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Originally posted by stumason
In which case, what's wrong with NATO and the Commonwealth?
Why the need to dissolve a national institution to placate the French and Germans who, once they have managed to get us to acquiesce to that, they can get us to do anything....
Originally posted by stumason
Besides, we can level China in half an hour, should the need arise and they know it. They would be mad to start throwing their weight around to the point we needed to go to War with them.
In the past Germany and France posed real threats. Nowadays those threats come from outside Europe.
The UK should have a referendum. The ruling elites in the UK and Europe are however opposed to giving people a democratic choice.
Churchill was an advocate of a united Europe so it is unfair to characterize European unification as insulting those who had fought to preserve our independence from Germany.
Originally posted by Foppezao
Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by ollncasino
In which case, what's wrong with NATO and the Commonwealth?
Why the need to dissolve a national institution to placate the French and Germans who, once they have managed to get us to acquiesce to that, they can get us to do anything....
Besides, we can level China in half an hour, should the need arise and they know it. They would be mad to start throwing their weight around to the point we needed to go to War with them.
I think if you look at the wars in former Yugoslavia (specially Bosnia) NATO had to wait until the US intervened. And for instance Srebrenica, decision making went way too slow, our troops asked for air support and didn't got it, the result was genocide..An initiative such as the European Rapid Operational Force (Eurofor) would handle these situations much better and much quicker..Europe should respond just as quick as US forces do, and we have a long way to go...
Originally posted by Foppezao
I think if you look at the wars in former Yugoslavia (specially Bosnia) NATO had to wait until the US intervened.
Originally posted by Foppezao
And for instance Srebrenica, decision making went way too slow, our troops asked for air support and didn't got it, the result was genocide..
Originally posted by Foppezao
An initiative such as the European Rapid Operational Force (Eurofor) would handle these situations much better and much quicker..Europe should respond just as quick as US forces do, and we have a long way to go...
Originally posted by michael1983l
Originally posted by Foppezao
Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by ollncasino
In which case, what's wrong with NATO and the Commonwealth?
Why the need to dissolve a national institution to placate the French and Germans who, once they have managed to get us to acquiesce to that, they can get us to do anything....
Besides, we can level China in half an hour, should the need arise and they know it. They would be mad to start throwing their weight around to the point we needed to go to War with them.
I think if you look at the wars in former Yugoslavia (specially Bosnia) NATO had to wait until the US intervened. And for instance Srebrenica, decision making went way too slow, our troops asked for air support and didn't got it, the result was genocide..An initiative such as the European Rapid Operational Force (Eurofor) would handle these situations much better and much quicker..Europe should respond just as quick as US forces do, and we have a long way to go...
It just wouldn't work. 23 different languages, 27 different Generals looking after their regional forces. We'd spend more time arguing with who was going to do what than actually "defending" (more like bullying other smaller nations). Bomb grid square 8 in french would translate to grid square 7 in German where the friendlies were. Man this is a catastrophy waiting to happen.
Do you seriously believe it would save money?
Originally posted by Freeborn
Exactly where from outside Europe?
Originally posted by Freeborn
And why do you think that is?
Originally posted by Freeborn
I didn't just mean WWII - our history stretches far further back than that.
Originally posted by Freeborn
I honestly don't see how it's relevant what Churchill believed.
Originally posted by Freeborn
But I'm sure his vision of a United States of Europe wasn't anything like the amoral and corrupt entity that exists today.
Originally posted by Freeborn
I personally could possibly support some sort of Federal Union that protected individual nations and their unique identities within a federal framework - but what we have now is an affront to all free thinking people.
Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by glen200376
Do you seriously believe it would save money?
Yes it will safe money. For example it has been agreed that France and the UK will share Aircraft carriers in the future. That reduces the cost of hardware and streamlines forces..
And, to add, I am not European. I am British by birth and English by the grace of God
Originally posted by ollncasino
Originally posted by stumason
In which case, what's wrong with NATO and the Commonwealth?
Why the need to dissolve a national institution to placate the French and Germans who, once they have managed to get us to acquiesce to that, they can get us to do anything....
The Commonwealth? I wish it was a strong institution but it isn't. The Anglo-Saxon nations should work closer together but the trend for the last 60 years has been them moving apart.
NATO? The UK will always be nothing more than America's vassal. Perhaps that is the road the UK should follow but when US and British interests diverge, America comes first.
We saw that recently with the Falklands.
In Europe, the UK gets a seat at the head of the table. Dealing with the USA, what do they say, 'alliances with the powerful are never to be trusted?
Originally posted by stumason
Besides, we can level China in half an hour, should the need arise and they know it. They would be mad to start throwing their weight around to the point we needed to go to War with them.
You perhaps over estimate the capacity of the UK's nuclear arsenal.
edit on 22-9-2012 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)
Do we get to share their supply of white flags too? We will be needing them if we start pooling resources with France.
Originally posted by ollncasino
The Commonwealth? I wish it was a strong institution but it isn't. The Anglo-Saxon nations should work closer together but the trend for the last 60 years has been them moving apart.
Originally posted by ollncasino
NATO? The UK will always be nothing more than America's vassal. Perhaps that is the road the UK should follow but when US and British interests diverge, America comes first.
We saw that recently with the Falklands.
Originally posted by ollncasino
In Europe, the UK gets a seat at the head of the table. Dealing with the USA, what do they say, 'alliances with the powerful are never to be trusted?
Originally posted by ollncasino
You perhaps over estimate the capacity of the UK's nuclear arsenal.
Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by stumason
And, to add, I am not European. I am British by birth and English by the grace of God
12000 years ago the UK was covered in ice. It was settled upon by European immigrants.. How can you not be European...?
Originally posted by justwokeup
Its not conceivable that the UK would ever find itself alone against an opponent such as China.
Therefore its a nonsense to say we need to surrender control of our armed forces to a foreign body to defend against it.
Originally posted by purplemer
YWes it will safe money. For example it has been agreed that France and the UK will share Aircraft carriers in the future. That reduces the cost of hardware and streamlines forces..
Originally posted by ollncasino
China. See my post above. We sailed around there in the 19th century and did what we pleased. History has a habit of repeating itself, but not exactly as before.
Originally posted by ollncasino
France in the 19th century also threatened the UK. I can't think of anything much in between since 1066.
Originally posted by purplemer
12000 years ago the UK was covered in ice. It was settled upon by European immigrants.. How can you not be European...?
Originally posted by stumason
China's strength lies in a relatively small number of highly industrialised cities, remove those and they become nothing more than a marauding mass of rice farmers.