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freedom7
Isaiah 14:12-14 how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
freedom7
Isaiah 14:12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
The old Testament clearly identifies the adversary on many occasions, this is just one example. What about the story of the serpent in the garden of eden? Isn't that what you could call making the enemy known right off the bat?
freedom7
While I agree with you that translations can change the entire meaning of a passage/ story. There seems to be a consensus among scholars that the Old Testament was written in "Hebrew" , and that The Bible as a whole was actually written in three different ancient languages: Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
Would you agree with this? If so , please list why not. I'm always open to learning more, and keeping an open mind about all of this, the bible is a very mysterious book.
When you say that verse in Isaiah was actually in reference to the King of Babylon, and not a fallen angel. I cannot deny you may have a valid point, however that being said is it not true that large amount of the bible is written in parables/ stories that hint to a deeper meaning? Jesus almost spoke exclusively in parables to connect ideas of deeper significance .
is it not possible to consider that the King of Babylon is being used symbolically here in a story to convey the deeper meaning behind just how evil the Devil really is?
freedom7
- You are probably more educated than me on the history of the bible. I still have so much to learn. Just so I can research this topic further, can you please state your facts behind why you believe the Hebrews did not believe in the devil, and how it's strictly a Christian concept.
You may be right, I'm not disputing this, because I do believe even the concept of Hell and it's true meaning became very different from the old testament to the new testament , so there could be a pattern here.
I'm interested to hear back from you
freedom7
Thanks for the reply Masonicus! I will search through the thread and do my research
The one and only time that Satan is mentioned in the "Five books of Moses" is as a VERB.
It's part of the story of Balaam, who was hired to curse the Jews. En route, he gets blocked by an angel, whom G-d sent [this doesn't work as well in English as in Hebrew:] "to Satan him". In other words, Satan means to hinder or mislead.
In Hebrew an "S" and an "SH" are often represented by the same letter. So, the term Satan is also related to the Hebrew term Shtut, which means foolishness.
The Talmud teaches that a person only "sins" when a "spirit of foolishness" enters them. If a person was always rational, he/she would always do the right things. So "Satan" is the internal foolishness that gets us to do wrong- and then to defend our misbehavior. (In classical Jewish terms, we call this the "Evil inclination".)
We do encounter references later in the Bible to a "Satan" (like at the beginning of the book of Job). This is the angel that G-d created to act as the Accusing Voice in Heaven. So, when a person (whether alive or dead) is judged in Heaven, Satan has the job of digging up the dirt on them.
One thing is very clear in Judaism- Satan, the angel, is a CREATED entity. Like any other angel, he can only act in accordance with G-d's will.
Basically, Satan's got a dirty job, but someone's got to do it.
The information in this site is written predominantly from the Orthodox viewpoint, because I believe that is a good starting point for any inquiry into Judaism:
....
The yetzer ra is generally seen as something internal to a person, not as an external force acting on a person. The idea that "the devil made me do it" is not in line with the majority of thought in Judaism. Although it has been said that Satan and the yetzer ra are one and the same, this is more often understood as meaning that Satan is merely a personification of our own selfish desires, rather than that our selfish desires are caused by some external force.
There is no question that there will be no evil when Moshiach comes (see Zechariah 13), Satan included. The notion of throwing an angel into Hell is odd. Angels are not only beings without a yetzer hara, but they have are actually just bursts of G-d's energy and can never separate from Him, let alone be punished.
Frankly, it's ridiculous to debate further because you clearly haven't read any Orthodox Jewish sources.
Rambam's Moreh Nevuchim Book III, chap. 22 discussing sefer Iyove
"...the Talmud says as follows: "Rebbe Shimeon ben Lakish, says: "The adversary (satan), evil inclination (yezer ha-ra'), and the angel of death, are one and the same being." Here we find all that has been mentioned by us in such a dear manner that no intelligent person will be in doubt about it. It has thus been shown to you that one and the same thing is designated by these three different terms, and that actions ascribed to these three are in reality the actions of one and thesame agent. Again, the ancient doctors of the Talmud said: "The adversary (satan) goes about and misleads, then he goes up and accuses, obtains permission, and takes the soul." You have already beentold that when David at the time of the plague was shown the angel" with the sword drawn in his hand stretched out overJerusalem."
Rambam and Rebbe Shimeon ben Lakish teach that "satan" as discussed in Iyove and other instances, refers to a person's own instincts. Not "part" of God, or another force in the universe.
Strikingly, Maimonides quotes the saying of the Talmud, "Rabbi Simon ben Laqish said: Satan, the evil inclination, and the angel of death are one and the same."32 This somewhat enigmatic equation seems clearer given Maimonides’ assertion that Satan stems from a root meaning "to turn away;" thus, turning away from the Law is perverting what knowledge of God one has. Therefore:
partycrasher
I myself have seen and heard masons, shriners and others of this ilk state an adulation for lucifer.
when I pressed for an answer all I could get was that this lucifer adulation was more metaphor than actual worship of yhvh's adversary.
I have also heard from the mouths of masons talk of homosexual perversity in relation to the lodge.
I have also heard that not all lodges are exactly the same.
I get the feeling it is more about money, get more members to get more dues paid into the lodge to get better benefits endless sales pitch spiral,
Recently overheard conversations by new members who are not happy with joining, tired of the constant texts and phone calls from their "sponsors".
I do not get the feeling that anyone in there is very happy ,so glad I never really followed much in my anscestors footsteps because they like most masons have a strange weirdness to them and seemed more miserable than anything it must be a wretched existence.
ExiledBulldawg
We don't even drink in Blue lodge or AASR.
AugustusMasonicus
ExiledBulldawg
We don't even drink in Blue lodge or AASR.
You may want to join a lodge here in New Jersey, things are slightly different.
network dude
Yea, apparently at the end of the EA degree, you get to funnel beers while standing on your head.
Saurus
You should come to South Africa - our afterboards typically end at 2am!
CharlieSpeirs
While I agree mostly about this post, and it is a very good idea for a thread, I am certain that Freemasonry is not about believing in a Supreme Being, but in fact "The Great Architect".
Now depending on stance some people might say Satan is a great architect.
Also just so those who read this know, I am not one of those people.
Also, as far as I know, it is not required of a Mason to divulge which Grand Creator they believe in, nor discuss their religious beliefs. Merely that they do believe that their is a higher power that birthed the universe.
So it probably is possible for a Satanist to become part of the brotherhood.