European army backed

Oh jesus...

For the past 1,000 years England (and later the UK) have been fighting to prevent this very thing..

First, the HRE and the French, later the Spanish, then the French again and the Germans twice in the past 100 years. Now they (Franco-Germans) have managed to get what they want, the new European Empire by virtue of treaties and budgets.

The UK needs to get out and, as UKIP and the Conservatives have both seen evidence of, there is significant demand from the population on our status in the EU. When we joined, it was a free trade area and that's what we last voted for, today it is a bloated behemoth trying to force political union where there is little appetite for it, even within France and Germany.

We should leave and have the status of Norway, free trade and travel, but don't tell us how bendy our bananas should be!!

This just highlights the arrogance of the Euro member states, who seem to have no regard for democracy whatsoever. Britain is entitled to its Veto and should never be put into the position where our people can be railroaded into policies that are not beneficial for its people. Europe is becoming more like a dictatorship as each day passes, with un-elected politicians thinking they have the right to over rule national soverign governments and dictating what does and does not go. Germany has tried and failed twice to take over europe and it seems they are trying again, except with the slowly, slowly catchy monkey political route.

This is the UK's chance to give its people a referendum on europe if I have ever seen one, if it goes to the vote, the people will elect to leave. We have no need for a goverened Europe, just its trade links, we don't need a european parliment for that.

USA, Canada and the UK sounds like a nice trading block, I'd much prefer that, at least we have like minded people who speak the same language and don't dispise us.

Its not surprising. At some point in the future control of an Army is the only way the Brussels machine will be able to impose its will on a bankrupt and unruly continent.

The UK wont be joining. No doubt sections of the political class would want to but the public wont allow it. The slow steady improvement in support for UKIP shows where British sentiment lies.

If attempted this would force a UK EU withdrawal.

This is just another example of why we in the UK must have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.

I don't trust the elected officials of my own country and dislike their foreign policy - I have even less reason to trust the corrupt behemoth that is the EU and have no desire for our Armed Services to be at the beck and call of foreign powers.

Originally posted by stumason
Oh jesus...

For the past 1,000 years England (and later the UK) have been fighting to prevent this very thing..

Europeans share the same European civilization.

Is collectively defending ourselves as Europeans such a bad thing?

Or are we destined to be like the ancient Greek city states? Continually fighting between ourselves and unable to prevent a united front to external threats except in the most extreme circumstances?

The trouble is that whilst the people of the UK stay largely apathetic, the politicians will railroad us into this in hope that it will be them that attains the power of a centeral governed europe. The reality is that the europeans would never allow a Brit to rule the Union but it won't stop our politicians yearning. There needs to be more media coverage of this and the British people need to obtain an appetite for action, to show our government that this policy is not acceptable and that we MUST be given the right to determain our own futures.

reply to post by ollncasino

TWO World Wars and a total inability to deal with issues in their own back yard...ie...BOSNIA! HA! Europe is a never ending Cluster F@$# that cannot seem to learn from it's past mistakes. The Europeans were WARNED by the United States that Super Heavy War Reparations as a result of WWI would create a New German Nationalism because German People were STARVING in the streets. Did they listen to us? NO! WHAT HAPPENED? HITLER...THE NAZI PARTY AND WWII.

I trust Europeans to form a Union and AGREE to anything like I trust a CRACK ADDICT that just found a persons wallet full of Cash! In a few years it won't matter anyway. The U.S. will have an impervious LASER AND MICROWAVE BEAMING SYSTEM IN FULL OPERATION and we will no longer need NATO. This system will be able to VAPORIZE THE ACTUAL NUCLEAR WARHEAD WEAPONS GRADE FUEL...and it was not designed to just shoot down a Missile. It along with the MEB...will allow the same kind of OFFENSIVE DAMAGE that NUCLEAR WEAPONS CAN DO...just without all the nasty radiation.

The U.S. Military Budget can be cut dramatically and this system will negate the ENTIRE WORLDS NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES AS WELL AS VAPORIZE CITIES IF NEED BE. The Beam of the FEL is Hotter than the Surface of the Sun...if the Solid State FEL is powered by the New Micro-Fusion Reactor which is small and is 7 times more powerful than the New A1B reactors which two will be placed in all carriers but the Low Temp. Micro-Fusion Reactor is small enough to be added for exclusive use by the FEL...Beam Temps. could equal Solar Interior Core Temps. These Temps. would allow for Less time spent on Warhead Targets and Vaporize Uranium and Plutonium into Hydrogen and Helium.

Added to this is a World Wide Satellite Reflection and Targeting System that can allow Split beams to Vaporize Multiple in coming ICBM WARHEADS in Mass...ow widen the Beam to City Size or Multiple Army Divisions that also could be Vaporized. It can also destroy the Warheads MIRVED on a MISSILE in a SUB over 1000 Feet below the Ocean Surface. The FEL can actually go all the way to the deepest part of the Oceans Bottom. But subs cannot. So let Europe play around...and this time...we will just watch the RAIN WRECK IN PROGRESS!
Split Infinity

reply to post by ollncasino

Is collectively defending ourselves as Europeans such a bad thing?

I am not European - I am English and British - and very proud of both.

Exactly who are we defending ourselves from because as far as I can tell history teaches us that the biggest threats to UK sovereignty has always come from continental Europe?
This is just another attempt by the Franco-German alliance to gain European domination.
And all this will do is allow them to ride roughshod over individual nations who do not agree with their dictates.

In 1975 the UK voted for continued membership of the EEC - a free trade alliance - not once have we agreed to the transferance of sovereignty to foreign powers and the subsequent dilution of parliament's elected right to govern the UK.

If the people of the UK voted for continued membership of the EU in a referendum then so be it - until then I for one will passionately oppose to any such move.

Handing over our independant ability to protect ourselves to the EU, or anyone else, would be an insult to all those who have given so much to ensure our independance.

Well, i think its a good thing, considering all the budget cuts we've done, our armies (at least of the small countries) are nowhere near the strength we had during the cold war. In the 70/80's we had about 300+ F16's !, now 80, no tanks, and the worst, the morale is sinking, less training, less hours etc. Better than to join forces than to fade away..At least i hope we'll keep our navy.
If you consider that the European Coal and Steel Community was established to melt and join the French and German war industries, why not their armies? If every country supplies the best they have, this good be something. A country such as the Czech republic is also welcome, with their badass radar systems..

Originally posted by Freeborn
Exactly who are we defending ourselves from because as far as I can tell history teaches us that the biggest threats to UK sovereignty has always come from continental Europe?

In the past Germany and France posed real threats. Nowadays those threats come from outside Europe.

Originally posted by Freeborn
This is just another attempt by the Franco-German alliance to gain European domination.
And all this will do is allow them to ride roughshod over individual nations who do not agree with their dictates.

I agree with you there.

Originally posted by Freeborn
In 1975 the UK voted for continued membership of the EEC - a free trade alliance - not once have we agreed to the transference of sovereignty to foreign powers and the subsequent dilution of parliament's elected right to govern the UK.

If the people of the UK voted for continued membership of the EU in a referendum then so be it - until then I for one will passionately oppose to any such move.

The UK should have a referendum. The ruling elites in the UK and Europe are however opposed to giving people a democratic choice.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Handing over our independent ability to protect ourselves to the EU, or anyone else, would be an insult to all those who have given so much to ensure our independence.

Churchill was an advocate of a united Europe so it is unfair to characterize European unification as insulting those who had fought to preserve our independence from Germany.

If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance, there would be no limit to the happiness, to the prosperity and glory which its three or four hundred million people would enjoy.

Yet it is from Europe that have sprung that series of frightful nationalistic quarrels, originated by the Teutonic nations, which we have seen even in this twentieth century and in our own lifetime, wreck the peace and mar the prospects of all mankind.

We must build a kind of United States of Europe.

In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living.

Winston Churchill, 1946

The Churchill Society

Originally posted by ollncasino
Europeans share the same European civilization.

There is no "European" civilisation and never has been. Just over 1,500 years ago, what you see now as Europeans were invaders from the East (Goths, Franks, Huns etc). The people of the UK are, effectively, the ones pushed West by the encroachment in the East. We have never been part of a "European" civilisation.

Originally posted by ollncasino
Is collectively defending ourselves as Europeans such a bad thing?

Not in theory, but we have been doing that for 60 years anyway with NATO. Why do we need to get rid of our own identity (of which the military forms a huge part, like it or not) and submit ourselves to the will of a continent of people that do not share our values, language, customs or beliefs? If they wish to Unify, crack on, but we should have a choice as to whether we are part of that.

Originally posted by ollncasino
Or are we destined to be like the ancient Greek city states? Continually fighting between ourselves and unable to prevent a united front to external threats except in the most extreme circumstances?

Europe hasn't had a War between any of the powers for nearly 70 years and democracies do not tend to go to war with each other. I do not understand this need to immerse ourselves in such a poorly run project simply over fears we might need to be protected. The UK has not been successfully invaded by a foreign power for 946 years and I would wager it is pretty much impossible to invade today. What have we got to fear that we need to Unify to this extent?

It is ironic you are playing the fear card, as isn't that what the "PTB" or "MSM" do?

This is a logical and encouraged option. However, it's either 50 years too late, or 50 years too early. I don't think it would get much support from different populations now.

reply to post by SplitInfinity


That all sounds a bit arrogant and in truth ill formed opinion. What makes you think that if and thats a big IF the technology actually works, that other nations could not obtain the technology too? The US first got nukes but it wasn't too long before the UK, China, Russia, France and Israel obtained them, meaning a stalemate due to MAD.

The US is a mighty nation, but you underestimate other nations, just like your government does. The US cannot win the war in Afghanistan and they are a tin pot nation of small villages in the desert. What makes you think things will be any different in the future, technology can only take you so far.

And, to add, I am not European.

I am British by birth and English by the grace of God

Don't get me wrong, love Europe and have seen much of it and lived in parts of it, but I do not want our nation being told how to run things by people in a foreign land.

By jove, isn't that what we've been fighting all these wars against Europeans for in the first place?

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by ollncasino

 

I haven't given this a lot of thought so this isn't my considered opinion...just shooting the breeze.

My first thoughts see a lot of difficulties in the idea. For example, the infrastructure would need a monstrous level of bureaucracy to get over the regional, political and language differences. An army run by committee sounds doomed to fail! Also there are 'armies' and there are armies. Some nations have far better forces than others and wouldn't enjoy being in theatre with those who have a bad reputation, bad training and crap equipment.

On the positive side, Britain has jumped into one or two US-led wars that I didn't agree with. By being part of a Euro Army, we'd be more tied to the EU Human Rights legislation and make the UN more of an authority rather than just a choice. I'm not keen on having a missile ring pointing at Russia and the ME either and perhaps an EU Army would remove the need for that system?

The way to ease tensions between the US, China, Russia and the ME isn't by ramping up defences and using proxy hostilities; it's going to be by negotiation and balances of power. Maybe having this type of army would help that process?

We already have NATO and in some sense the WEU, dozens of exercises in the past..
The infrastructure is already there, The NATO standard of equipment/hardware and rules of engagement is spread throughout the continent.
The idea, i think, is that its less depending on US forces and command in Europe.
Lately we have a lot of Russian bombers going through our airspace, and very neatly and in good fashion the Germans relieve the Danish, and the Dutch relieve the Germans, and the British relieve the Dutch in escorting those bombers away..But then again, that should be just a very few squadrons handling those situations..

Originally posted by stumason

What have we got to fear that we need to Unify to this extent?

It is ironic you are playing the fear card, as isn't that what the "PTB" or "MSM" do?

China. If you think the Americans play hard, you ain't seen nothing yet.

I have an intimate understanding of China, its people and how they think.

Trust me. I'm not playing any 'fear card'.

It is policies like this one that is going to give the Mainstream parties a shock in the next general election. Tory voters are sick of the pandering to the lib dems and will naturally move to UKIP and the Labour/Lib voters will be wooed by the promise of a free and open referendum of membership into Europe. I can honestly see UKIP winning enough votes to become opposition in the next General Election and by golly it will be the kick up the arse the mainstream parties need.

Democracy involves the politicians listening to its electorate and acting upon their wishes. When was the last time that happened. We wanted a vote on the lisbon treaty and got nothing, we didn't want to go to war with Iraq but we went anyway. We didn't want to let the bankers hold us lock stock and barrel over the bailout, but the politicians failed to give the tax payer the terms we deserved. Our politicians STINK.

reply to post by ollncasino


In which case, what's wrong with NATO and the Commonwealth?

Why the need to dissolve a national institution to placate the French and Germans who, once they have managed to get us to acquiesce to that, they can get us to do anything....

Besides, we can level China in half an hour, should the need arise and they know it. They would be mad to start throwing their weight around to the point we needed to go to War with them.

Reply to post by michael1983l

i enjoyed your last paragraph michael, cudnt have said it better myself, english born and canadian raised i am, my dad (english) who is 83 and i were talking about this, all he said was he wants to go his grave knowing the uk is still independent and free, uk, usa, canada, nice, we did laugh alot tho when we realized you left out mexico.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by ollncasino

 

In which case, what's wrong with NATO and the Commonwealth?

Why the need to dissolve a national institution to placate the French and Germans who, once they have managed to get us to acquiesce to that, they can get us to do anything....

Besides, we can level China in half an hour, should the need arise and they know it. They would be mad to start throwing their weight around to the point we needed to go to War with them.

I think if you look at the wars in former Yugoslavia (specially Bosnia) NATO had to wait until the US intervened. And for instance Srebrenica( although a UN mandate), decision making went way too slow, our troops asked for NATO air support and didn't got it, the result was genocide..An initiative such as the European Rapid Operational Force (Eurofor) would handle these situations much better and much quicker..Europe should respond just as quick as US forces do, and we have a long way to go...