Russia building nuclear submarines for India, page 4

I do not buy into the entire 'clash of civilizations' BS at all. Geopolitics is defined by national interest, and nothing else. The whole basis for your idea is an irrational fear over this shadowy spectre of 'neo-colonialism'.

You give America/'Western Empire' far too much power. A country cannot dictate onto another its own national interests, and certainly so for onto countries as large and significant as Russia, China or India.

Again, I reiterate you are misinformed, or perhaps a more accurate description would be, selectively reading. It appears all you take into consideration to support your fragile Indo-US relationship is what has happened in the last 2-3 years and your wishful thinking of it burgeoning further into something special. You're dreaming.

I am amused that you do not see the irony that I do when you whine about the 1962 Sino-Indo friendship and the betrayal, or perhaps even the Anglo-Indo friendship that later lead to the enslavement of your nation.

The Western Empire is real and controls more than 90% of the global economy and resources. The main geo-political and economic bodies UN, IMF, WTO are based in the west. The most technologically advanced army belongs to the west. The greatest knowledge/research infrastructure belongs to the west. The most powerful companies from Microsoft to Wallmart are owned by the west.

No one contests that. In fact, even in your own country, it is westernization that is the dominant culture. All you do, and it does not matter if you fess up or not, is cater to western companies with your call centres and technicians. This is only because you are cheaper. What you call "warming relations" is actually exploitation.

So, too right, I am giving the western empire too much power, because that is reality.

So lets get this straight. China who supplies the vast bulk of Pakistani weapons, has proliferated to them weapons, nuclear technologies, and nuclear weapons platforms, is more a friend/ally than a United States who 'overlooked' these sales??

You have mistaken my criticism of India as a support for China. This is nothing to do with China. This has everything to do with dispelling the delusions you harbor of US being your ally and cannot possibly entertain a hostile agenda for you. All I am doing is you waking up to the reality of the real world.

And I think you discount how far American-Indian relations have come. In Kargil in particular, America sanctioned Pakistan, and, along with even China, condemned Pakistan.

I am not discounting how far American-Indians relations have come. I am discounting your exaggeration of it.

You see this is where your naitivity seeps through. You think America's and China public stunts of condemning Pakistan is a reflection of their real stance. Actually, China and Pakistan have excellent relations, and if a conflict were to arise between you and either one of them, they will both be ganging up on you.

Not that it matters. India handily won the war itself. I must say I get the feeling from you the cold-war mentatlity of equating India and Pakistan. That this 'Indiapakistan' conflict is one of parity, and that only the favours and and whims of the 'big power's and 'western empires' play a significant role in tilting this balance.

Well, then you are wrong. I know that India is economically, militarily and technologically leaps and bounds ahead of Pakistan, and is more or less at parity with China. However, I don't see how this has anything to do with the subject we are suppose to be discussing.

Friend, that was over 30 years ago. You have to remember, less than 10 years before that, China signed friendship agreements with India, encouraged India to demilitarize the Tibetan border, and then promptly invaded and attacked a weakened India.

Yes, it was 30 years ago, but you're missing the point; the point is, that US showed aggression against you because you liberated Bangladesh. In the future, if you do something against US interests, the possibility exists for aggression. Now, please don't give me the BS that US cannot do that. The truth is you cannot do anything against the US if it did.

And in 1997, China transferred nuclear technologies and missiles to Pakistan. This is the act of our better friend against the big bad Yanks?

Yet, the US condemned you and slapped sanctions on you.

And for the four and some decades following the 1962 war, China launched incusions into Indian territory, supplied weapons and monies to terrorist groups in Indias northeast, given an incredible ammount of military and economic aid/write offs to Pakistan, which allowed then to continue their cross-border terror.

That has nothing to do with the US.

And in 2003, following the incredible resurgence of American-Indian ties, America allowed the Phalcon sale, which is a strategic force-multiplier unparalleled in that part of the world. Even today, numerous American/Israeli weapons systems are installed on nearly every Indian war material, and even with this sale of 30 year old rust bucket jets to Pakistan, America is offering India the most advanced weapons systems, including F-16blk50 + deep license for IAF, Aegis equipped ships and tricked up Orions for the IN, patriot missile systems and further development of Green Pine radars for IA, considerable defense and research investment and cooperation, etc., etc.

Hello, America sells weapons to loads of countries. There is no need to be excited that America is selling you x, y and z. America is also selling to Pakistan. All it is doing is fueling an arms race between you.

Pakistan wants many things. As I mentioned before, these are F-16blk 15s. Even India's MiG-21BIS fleet is a far more potent aircraft in all respects. These planes do nothing to erode the overwhelming strategic and conventional superiority over Pakistan.

The Indian Government was not as dismissive as you. America is still weaponizing Pakistan, even knowing, that they are going to be used against you. So much for your Indo-US friendship.

Look. I don't doubt India and America have a ways to go, but they are slowly and surely getting there. And frankly, I would consider China a far worse enemy than Pakistan.

You are barking up the wrong tree mate. Heed to the wisdom of Russia and form the trilateral axis with China and Russia. If you want a multipolar world. However, if you align with the Western Empire, you are just adding to it's already vast power and find yourself in an economic trap, and become subserviant to the New World Order. Before you know it, your leaders have sold your sovereignity to the west and you lose your independence for the nth time.

Then again I have no idea if your leaders have already sold you out. There is a Italian born leader ruling your country right now, correct?

Its MNNA status is a joke. A badge of being a US puppet.

That is hilarious. What do you think you are wanting to be?

India's trade with China: $1 billion.
India's strategic relationship with America relative to China: Priceless.

You have not addressed the actual fact that US invests $100 billion more in China. Yet you claim some sort of special relationship with US. Heck, you are not even in the top 15 trading nations of the US. I hope sense is prevaling and your illusions of "great expectations" are withering away.

I've not heard of that. Regardless, the world changed post 9/11, and cold war mentalties were for the most part dropped, and America woke the ***k up about where the rest of the world really stands. I can assure you however no such status or even assertion of any of the kind by any major policy maker exists today.

This was post 9/11 actually. I will try and find a source. Also, America was never sleeping, but it's seems you most certainly were. "The war on terrorism" was already planned before the 9/11 attacks.

You think we India's are sitting in our little villages spinning our little spinning wheels, basking in awe for the baksheesh the Yankee sahibs have granted us?

Well it certainly sounds that way from the way you are talking. You have not even considered the American threat and the expanding western empire. It certainly does not seem like you are looking after your interests.

Apart from the India-American relationship, the Indian-Russian, Indian-EU and dare I say (ack) Indian-Chinese relationship are growing. The geostrategic balance and friendships that exist assure that India is not going to get played.

You are too concerned about your relations with others. In the same way an Indian cares too much about what society thinks about them. No one in the world is going to take you seriousy until you do not become more assertive. It is the weak who conform; the powerful lead.

You must be certifiably insane to make that comment.

America and Israel are more fascist than PRC??

No, not insane, just informed. Which you are not. I don't think you realize that the western empire has become a global fascist organization. China is indeed a fascist nation, but compared to the empire and it's draconian regime, it's nothing. As for Israel, you have either not read anything about the decades of oppression of the Palistanian people, or you've been selectively reading again.

More agression than in China's relationship with India??

You are being childish. This is not about China. It is about you. And you would have to be highly ignorant, to not note the US aggression against India which has formed most of it's relations with India.

I don't care about playground fights and I don't care about egos. I care about the safety and security of over a billion of my co-nationals.

You obviously do not. Otherwise, you would not let yourself be doubleplayed by a neo-imperialist America. You need a credible nuclear deterant against America and Europe to secure the future of your billion people and you need to form an alliance to counter-balance the west. Otherwise, I'm sorry to say, you would be an overconfident and naive idiot.

America has thousands of nuclear missiles. Do you think that not even one is pointed at you?

You've completely ignored the question I asked you: How are you going to cope if US went to war with you?

[edit on 15-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]