The Beast Is Here, His Mark, His Symbols !

I guess all the 13's are "coin cidence"

Right lets get this straight and go through things piece by piece:

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
Bigdanprice, you are incorrect, NERO was not the Anti-Christ/Beast for a couple of reasons. First, to set rome on fire is not the same as "Calling Fire Down From Heaven" there is a very big difference, anyone can set a fire.

Considering that Nero declared himself a god, I think fire from Heaven is a pretty reasonable conclusion. John is making fun of him.

Second, he never caused anyone to recieve a mark in their right hand or forehead in order to buy or sell. Third Rome may have worshipped him but I think it would be overstated to say "Worshipped" and that not even to the level of being God.

Once again with Nero deifying himself, he was worsipped as a God. This is all absolute conjecture, please consult some evidence before shooting from the hip like this.

Fourth, Rome was not the world, only a part of it. The whole world will worship the Beast, except those who do not take his mark.

Right. to any one who dabbles with historic fact, the whole world to the Roman's and to John, the Roman world, no one knew what was beyond its borders. When reading a historical text ie the bible you cannot extricate meaning from your biased point of view. When John wrote the whole world he meant the Roman Empire. Check any history book you choose.

Anyone who states that the Anti-Christ has been here already is a liar, the Bible cleary states that the mark will be placed "IN" not ON but "IN" the right hand or "IN'" the forehead. This fact alone points to this present time we live and no other time. The Digital Angel Chip is placed "IN" the body, not ON and is already in use to inable people to "BUY". They have said the best location to place this chip is "IN" your right hand.

Right I am not a liar and resent the accusation. I think your belief is making you embrace ignorance here; because for a start you are debating the minutae of the English meaning, to extricate the true meaning you need to consult the original Greek. I think you are taking a leap of faith to far to think that the digital angel chip is anything other than a shopping tool or possiby a tracking device. I think john was talking about the branding of Christians at this point to buy as slaves, a common practise in Nero's Rome.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark "in" their right hand, or "in" their foreheads:

No one in history has done this, If there has been any Name him!
His system is in place, The Beast is soon to be revealed.

Nero did as did many other Roman Emperors did. I expect you will not listen to this but to continue banging on about something that has absolutley no basis in fact. If it turns out to be true I will come around to your house and apologise, though I dont think it will be happening any time soon.

Wow thanks for starting this thread, I have some very interesting insights that i am about to implode onto all of you, that will and should make your head spin.

First off, Religions, they are created to give all humans a sense of being, a cause, a sense of reality, just basically something to believe in so "we" as humans dont walk around the earth with our minds continuly spinning of how did I get here etc.

Second, The Beast, yes the writers of "Religions" were correct on this one, the beast is " man" actually human (Men/women) and is instilled in all of us. No one on this planet can even deny this because we have all had impure thoughts, wished others harm and lied, cheated and stole in one way or another. The beast is a symbol which stands for impurity, evil, deception, destruction etc.
We have come to our own demise by our own "god". (read further you will understand our own god)

Third GOD, Supposively created all of us in this form. I doubt that, because we all are "GOD", but dont see it. (Men/Women) have created everything we have now by using "GOD" hense by using our brains. Our brains interpet every possible thought proccess we choose to believe, in creativity, hatred, jealousy, attraction I can keep going but I wont.

The true point I am making here is the Bible was written by man, Man has dictated history, civilization, theory, technology, nutrition and has even learn to adapt to diffrent environments. We all use our brains to create good and evil, so too make a long sentance short "wake up", "The Beast and The God you are all searching for lies in your own head. We created it, we will destroy it.. its just fact nothing more, nothing less.

Sorry if I hurt anyones beliefs but I think its time we all wake up and take accountibilty for ourselves and stop putting all the worlds good and bad on two diffrent spectrums "God" & "The Beast" and accept what we as (men/women) have done to ourselves.

Just my thoughts

I also created a thread on this topic which I feel this subject may take a turn from the original thread. "Relegion is a Hoax".

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 15-10-2004 by Justmytype]

bigdanprice, again you are wrong. Nero never called fire down from heaven, nor has any man in history done so . Nero performed no miracles or wonders, Nero did not rule over ten Kings without a Kingdom. It is not written anywhere in any book that Nero caused all the world to recieve a mark in their right hand or forehead in order to buy or sell, that is your misguided interpretation of history, you have no facts or documents to back up your statements, they are false. You also have taken occasion to speak for john, saying that he was refering to rome as the "whole world", I am sure john knew the difference between the whole world and rome, even in those days rome was only a part of the whole world, you had the vast empire of egypt, again a misguided interpretation.

Justmy, this is the response to your thoughts:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


1 � Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: [have�: Gr. run]
2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. [unreasonable: Gr. absurd]

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Byrd

If you check with Biblical scholars, you'll find that most state that:

Revelation referrs to events in the past and not the future
That Nero was the "beast" that was referred to. A very detailed analysis is here:
www.ecclesia.org...

I have never actually talked to a Preterist before; I was starting to think that none existed anymore.

Welp, if you'll check, you STILL haven't talked to a preterist. I'm Wiccan, actually.

Unfortunately, you are only partly correct. Most protestant biblical scholars where actually historicists. Luther, Wesley, Calvin, all believed that the end times started after 70 AD, ...So yes, they believed that much of Revelation happened in or before their time, but also that there was more to come.

Never heard that, but it still doesn't change much. I'm basing my observations on current Biblical scholars and historians who have access to a whole thundering lot of material that Luther, Wesley, and Calvin didn't have. They are the ones who are saying that it means Rome.

Therefore, what country came into being around 1798, and matches the description of the second beast. Two parties (horns), no crowns (kings), comes in as a lamb but becomes a dragon (starts as a Christian country, but begins to loose its morals) and is getting ready to enforce the national ID and RFID?

Well, I'd say that it wasn't losing its morals. If you'll recall, the orignal morals for this Christian country included:
* slavery is good/acceptable
* no education for women
* no rights for women
* abortions were done in secret and if it wasn't possible to abort, babies were simply killed in the woods
* children were sold to tradesmen
* marrying little girls of 11-13 is okay
* only rights for white males who owned land
* it's okay to kill the Indians and steal their lands
* beating your wife or child is an approved social response
(etc, etc.)

Now, in my estimation that sort of morality isn't good for people and it's not something that I think is particularly good for society. I don't think it's particularly healthy, either. And I could go on with a nice long list of things that were considered "good and moral" many years before that which wouldn't sit well with people.

So, I'd say it was gaining better morals rather than losing morals, though I know many will disagree.

Furthermore, I think in your eagerness to prove the US is the "second beast," that you've neglected the REST of the verse:

13:11
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
13:12
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

This doesn't match the US (we haven't forced anyone to worship any other country/person who suddenly got better after being attacked.)

13:13
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

13:14
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

I think you'll have a hard time matching those verses.

13:16
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

13:17
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

And of course, I think you're wrong with the last, where it says "it is the number of a man".

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
I guess all the 13's are "coin cidence"

ROTFL!!!! Hehe, I needed that. Thanks

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
Nero never called fire down from heaven, nor has any man in history done so .

Right here we go again. The bible is not literal. Let me say that again incase you didn't understand... The Bible is not literal. It is full of metaphor and allegory. That means that when it says something it doesn't literally mean it. Fire down from heaven, means it was sent by a God, yes? SO if Nero declared himself a god,
'Nero became even more tyrannical, claiming that he was equal to Apollo and the other gods. He encouraged emperor worship and had a huge statue of himself erected in Rome.'( from www.bible-history.com...)
then it is reasonable to conclude that any fire he caused would be from heaven. No magic. Its allegory, check the word in the dictionary if you want.

Nero did not rule over ten Kings without a Kingdom.

Isn't that the definition of an emperor, he rules kings and an empire not a kingdom...

It is not written anywhere in any book that Nero caused all the world to recieve a mark in their right hand or forehead in order to buy or sell, that is your misguided interpretation of history, you have no facts or documents to back up your statements, they are false.

OK, try the Roman historian Tacitus. Look it up on the internet. It means that Nero enslaved the Roman world...

You also have taken occasion to speak for john, saying that he was refering to rome as the "whole world", I am sure john knew the difference between the whole world and rome, even in those days rome was only a part of the whole world, you had the vast empire of egypt, again a misguided interpretation.

Now then, the Egyptian empire, at the time was a Roman vassel state, ever heard of Antony and Cleopatra, this is when Egypt was annexed to the Roman Empire. Here is a map:

There is a great deal of historical fact to back up what I am saying, all you have is a misreading and misinterpretation of the bible. Come back when you have something valid to say.

Wrong again bigdanprice, it is your opinion that the bible is not literal, here is a verse that clearly points out your error.
2Ki 1:14 Behold, there came fire down from heaven, and burnt up the two captains of the former fifties with their fifties: therefore let my life now be precious in thy sight
clearly here it states that fire came down from heaven and burnt the two captains:
2Ch 7:1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.

2Ch 7:3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

Re 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

"ALL THOSE VERSES ARE LITERAL"

Rev 13:11 � And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that " he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men"
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. (It clearly states "Them That Dwell On The Earth" not them that "dwelt" in rome )

I would like to ask you who was the other beast that commanded the world to worship the first beast that had the deadly wound that was healed, if it was Nero as you say, who was the second beast that healed him ?

Also, when did Nero recieve a deadly wound and when was it healed ?

You still have not provided any information that states that Nero caused All to recieve a mark in their right hand or forehead in order to buy or sell.

Your arguement is very weak and full of speculation and assumptions on your behalf. you have no written historical proof whatsoever.

What makes your assumption that the bible is not literal, accurate? that is only your misguided opinion.

I have only used verses straight from the bible, I don't have to twist things to attempt to prove my point, it is all there, crystal clear.



[edit on 15-10-2004 by Lastday Prophet]

Originally posted by bigdanprice

Right here we go again. The bible is not literal. Let me say that again incase you didn't understand... The Bible is not literal. It is full of metaphor and allegory.

Actually it differs on this. I have been tought, and learned, to interpret the Bible as literal as possible, before any metaphors or analogies are made. So this does go both ways. I have kinda glanced over this thread, so I do not know if this has been gone into, but if anyone is making refernce to the Verichips as the Mark of the Beast, remember that it is 1/3 of man that receives it to be able to but and trade, if it gets to the point where they would put it in everyone, this takes this theory out the window.

Where in the bible does it say that 1/3 will take the chip/mark ?

Anyone find it interesting that in Revelation it talks about being beheaded for the witness of Jesus and the word of God, and islam is showing us that they have no problem beheading people?

It's closer than anyone can imagine.

[edit on 15-10-2004 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by Byrd

Welp, if you'll check, you STILL haven't talked to a preterist. I'm Wiccan, actually.

I apologize, you were linking us to a Preterist site, therefore I assumed that you where showing that this was your view of prophecy.

Originally posted by Byrd

Never heard that, but it still doesn't change much. I'm basing my observations on current Biblical scholars and historians who have access to a whole thundering lot of material that Luther, Wesley, and Calvin didn't have. They are the ones who are saying that it means Rome.

Most current biblical scholars seem to believe in the Futurist point of view, most of what is being said here is exactly that. The belief in rapture, a ONE PERSON Anti-Christ, and the rebuilding of the Jewish temple, are Jesuit Futurist interpritation.

Luther, Wesley, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox and others believed that the FIRST beast was Rome, and the description does fit. It had ten horns or tribes, 3 where hunted into non-existence, and so on. The little horn with the eyes like a man, according to them is the station of the Pope (the Holy See).

As mentioned in your link this also fits with the 666 numbering system, �because the Latin title to the Pope of Rome is "Vicarious Filii Dei" (which, in English, means "Vicar of the Son of God"). When you add up the Roman numeral value of this Latin Title, it totals 666�.


Here check this quote from this link:

217.160.244.200...

John Wesley founded the Methodist Church in England in the 1700s. Like most other Protestants in his day, he had absolutely no interest in the speculative fancies of Jesuit Futurism. In the 1750s, as Wesley was studying prophecy, he realized the 1,260-year period would soon end. In 1754, he published his much-respected New Testament with Explanatory Notes. After applying the first beast of Revelation 13:1-10 to the papacy, he contemplated the rise of the second beast. Underneath verse 11, John Wesley wrote, "Another . . . beast . . . But he is not yet come, though he cannot be far off; for he is to appear at the end of the forty-two months of the first beast. And he had two horns like a lamb-a mild, innocent appearance" (John Wesley, Notes on Revelation, 1754. p. 457).

The first beast was wounded in 1798, when Napoleon took Pope Pius VI a prisoner and he died in Paris in captivity.

The US wrote its Declaration of Independence in 1776.

Pretty good guess from a guy that wrote this 22 years before the US wrote its Declaration of Independence, and 44 years prior to the wounding of the First beast, eh?

Especially when he did not have access to all that, �thundering lot of material�, that the current guys have.

When people can make guesses that are that accurate, maybe there is something to what they are saying, wouldn�t you agree?

IF you do not believe me look it up in the Horae Apocalpticae, in the volume of the history of Apocalyptic Interpretation, E.B Elliot traces back the teaching of every major Christian author that wrote on the subject of the end times. Check for yourself what they believed.

Originally posted by Byrd

Well, I'd say that it wasn't losing its morals. If you'll recall, the orignal morals for this Christian country included:
* slavery is good/acceptable
* no education for women
* no rights for women
* abortions were done in secret and if it wasn't possible to abort, babies were simply killed in the woods
* children were sold to tradesmen
* marrying little girls of 11-13 is okay
* only rights for white males who owned land
* it's okay to kill the Indians and steal their lands
* beating your wife or child is an approved social response
(etc, etc.)

Now, in my estimation that sort of morality isn't good for people and it's not something that I think is particularly good for society. I don't think it's particularly healthy, either. And I could go on with a nice long list of things that were considered "good and moral" many years before that which wouldn't sit well with people.

So, I'd say it was gaining better morals rather than losing morals, though I know many will disagree.

Furthermore, I think in your eagerness to prove the US is the "second beast," that you've neglected the REST of the verse:

The problem I have with this besides it being not entirely true is this: this country has in fact become not better, just more politically correct. There are things that will never be acceptable to Christians, because their God expressly forbids it, and there are things that are allowed that do not seem fair or just to men.

All I can say on this is that if you bought the Mona Lisa tomorrow and decided to repaint her over in a bathing suit, you own it, and can do what you will with it. Same thing here, according to our Bible God made man, and even if things may not seem fair to us men, in Gods eyes he can do with us as he pleases. It drives me nuts that unbelievers keep trying to apply men�s ideal of justice to God.


As far as the rest of your post, its pointless, since much of this may be things that are to happen as time progresses and we become more and more of the Dragon and less of the Lamb.

@lastday prophet
I refer you to my signature image.

Please read the Roman historian Tacitus... I am not making huge leaps of faith here there are hundreds of sources to back me up. Go to google and type 'nero revelation' and you will see. I personally think its you thats speculating, your only source of information is the bible which you are twisting to fit your own madcap ideas. You have picked up on a few points and chosen to forget the rest of the evidence, eg the seven churches are all in the ancient world.

We have come down to an ideological point here, you believe that the bible is the literal word of God. I believe it is allegory and metaphor created to control and futher peoples political ambitions and ideas. I can see us going back and forth on this one with no resolution. The ultimate test will be wether the world ends... I wait with baited breath.

[edit on 16-10-2004 by bigdanprice]

dbrandt: Beheading has been going on forever....nothing new there

As to all the arguing about the bible being literal.....no on can even prove any of it is real or valid

@lady v, I agree. But which is the more probable explanation, political allegory, or a load of freaky sheet going off in the ancient roman world?

bigdanprice, I have provided you with much more concrete evidence confirming my belief than you have. All you have done is speculated. All you have to do is provide me with "ONE" historical document that clearly states that Nero,
(1) Called down fire from Heaven
(2) Was killed and ressurected
(3) Had a partner, the Second Beast who also worked miracles and called down fire from Heaven.
(4) Ruled over ten Kings that had no Kingdom, these can't be Kingdoms that he ruled over for it clearly states they had no Kingdom but ruled as Kings.
(5) Caused All to recieve a mark " in" their right hand or forehead that allowed people to buy or sell.

I know for a fact that you cannot produce "ONE" document to prove ANY of the five points above, and don't send me to another site to look for something that does not exist. Post the document to back up your assumptions.

I have proven that the technology of today has produced a mark that is placed in the right hand or forehead and that it is being used for buying and can easily be used for selling, this is proof that you can see, touch and feel not speculation.
On the back of the dollar it is clearly states the agenda for a One World Goverment in which the Anti-Christ will rule over.

The Bible proves itself to be far more reliable than the historical documents you refer to.

These "FACTS" alone are astounding:
(1) The Bible fortold of a Mark to be given to the followers of the Beast
(2) The Bible fortold of a One World Goverment
(3) The Bible fortold that the time of the mark would be like the days of Sodom
(4) Where the Mark would be placed
(5) How the mark would be used
(6) That people would be warned not to take the mark, but that many would

The best location for the Digital Angel Chip is in the right hand or forehead
The Digital Angel Chip is currently being used for buying, but can also be used for selling.
This Chip is placed "IN" the right hand or forehead exactly as described in the Bible..
These are Facts not speculation like you have offered.
I would think that you are the one that needs to do a little research, I have provided you with facts, you have not provided "ONE" peice of documentation that backs up your misguided interpretations and assumptions. If you have the documents, "Post Them" I do not want to hear anymore of your excuses or deceptions, Post the facts if you have any. You can't for they don' exist.

Sorry to block up the board but I have a point to prove, please read this carefully and you may begin to appreciate what I am saying. This is an equal look at all interpretations. I hope it adds to the disscussion and doesn,t continue the slanging match. The following is from wilko encyclopedia

Major Schools of Interpretation
There are three main schools of thought in how the symbolism, imagery, and contents of the Book of Revelation should be interpreted.

The Biblical prophecy school of thought holds that the contents of Revelation, especially when interpreted in conjunction with the Book of Daniel and other eschatological sections of the Bible, constitute a prophecy of the end times. This school can be further subdivided into the preterite view, which sees the book concerned with 1st century events, the futurist view, which applies all the events in the book into the end times; and the historicist view, which regards the book as spanning history from the first century through the second coming.

The historical-critical approach, which became dominant among critical scholars of religion since the end of the 18th century, attempts to understand Revelation within the genre of apocalyptic literature, which was popular in both Jewish and Christian tradition since the Babylonian diaspora, following the pattern of the Book of Daniel. There is further information on these topics in the entries on higher criticism and apocalyptic literature.
Recently, aesthetic and literary modes of interpretation focus on Revelation as a work of art and imagination, viewing the imagery as symbolic depictions of timeless truths and the victory of good over evil.
The interpretation facing most denial is that John was an aging preacher, facing his own death and indulging in a hallucinogenic drug called Wormwood. His outlook facing his own death creates the darkness of his vision. Since this is a very attractive view to those selling on the urgency of Christianization, it found support for the book's canonization in the otherwise hope-inspiring and uplifting outlook introduced by the central figure of the New Testament, Jesus.
These schools of thought are not mutually exclusive, and many Christians adopt a combination of these approaches in a manner they find most meaningful. However, certain tendencies may be observed. The biblical prophecy school of thought is popular today among many American Protestant fundamentalists (nearly exclusively so) and among evangelicals, who also find value in the other approaches. Members of more mainline and liberal churches, on the other hand, tend to prefer the historical-critical and aesthetic approaches. Moreover, Catholic and Orthodox churches have delimited their own specific positions on Revelation.


Interpretative Views of Revelation as Biblical Prophecy

The Preterite View
The view of Preterism holds that the contents of Revelation constitute a prophecy of events that were fulfilled in the 1st century. This view depends critically on an early date of Revelation, c. 68, since any later date makes the "prophecy" post-date the events prophesied. Even accepting that date leaves a narrow margin of 1-2 years before the fulfilment occurs.

Preterite interpretations generally identify Jerusalem as "the beast", the persecutor of the Church, "Babylon", the "Mother of Harlots", etc. They see Armageddon as God's judgment on the Jews, carried out by the Roman army.

The Futurist View
The futurist view assigns all of the prophecy to some future time, shortly before the second coming. Futurist interpretations generally predict a 3 1/2 year period of intense persecution, after (or before) which the "Antichrist" (An incarnation of Satan) proclaims himself the Messiah and sets up a kingdom in Jerusalem, from which he conducts a campaign to take over the world and stamp out Christianity. Some variants of this interpretation portray Israeli Jews as collaborators with the Antichrist; Pat Robertson was sharply criticized for actually stating that "The Antichrist is probably a Jew alive in Israel today."

The futurist view, as such, was first proposed by two Catholic writers, Lacunza and Ribera. Lacunza wrote under the pen name "Ben Ezra", and his work was banned by the Catholic church. It has grown in popularity in the 19th and 20th centuries, so that today it is probably most readily recognized. Books about the "rapture" by authors like Hal Lindsey, and the more recent Left Behind novels (by Jerry Jenkins and Tim LaHae) and movies, have done much to popularize this school of thought.

The Historicist View
The historicist view regards the prophecy as spanning the time from the end of the first century through the second coming of Christ.

Politically, historicist interpretations apply the symbols of Revelation to the gradual division and collapse of the Roman Empire, the emergence of a divided Europe in the West and a Muslim empire in the East, and the collapse of the Eastern Empire while Europe attempts to re-unite and re-create the Roman Empire.

Ecclesiastically, historicist interpretations see Revelation as teaching that the Church would expand, despite persecution, until it "conquered" the whole world--but, in the process, would gradually evolve into an apostate system within which true Christians would be a persecuted minority. The apostate Church is associated with the symbols of the "Mother of Harlots" and with "Babylon". It is seen as an "Antichrist system" which exists for much of history, rather than expecting a single "Antichrist" in the last days, as futurist interpretations do.

According to historicist interpretations, the second coming of Christ occurs about the time that a partly-reunited Europe starts to wage war against Israel. This view is held mainly by conservative Protestant Christians. The exact constitution of this confederacy differs between interpretations: in some it is mainly composed of Eastern European countries, notably Russia; in others, Western European; some include England, while others suggest that England and former Commonwealth nations will oppose the confederacy. In all historicist interpretations, Christ defeats this confederacy, rescues Israel from certain destruction, judges apostate Christianity and vindicates the true believers, and sets up a kingdom on earth.

The earliest Christian writers adopted a historicist viewpoint, though at such an early date the distinction between historicist and futurist views was less pronounced. Historicist interpretations tend to be millenarian, emphasizing the literal reign of Christ on earth, and as that doctrine receded in importance, so too did the historicist focus in interpretation. Today, historicist interpretations are favored in the most ardently millenarian sects.

Some Protestant writers today use this school of interpretation as the foundation for an anti-Catholic polemic, but it should be noted that such is not an inherent property of historical interpretations. Many Catholic writers in the fourth and fifth centuries applied the notion of future apostasy to their own church, in various ways. Some argued that an apostasy would arise within the church. Others argued that this had already happened, and cited one or another sect which arose over some theological dispute. What differs between interpretations is the identity of the apostasy.



Historical-Critical Interpretation
The historical-critical interpretation takes as axiomatic some qualities that would be considered commonplaces in a non-Christian context, first of all that Revelation is a text, which is embodied and transmitted in manuscripts, which have their own histories. Such texts are subject to changes, such as miscopying, repetition of lines already entered, excision, interpolation or emendation. Motivations for such changes run the whole gamut of human motivations, and need also to be assessed in their historical context.

The acceptance of Revelation into the canon is itself the result of a historical process, essentially no different from the career of other texts. The eventual exclusion of other contemporary apocalyptic literature from the canon may throw light on the unfolding historical processes of what was officially considered orthodox, what was heterodox, what was even heretical.

The historical-critical interpretation cannot address two aspects of Revelation. It is not prepared to discuss aspects of divine inspiration of the original text, nor can it assess the book's relevance to the modern world. Interpretation of meanings and imagery are limited to what the historical author intended and what his contemporary audience inferred. These questions are difficult enough.

Thus, in the historical-critical approach, the symbolism of Revelation is to be understood entirely within its historical literary and social context. Critics study the conventions of apocalyptic literature and events of the 1st century to make sense of what the author may have intended. Neverthess, many interpretative questions remain. Is the structure of the book linear, resumptive, or thematic? How does the imagery relate to historical events? Did the author intend one or multiple meanings in the text?

The beast from the sea
Among many critics, the beast from the sea that had received plenitude of power from the dragon, or Satan, is actually the Roman Empire, or rather, the Emperor, its supreme representative.

The token of the beast with which its servants are marked is the image of the emperor on the coins of the realm. This seems to be the obvious meaning of the passage, that all business transactions, all buying and selling were impossible to them that had not the mark of the beast (Rev. 13:17). Against this interpretation it is objected that the Jews at the time of Jesus had no scruple in handling money on which the image of Caesar was stamped (Matt. 22:15-22). But it should be borne in mind that the horror of the Jews for the imperial images was principally due to the policy of Caligula. He confiscated several of their synagogues, changing them into heathen temples by placing his statue in them. He even sought to erect an image of himself in the Temple in Jerusalem (Josephus, Antiquities, 18.8.2).

Seven heads of the beast
The seven heads of the beast are seven Roman emperors. Five of them are said to be fallen. They are Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The year of Nero's death is 68. The text goes on to say "One is", namely Vespasian, 70-79. He is the sixth emperor. The seventh "is not yet come. But when he comes his reign will be short". Titus is meant, who reigned but two years (79-81). The eighth emperor is Domitian (81-96); He is identified with the beast. He is described as the one that "was and is not and shall come up out of the bottomless pit" (xvii, 8). In verse 11 it is added: "And the beast which was and is not: the same also is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into destruction".

All this sounds like oracular language. But the clue to its solution is furnished by a popular belief largely spread at the time. The death of Nero had been witnessed by few. Chiefly in the East a notion had taken hold of the mind of the people that Nero was still alive. Gentiles, Jews, and Christians were under the illusion that he was hiding himself, and as was commonly thought, he had gone over to the Parthians, the most troublesome foes of the empire. From there they expected him to return at the head of a mighty army to avenge himself on his enemies. The existence of a belief in a Nero redivivus is attested by Tacitus and Dio Chrysostom.

Many contemporaries of the author of this book believed Nero to be alive and expected his return. The author either shared their belief or utilized it for his own purpose. Nero had made a name for himself by his cruelty and licentiousness. The Christians in particular had reason to dread him. Under him the first persecution took place. The second occurred under Domitian. But unlike the previous one, it was not confined to Italy, but spread throughout the provinces. Many Christians were put to death, many were banished (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl., III, 17-19). In this way the Book of Revelation seems to regard Domitian as a second Nero, "Nero redivivus". Hence it describes him as "the one that was, that is not, and that is to return". Hence also he counts him as the eighth and at the same time makes him one of the preceding seven, viz. the fifth, Nero.

Note that pagan authors called Domitian a second Nero (calvus Nero, Juvenal. IV, 38). The popular belief concerning Nero's death and return seems to be referred to also in the passage (xiii, 3): "And I saw one of its heads as it were slain to death: and its death's wound was healed".


Ten horns of the beast
The ten horns are commonly explained as the vassal rulers under the supremacy of Rome. They are described as kings (basileis), here to be taken in a wider sense, that they are not real kings, but received power to rule with the beast. Their power, moreover, is but for one hour, signifying its short duration and instability (xvii, 17).


Number of the beast
Main article: Number of the Beast (numerology)
The beast is identified by the number 666 in the text (Rev 13:18). This is very likely an instance of gematria, an early form of Jewish mysticism. Its object is to conceal a name by substituting for it a cipher of equal numerical value to the letters composing it. When the name "Nero Caesar" is spelled with Hebrew letters as ���� ��� (NRWN QSR -- Hebrew is written without vowels.) Each letter has a corresponding numerical value. N=50, R=200, W=6 N=50, Q=100, S=60, R=200, resulting in the sum of 666.

Some Greek manuscripts of Revelation have a different number. Here the number is not 666, but 616. If Nero is alternatively spelled as NRW instead of NRWN you get 616; NRWN minus N(=50).
The beast from the land
The second beast, that from the land, the pseudoprophet whose office was to assist the beast from the sea, probably signifies the work of seduction carried on by apostate Christians. They endeavoured to make their fellow Christians adopt the heathen practices and submit themselves to the cultus of the Caesar. They are not unlikely the Nicolaitans of the seven Epistles. For they are there compared to Balaam and Jezebel seducing the Israelites to idolatry and fornication. The woman in travail is a personification of the synagogue or the church. Her first-born is Jesus, her other seed is the community of the faithful


Here are some other websites:
www.ccel.org...
www.mystae.com... www.forerunner.com...

I hope this is enough evidence. Please could you reciprocate.

I would also like to add that in Nero's day they did more "TRADING" than buying and selling. Today we almost exclusively buy or sell and have a chip that allows you to do so.

Don't mean to be obtuse but trading is buying and selling, I think you mean bartering, true. But in cities there were established currencies since the beginning of the Roman Republic.

All you have posted is a misguided attempt to explain something he has no understanding of. You or that post have not yet answered to my points, I asked you to provide specific documentation to support your claim. You have not done so but only posted someone else's misguided opinion, "NO FACTS" whatsoever.
It is a fact that the digital angel chip can be placed in your right hand or forehead and can be used for buying or selling. You have no FACTS, only someone else's opinion. Please post some facts !