Russia building nuclear submarines for India

their military used to only have nick name "flying coffin" for their air force....

now they are going to have "swimming coffin" also for their navy.


I am wondering when they start to build 'walking coffin" for their army?, or, do they have one already?

I am kind of surprised that you guys don't know that Russia has rejected this proposal. BTW, China's next generation generation nuclear sub 094 SSBN marine has come out way ahead of schedule...that is on our own.

Ivanov says no nuclear subs will be sold to India

Interfax. Wednesday, Dec. 1, 2004, 5:59 PM Moscow Time

NEW DELHI. Dec 1 (Interfax) - Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said Russia is not planning to sell or lease a Project 941 (Typhoon) ballistic missile submarine to India.
"We are delivering conventional submarines to India and do not rule out their future upgrade. As for nuclear submarines, we fully rule out their delivery," Ivanov told reporters in New Delhi on Wednesday

Perhaps you would like to present to the board here, a comparative flying-hours-attrition rate for the IAF with other nations.

Hmm?



Word of advice:
Idiotic one liners that fail to make sense come of worse than those that do.

-Raj

I don't have that info, do you? I just know that IAF is called the "flying coffin". Want source on that? I can provide.

Akulas are typhoons are they not? Akulas are a little outdated as it is a remanance of the cold war. A next generation SSBN should be planned but does India have then 8000+ mile missiles needed to fit these big suckers? India can't possibly hit America with medium range ballistic missiles and various other things must be solved too in order for a Indian built Akula equivilant to be fielded such as nuclear reactors designed for SSBN size subs, sound cancellation tech as India does not build much subs by it self and prefer to buy them, ICBMs and etc. The world'll just wait until India sends these hunchos into the Indian ocean and then see its effectiveness. Although for a country with no previous experience, its own first generation SSBN shall not be built in big numbers but rather see the problem and build another improved class. These shall take at least 15 years. Hope India catch up soon.

Originally posted by Hawkssss
I am kind of surprised that you guys don't know that Russia has rejected this proposal. BTW, China's next generation generation nuclear sub 094 SSBN marine has come out way ahead of schedule...that is on our own.

Ivanov says no nuclear subs will be sold to India

Interfax. Wednesday, Dec. 1, 2004, 5:59 PM Moscow Time

NEW DELHI. Dec 1 (Interfax) - Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said Russia is not planning to sell or lease a Project 941 (Typhoon) ballistic missile submarine to India.
"We are delivering conventional submarines to India and do not rule out their future upgrade. As for nuclear submarines, we fully rule out their delivery," Ivanov told reporters in New Delhi on Wednesday

Yes and the general also said the typhoons were built for the Russian navy and Russians are not planning to send essential Russian navy equipments to other countries.

Hawkssss,

Russia has ruled out sales of nuclear weapons platforms, because by treaty they are bound not to.

However, there is a little loophole called, somewhat euphemistically, "long-term leasing."

India "leased" a nuclear powered Charlie-I class submarine for several years, as INS Chakra, and was used by India to fine-tune nuclear submarine command and tactics.

Similarly, any Tu-22M strategic bombers India gets from Russia, will also be "leased" indefinately.

Sneaky are the words of the politico, friend.

I will believe it once I see it. BTW, what's all this leasing doing to your own military industry. Is it grinding to a complete halt yet? We have come out with almost 5-6 new ships and planes recent, 052 DDG, 054 frigates, 094 SSBN, 093 SSN, Yuan SSK, stealth FAC, J10, FC-1, L15 trainer. What have you made recently besides the failed LCA and Arjun?

You see. There is consequence to leasing.

Originally posted by Hawkssss
I don't have that info, do you? I just know that IAF is called the "flying coffin". Want source on that? I can provide.

Yes, I can compile it if the discussion merits. I won't waste my time doing so for trolls making idiotic, and ignorant one-liners.

The old MiG-21U of the IAF was called the 'flying coffin' by a couple local newspaper reporters, who singularly failed to understand that the more hours an aircraft is flown, the more likely it is to crash.

They similarly failed to grasp the notion that the MiG-21s attrition rate/number of flying hours is comparable to nearly every other MiG-21 user, including Russia.

Should be noted, though, that these aircraft are being retired, completly by next year.


Funnily enough, the Pakistani Air Force's attrition rate, across the board in all plane-types, as well as that of thte PLAAF's, per flying-hour attrition rate is worse than that of India's

...Yet, as you so aptly demonstrated, it doesn't stop the Pak and Chinese fanboys to still make references to this term.

Funny, the ability the human has for self-delusion

lol,

You have crashed 4 Mirage-2000 recently also. Is that human delusion. lol

Here is a good link to PLA weapons system and please don't even try to say crap until you go through it!
www.sinodefence.com...

1) China does't have AWACS: well you know what, we do. take a look at these photos???? It is reported that China already bought two An50I and one English source reported that China is in the process of fielding our self-make AWACS. This is an interview with the designer with our own indigenous AWACS.
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...

2) China is still fielding T-55 while india is fielding advanced british tanks. Like what. Do you have a frigging idea what you are talking about??????? Do these photos look lik T-55 to you? And what advanced british tanks exactly does india have, like the Challenger???? I thought it is fielding Russian T-72s mostly as their top of the line and most of their tanks were as old as some of ours!!!!! And they have scrapped their Arjun tank which was delayed for 10 years!!!!
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...://www.wforum.com/specials/articles/02/757.html

3) India's navy is better. Like what!!!! All it has are the two old carriers that are about to retire. They haven't added any DDGs in the past few years while chinese navy added two new Sovys (with two more due next year and the year after) and 4 054 Aegis-equivalent DDGs, a few 054 Steath frigates, Yuan-Class subs, etc. What has india added besides the 3 steath frigates it bought from russia????????

Our total naval tonnage is on a matter 2 or 3X of that of india and while there sub fleet is only a fraction of ours.

So people, please stop bullshiiiting if you know nothing. Bottom line is we make the majority of our own ships while india almost can't make anything. Its Dehli-Class DDG is at least one generation behind our new DDGs with VLS and Aegis-equivalent air defense system.

I am not even gonna mention the steath fast attack boats, which has been discussed in a different thread.

What has india made?????????

www.wforum.com...
www.sinodefence.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...

4) In terms of airforce, both are comparable in technology while we have a huge numerical advantage and we produced huge numbers of planes such as upgraded J7s, J8 etc and the new J-10 is under mass production and is exporting the FC-1 while india doesn't make ANY, ANY aircrafts and their air force is called "flying coffin". Please don't even mention LCA, which has failed a test in Russia just recently and they crashed 3 Mirage 2000 last month along. (yes, I can provide all the source you need on these)

www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.sinodefence.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...

We have our own trainer FTC-2000 while indian airforce's training is so bad that they are called the flying coffin and they had to buy some british trainer recently. See again, they can't make crap.
www.wforum.com...

5)In 1962, we beat them so bad that it is still hurting and some indians think they can take Tibet?????? lolololol, they can't even control Kashmir and China still occupies a piece of Kashmir (bet you didn't know that). Do you hear any bombings and things of that nature in China while we have insurgents in Xinjiang (mulism and connected with Al Quada) also?

The PLA has fought against the US-led UN forces successfully in Korea driving them back from the china-korea border back to the 38th parallel where the war stopped till today. (the casualty of China+n. Korea is roughly equal to the casualty of UN forces+S. Korea). We have skirmished with USSR, Vietnam and entirely and thoroughly obliterated the Indians in 1962. Not to mention, we had a huge hand in Vietnam as well.

Who besides the pakistanis and Chinese have the indians fought?

6) here is a link for security ranking by INDIANS, not by chinese.

www.nsrf.com...

7) please don't even compare our armies, missiles/space forces. Entirely two different leagues and please spare me of my typing.

8) Our GDP is more than 2X that of india in gross terms, PPP and on a per capita basis and industrial and manufacturing capabilities is on the scale of several times that of india. Our foreign reserve is aournd $500 bil vs. india's $130 bil.

China is the world's No. 1 steel maker (over 200 million tons in 2003) while India is the 8th with (with only 36 million tons of production in 2003-2004). China is the worlds No. 3 ship maker and I have no idea where india ranks!!!

China's soverign rating or country rating by Standard & Poor's is BBB+, which is investment grade while India's soverign rating is BB+ which is non-investment grade or junk status.

9) China's military budge ($50 bil) is more than 3X that of india ($15 bil) while both countries have similar purchasing power. And most western countries suspect that China spends more than this and india buys disproportinately more weapons from other countries than China by a huge margin.
www.cdi.org...
www.globalissues.org...

10) China doesn't have GPS system

Well you know what, we do... It's called Beidou and completed last year.
www.cctv.com...

11) China commits human rights violation while india is a peace-loving people.

Well why don't you take a look at these links and tell me what you think
www.mediamonitors.net...
indianterrorism.bravepages.com...
news.nationalgeographic.com...
www.sikhlionz.com...
indianterrorism.bravepages.com...
dalitstan.org...
www.geocities.com...
freespeech.org...
www.geocities.com...
www.newsmax.com...

12) Bottom line: China is making proportionally more and more indigenously while India is still buying most of its stuff from overseas while we outspend them 3 to 1. This only means India is being left behind by China further and further just like our economies. Our eoconomy grows faster than india's and in a decade, Chinese economy will be about 3X that of India while their population will surpass that of China in the next decade, without any revaluation of our currency which is most likely to happen in the next decade. Do you know what that means?????

Originally posted by Hawkssss
What have you made recently besides the failed LCA and Arjun?

You see. There is consequence to leasing.

Jesus Chisto.

Do you really have such a short term memory?

Let's take it to the LCA thread, right now.

YOU PROVE TO ME THAT THE LCA AND THE ARJUN ARE FAILURES.

I want solid, logical backing for your claims; cost-production analysis, project time-frame comparisons, extrapolations on the effect of these projects with the Indian defense industry, end-user analysis ratings, etc., etc., etc.!

You attempted to say that before, and I have comprehensively refuted all of your claims, yet you still claim the same??

I don't want to risk admin wrath for taking this thread off topic, so, for your esteemed conveniance, the link to the LCA thread is here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I hope to see you put your money where your very big mouth is.

-Raj

Here are the articles about the Indian Mirage-2000 crashes. lol
Spin it for me.


www.hindustantimes.com...
www.globalsecurity.org...

oh my god, a military expert like you don't know that the LCA is all but failed.. lol

kuku.sawf.org...
www.rediff.com...

Oh my god, a military expert like you don't know that the Arjun took 30 years to built and is all but scrapped by your own army. lol

www.tribuneindia.com...
www.rediff.com...

[edit on 13-12-2004 by Hawkssss]

Here is an interesting article (from indian sources) about india's own nuclear sub program (ATV), which is all but dead.

www.rediff.com...

The DRDO has succeeded with missiles, but...

George Iype

In May 1998, the DRDO and its chief Dr A P J Abdul Kalam became symbols of national pride thanks to the nuclear tests. DRDO's expertise in explosives and related technologies, and in systems engineering and integration was the key to the five devices tested by the Atal Bihari Vajpayee government.

Four months after the event, the government entrusted DRDO with a Rs 20 billion ballistic missile defence project. This is perhaps the most ambitious programme that DRDO has embarked upon. It would need to integrate the Russian-made anti-aircraft and anti-ballistic missile systems, which the army and air force are planning to induct, with an Israeli fire control radar.

The project, along with the Integrated Guided Missile Development programme and the nuclear submarine programme that DRDO has engaged in over the years, is meant to lay India's foundation of strategic missile programme and security stability.

But given DRDO's track record in the IGMD and nuclear submarine programme, not many believe the new ballistic project could come out with flying colours, that too in time.

It is not that DRDO's missile mission has not taken India to the rarefied heights of missile power. "If there is one area in which DRDO has succeeded with a certain degree of success, it is in missiles," says Prakash Nanda, a security expert in Bangalore who is currently writing a book on the subject.

"Agni, Prithvi, Akash, Trishul and Nag. All these missiles have made us proud. But the problem is that though a number of flight tests of these missiles have been successfully carried out, DRDO has been unable to induct some of them into the forces," he says.

For instance, for the last 16 years, DRDO has been building two types of anti-aircraft missiles -- Trishul and Akash. According to the government's defence plans, these surface-to-air missiles were to have replaced the Russian-supplied OSA-AK and Kvadrat systems by early 1990s. But DRDO has been unable to meet the deadlines.

To be specific, the Trishul project began in 1983. The original deadline was 1992. DRDO has spent more than Rs 2.6 billion on the missile, but it is still undergoing trials. Official sources say the major problem with Trishul is that the missile's command guidance does not work.

Hence, though the defence ministry has entrusted DRDO with the Rs 20 billion project, it is not confident that the agency will accomplish its task in time.

"The anti-ballistic missile programme will languish like the nuclear submarine project, which DRDO has been working on for years now," a ministry official comments wryly.

Fifteen years ago, the nuclear submarine programme was billed as India's key to second strike capability after enunciation of the no-first use policy. But after spending millions of rupees, the naval headquarters is now demanding a technical audit of the Advanced Technology Vehicle project, as it is formally known.

The design and development of the nuclear submarine is a joint project of DRDO, the Department of Atomic Energy and the Indian navy. The DRDO, DAE and navy together have spent a whopping total of Rs 20 billion on the ATV -- on its design drawings from Russia, civilian construction work, establishing test beds and testing facilities on the east coast and procurement of related equipment.

DRDO sources say the land-based prototype testing facility of the submarine reactor has been completed successfully and a training facility to familiarise with the nuclear submarine's power plant has also been set up. The submarine's power plant would use enriched uranium as reactor fuel.

But years after the ATV project was mooted, the submarine's keel is yet to be laid because DRDO has been unable to decide on its construction design.

Oh good LORD!

Your entire post is filled with straw-man arguments, attributing idiotic statments you made to me.

Your posts show an incredible ignorance of the Indian military. And more importantly, the points you bring up in it are completely random, completely irrelevant to my post or the discussion at hand!

What, did you spend all of 15 minutes cutting and pasting together rhetoric, hoping to pass it off as discussion? You must be so proud.


Let me take it from the very top.

Originally posted by HawkssssYou have crashed 4 Mirage-2000 recently also. Is that human delusion. lol

That is four crashes in an entire 20-year lifespan, genius. IAF's Mirage 2K attrition rate is lower than that of even France.

Here is a good link to PLA weapons system and please don't even try to say crap until you go through it!
www.sinodefence.com...

Dude, I have continually demonstrated I have a more comprehensive understanding of Chinese military technology and doctrine than you. I also post quite regularly in China-Defense.com, the only credible Chinese defense website (and universially regarded as such), where far more mature, rational discussion takes place than any of the wforums.

Can you guess who I am there

1) China does't have AWACS: well you know what, we do. take a look at these photos???? It is reported that China already bought two An50I and one English source reported that China is in the process of fielding our self-make AWACS. This is an interview with the designer with our own indigenous AWACS.

??? Where the hell did I say China doesn't have AWACS in development?
[Running total number of times you put things in my mouth: 1]

However, I have seen zero evidence, anywhere, that China's AWACS project has been operationalized. What has been seen is are flights involving a modified mainstay (And Jesus, the correct terminology is A-50I! It's an Beriev derivitive of an Ilyushin aircraft! Your knowlege of the PLA is quite impressively demonstrated )

Frankly speaking, as of now, these A-50s are simply empty shells, sourced from Russia. When credible information comes out about Chinese developments in AWACS-related technologies, or any official pronouncement comes out informing us of AWACS induction, or the like, then I -- and the rest of the world (except PLAAF fanboys) -- will say that China has an AWACS.

Regardless, IAF has three seperate AWACS developments. One, and most significant, is the Israeli Phalcon AWACS, to be installed on a A-50 derivativel. Bar-none, the most capable AWACS system currently in operation the world (America has several AWACS projects in the works.) It comprises an ELTA solid state phased-array radar and ELINT system that allows for simultanious air/ground tracking and unprecidented radar coverage over tens of hundreds of miles. This will most likely be inducted into the IAF around 2007, when the Chinese AWACS supposedly would be inducted.

India also plans induction of Phalcon on an Embraer platform, as well as having its own AWACS program, which is expected to be inducted in the 2007-8 timeframe.

2) China is still fielding T-55 while india is fielding advanced british tanks. Like what. Do you have a frigging idea what you are talking about??????? Do these photos look lik T-55 to you? And what advanced british tanks exactly does india have, like the Challenger???? I thought it is fielding Russian T-72s mostly as their top of the line and most of their tanks were as old as some of ours!!!!! And they have scrapped their Arjun tank which was delayed for 10 years!!!!

LMAO! Did I miss a post somewhere? Where the hell did this come from? British tanks? Let's see...
[Running total number of times you put things in my mouth: 4]

India's Arjun project is scrapped?? Are you talking about the same tank that is being inducted in regiment numbers? Are you talking of the same tank that is undergoing final end-trials before full-scale induction? Are you talking about the same tank that comprehensively outclasses both Chinese and Pakistani armor?

Autocar India magazine, India's largest automotive rag, did a comprehensive review of the Arjun, and interviewed both military and project development staff. It is the most comprehensive third-party review of an MBT project in the Asian continent.

A PDF of the article is available here:
s90370077.onlinehome.us...
Be sure to read closely about the capabilties and induction dates.

If this does not clear up any of your concerns about the Arjun project, I want you to bring me specific criticisms. And I will gladly address them

Regardless, the bulk of India's armor is still quite superior to the Chinese equivilants -- regardless of the fact that Indian and Chinese armor will never meet in combat

3) India's navy is better. Like what!!!! All it has are the two old carriers that are about to retire. They haven't added any DDGs in the past few years while chinese navy added two new Sovys (with two more due next year and the year after) and 4 054 Aegis-equivalent DDGs, a few 054 Steath frigates, Yuan-Class subs, etc. What has india added besides the 3 steath frigates it bought from russia????????

Firstly:
[Running total number of times you put things in my mouth: 8]

You're joking, right?

The Indian navy comprhensively outclasses the PLAN in terms of technology, power-projection and punch. The IN is expanding at a significantly faster clip than the PLAN. The stated target by 2017, well reachable, is centered around a three Carrier Battle Group Fleet with 20 MR Aircraft and 50 helicopters, and 185 ships and 40-50 submarines, including SSBNs.

Recently the IN has inducted three Delhi Class, four Talwar class, three advanced Talwar class, nineteen ships in production, plus in 2-3 years the induction of even newer vessels such as P-15A, P-16 classes.

The current Indian naval fleet at the very least matches, and in nearly all respects, outperforms their PLAN equivilants. Is this fact really in dispute? The number of advanced/capable ships in the PLAN are smaller than that of India.

I reccomend the following links to discussion about the comparative capabilites of Indian and Chinese ships:
forum.keypublishing.co.uk...
forum.keypublishing.co.uk...

Our total naval tonnage is on a matter 2 or 3X of that of india and while there sub fleet is only a fraction of ours.

So what? The majority of your naval tonnage are rust buckets that wouldn't last a day in combat, even if they had the capability for blue water operations.

So people, please stop bullshiiiting if you know nothing. Bottom line is we make the majority of our own ships while india almost can't make anything. Its Dehli-Class DDG is at least one generation behind our new DDGs with VLS and Aegis-equivalent air defense system.

LMAO!!!

This is rich. Before I waste time debunking a foolish arguement. I want a specific comparison, detailed explanation from you comparing Type 054 to their Indian equivilant, in terms of weapons, systems, and ASW capabilities. I'll let you, with your awesome knowlege of the IN, figure out what ship classes exactly those are

Oh, and
[Running total number of times you put things in my mouth: 11]

4) In terms of airforce, both are comparable in technology while we have a huge numerical advantage and we produced huge numbers of planes such as upgraded J7s, J8 etc and the new J-10 is under mass production and is exporting the FC-1 while india doesn't make ANY, ANY aircrafts and their air force is called "flying coffin"

With the exception of China's numerical superiority (mainly comprised of MiG-19 rips ), the rest of this is pure, unadulterated BS.

I won't rehash the same explanations again, as you seem to be brilliantly able to forget that your 'facts' have been continually, comprehensively, refuted by me and others.

I refer anyone interested to the following threads where I have gone into very great detail debunking this shrill rhetoric.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Strangely enough, or not so, Hawks fled from those threads with his tail between his legs, when faced with actual fact.

The reason he refuses to debate in those active threads about this subject is because he simply cannot. For every claim he makes, I point have pointed out how and why its BS. So instead Hawksss tries to derail this thread with the same accusations, hoping that everyone will forget that his accusations were proven to be crap in the above threads.

We have our own trainer FTC-2000 while indian airforce's training is so bad that they are called the flying coffin and they had to buy some british trainer recently. See again, they can't make crap.

What do you call IJT, AJT? Do you even know what those acronyms mean? LOL

5)In 1962, we beat them so bad that it is still hurting and some indians think they can take Tibet?????? lolololol, they can't even control Kashmir and China still occupies a piece of Kashmir (bet you didn't know that). Do you hear any bombings and things of that nature in China while we have insurgents in Xinjiang (mulism and connected with Al Quada) also?

Are you seriously comparing Xinjiang's terrorism with that of Pakistan-backed terrorism in Jammu&Kashmir? LOL. I'm not even going to address the absurity of this comparison, as it would be another tangent you'd love to distract this discussion with. Open a new thread if you want this.

Regarding the 1962 war, here is a website I and a friend have authored:
sinoindianwar.50megs.com...

It goes into very great detail how China was able to best India in this border skirmish forty years ago. Suffice it to say, China launched a surprise attack against India whom it had just signed a friendship pact with; the Indian army was 1/3 the size it is today, equipped with WW1 and WW2 vintage weapons, the IA troops in the war were outnumbered by the Chinese attacking forces by a ratio of 1:6; the IA troops had no supply lines, a day's worth of ammo, etc.; they were not acclimatized; and finally, they had no heavy weapons; deployed in tactically indefensible, totally unfortified positions, etc.

And yet they still managed to kill six times as many Chinese soldiers as they were killed?

Are you seriously suggesting a similar situation exists today? When fully 2/3s of the IA comprises mountain eqipped divisions, with numerical parity, technological superiority, far more active-war and mountain-war experience, etc., etc.?

Have you forgotten the drubbing China took in the various clashes since then? Where India and China had parity of numbers, so no doubt victories were due to superior leadership, training and combat skill?

If you would like to read more about this conflict, from a both Chinese and Indian disucssion about it (me included), please visit the following link:
www.china-defense.com...

And of course
[Running total number of times you put things in my mouth: 13]

6) here is a link for security ranking by INDIANS, not by chinese.
www.nsrf.com...

And I do not dispute the ranking. In fact, I have their very report in hard-copy (www.nsrf.com...)

I wonder if you understand that the index they have compiled deals purely with that what they term 'defensive conflict power'; i.e. the abiltiy of a country to repel attacks rather than conduct them.

It futher expands on the notion of comparable deployment which makes a direct country-by-country comparison of NSI rank un-comparable. In other words, China has a larger NSI rank due to its sheer numerical superiority against every other country; yet the technological sophisitication of numerous second-teir countires that have no force projection capability, such as ROK, Japan, Sweden, have improved their NSI (defensive) ranking considerably.

The NSRF report details how exactly that China's deployable forces against India have parity in number and inferior technological sophistication. Are you even familiar with the concept of relative force deployability? China has more troops + planes. It also has a 2x larger border surrounded on all sides by hostile nations. The same reason India cannot withdraw significant troops from the Pakistan front to combat China in a war is the same reason why China cannot bring comprensively numerical superiority verus India that would negate Indian tech/training advantage.

Are you suggesting something different?

7) please don't even compare our armies, missiles/space forces. Entirely two different leagues and please spare me of my typing.

LOL! I believe we have just compared the Armies, and found China lacking significant advantage. In terms of technology, weapons, training, and experience I dare say India has the advantage -- of course negated by China's sheer numbers, again.

I will give you that China has a 5-8 year lead in missile/space forces. Not that India doesn't already have a credible nuclear deterrant versus China already, and is fast catching up in missile technologies as well.

[Running total number of times you put things in my mouth: 12]

8) Our GDP is more than 2X that of india in gross terms, PPP and on a per capita basis and industrial and manufacturing capabilities is on the scale of several times that of india. Our foreign reserve is aournd $500 bil vs. india's $130 bil.

And yet India still manages to bring superior military technology at the fraction of the price as China, as well as comparative force numbers?

Ain't the concept of strategic scale grand?

9) China's military budge ($50 bil) is more than 3X that of india ($15 bil) while both countries have similar purchasing power. And most western countries suspect that China spends more than this and india buys disproportinately more weapons from other countries than China by a huge margin.

China's military budget acccounts for both purely military applications as well as the military/governance system that is the entire PRC administrative structure. The number of troops, and the number of actively hostile fronts ensures that the per-soldier budget is less than that of India.

The ability of India to source domestic as well as foreign systems allows for a considerablely more cost-effective technological superiority whereas China must develop inferior domesitc weapons systems ensuring Chinese tech inferiority, and interms of small-ticket purchices, creating gross ineffeciancy; it's simple economics.

India's current military fleet reflects clearly India's ability to maintain credible conventional parity and nuclear deterrance versus China. It is also a testiment to India's military-industrial/politcial complex that, despite China's continued increased military spending, makes the straegic gap between India and China in terms of both weapons systems and technologies, grow smaller each passing year.


[quote10) China doesn't have GPS system

Well you know what, we do... It's called Beidou and completed last year.
www.cctv.com...

11) China commits human rights violation while india is a peace-loving people.

Human rights abuses happen in India, like in any developing country. Are you seriously trying to compare the human rights record of China versus India

ROTFLMAO

Good luck, chum.


Oh yes....
[Final total number of times you put things in my mouth: 13]

Brilliant cut-and-pas.... er... I mean "discussion" on your part.

-Raj

Are you pulling out a 5 year old article on the ATV as proof of its failure?

Consider the following facts:

- Recently, on 27 Oct Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) in Bangalore for the first time confirmed the ATV project is in the final stages. For the first time, this year, the allocated budget for the ATV was listed in the Comptroller and Auditor General of India report. (Feel free to dig around for it here cag.nic.in...)

- India has just recently succesfully tested Prithvi III naval variant (i.e. Sagarika SLBM) in an underwater launch, as well as ship-stabilized launch. The Naval chief said following the tests that India will "operationalize" the variant in the "near future."

As of now, there is no Indian submarine with ballistic missile launching capability.

- About 6 months ago, a major breakthrough was reported from IGCAR in Kalpakkam of a pressurised water reactor nuclear reactor being developed with Russian assistance. This is a type of reactor that would power a nuclear submarine.

- A JDW report from 14 May of this year specifically quoted top-level sources in the IN that India solved many technological problems in a domestic SSN project, and that Russian officials "considerably" helped India to this regard.

- In June, the IN unveiled a 148 page force doctrine that neccessitated underwater nuclear weapons delivery platform, and stated that there is considerable work going on to remedy this shortfall.

- Recent BrahMos missile tests a couple months ago confirmed submarine-launched capabiltiy aboard Russian submarines. Among the various agreements reached with Putins visit to India, the "full-scale operationalization" of Brahmos with nuclear-based underwater platforms "in both the Indian and Russian navies" was widely reported


Draw your own conclusions.

All I am saying is, in 2008-9 timeframe, don't be surprised when ATV will float out of drydock.

I won't post the hundred articles on the ATV here. I suggest you go to these two threads, on another forum, which is comprehensive collection of these articles:
www.protonriver.com...
www.protonriver.com...


-Raj

Ok,thats a long post,not gonna waste time copy-pasting.

1. The Arjun Tank.

India's Arjun project is scrapped?? Are you talking about the same tank that is being inducted in regiment numbers? Are you talking of the same tank that is undergoing final end-trials before full-scale induction? Are you talking about the same tank that comprehensively outclasses both Chinese and Pakistani armor?

Try using that against the Type-98s.We will see how you can "outclass" them. I'll even put my money on a T-72 against a Arjun tank.

2.India's Navy

Your navy is nothing.Our DDGs and fast attack crafts are better,if not totally outclass them.

3.India's Airforce

We use mainly MiG-19 rips?You guys only use old MiG-21s.Actually,we don't use MiG-19s.Our J-7s and J-8s are modified so they can take on Indian mirages.Your flankers?We will take care of that with AAA guns.

4.Space/Missle Technology

You guys don't even have ICBMs.ICBMs are easier to build and they are actually just fire and forget.With space,you need the skill and technology to build.Don't mention Japan,the reason they don't have ICBMs yet have space tech is they are bound by a WWII treaty.India's nuclear deterrent?Please,you guys got around a hundred of those while we have thousands.MAD is not an potion for you.

5.Financial

China's economy is GROWING,try 2050 for China's heyday,and,investors prefer pouring money into Shanghai than into India,even after the CAO Incident.Our economy is outgrowing yours everyday.In wartime we can afford to spend more money than now.

W4rlrdI don't mean to bash you but besides the DDGS and the SSBNS china has no blue water capability..unless you tow those fast attack craft to international waters!!
And if you expect us to come to your waters and mess you up there well then you give us far to much importance..Thanks though!!
Actually 2 carriers both with a 1000km operating radius can wreak havoc at the chinese coastline,..whats the range of the fast attack craft??!!:p
And if we keep the carriers moving then it'll be difficult for your MKKs to attack too...

conversely if you bring DDGs into our waters..(much more than chinese regional waters) then it'll be bye-bye for them...(BrAHMoS)


Talking about the AF, the J-7 is not as good as the Mig21Bis...anybody can tell you that!!
By god the MiG-21 Bis was alomost a match for the F-16s of the RSAF!! (turning radius was inferior though )

And RAjkhalsa pointed out a fact that ive being harping on for ages on this thread..the deployability of the PLAAF/PLA in Tibet is questionable as compared to the IAF or IA. AF bases can show that...
Plus your air defence assets..can you give me an overlay of their distribution?..I suspect they're not concentrated on the Indian border.just a hunch though...

Plus you think a 100 nukes is not enough for assured MAD??!!

You're pretty optimistic to suggest that China can swallow 100 nueks!!

[edit on 14-12-2004 by Daedalus3]

Scary. Like said in the first reply, Russia are equiping countires for the upcoming war, it's that obvious, otherwise why would 3rd world countires need such weapons?

I estimate that in 5-10 years WW3 will start, and countires will be attacked by all kinds of forces:
Robots
Soldiers
Vehicles
Missiles
Nukes
Ships
You name it. Russia will probally start it with China and North Korea, and they're equiping soon to be allies with the weapons they will need....

Russia has been selling arms to India since CCCP times and the countires have been allies since then....When the US made a definite choice of Pakistan over India in the late 1950s the Indians naturally turned towards the soviets who were more than willing to have an all ywith a warm water coastline...I suspect the thrust into Afghanistan was to be followed by the fall of Pakistan...most likely to India with the assistance of the Soviet Union from annexed Afghanistan..And there the USSR would have a warm water port, and entry into the oil-rich Middle-East..Iran was already in the USSR pocket due to the revolution and the middle-eastern states eager soviet arms buyers. Infact IMHO the soviet failure in Afghanistan was much more important to the US than the vietnamese or korean wars..If Afghanistan had fallen, thnigs would have progressed much faster from there and out of US control.The US didnt have much grip on the Middle east in the 70s especially after the fall of the Shah of Iran.
The chinese angle in the russian view of things is much more recent..post 1990s brought on by the Gorbachev 'china first' policy...And the Chinese arms import from Russia is solely for taiwan IMHO...they do not see any conflict with the Indians in the near future esp with on the confidence building measures taking place..also Russia would prefer to see a friendly relationship between China and India..More complications due to the Indo-US ties in the last decade..Hence no WWIII...too complicated for that to occur..alliances are so skewed that it is impossible to draw a line between two majors groups as it were..We're in for a lot of tense international politics but no war!
(Unless a madman comes to power somewhere, that can always turn the whole thing on its head!!)