefore is absolutely within the bounds of his constitutionally alotted powers.

If there is a morally reprehensible clause that removes this authority pleaseeducate me on the subject.

Otherwise, do as soldiers do, and suck it up, until such a time as you may vote in a more morally responsible leader of the armed forces.





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