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Is it impossible to debunk false flag operations?

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posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 01:22 PM
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In this thread, I'm particularly referring to the false flag operations contrived by TPTB behind the collective back of the masses. It appears to me that even when a prediction of such an event fails to come to pass, some choose to believe it's a matter of the elite going back on their plans as oppose to considering the event was never planned like they dreamt of in the first place. A recent example of this would be the continued belief in the supposed Olympics False Flag Operation -- some postulate the elite were forced to abandon their plans because a frightening number of posters on conspiracy forums caught on to them. On that matter, I'd genuinely like to hear from anyone who supported/still supports the Olympics False Flag theory, what sort of evidence would be required to make them consider that perhaps such a shady event was never in the works?

And in general, I'd like to know if it would be possible to prove similar predictions unfounded? It seems to me, people will always be able to fall back on the crutch of TPTB changing/retracting their plans, and as such, a conspiracy of this nature would have an infinite lifespan.

Is there really any way of proving them wrong?

To be clear, I'm not claiming to know with absolute certainty that the elite aren't at work. Would just like to know from a supporter's standpoint, if there was any piece of evidence that they believe would invalidate their theory, what would it be?




edit on 14-8-2012 by namine because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 01:29 PM
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posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to post by namine
 

excuse me waht is exactly tptb.
but if you are speaking about elites, unfortunately there is a proof crisis. the problem is that how to prove them.



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by maes2
reply to post by namine
 

excuse me waht is exactly tptb.
but if you are speaking about elites, unfortunately there is a proof crisis. the problem is that how to prove them.


The Power That be.

TPTB is another version of god which no one knows the boundary of it's power.

Deluded people use to scare people of some thing they don't know much about.

TPTB is the a word made by elites to scare people. They induce like they are always living and winning.
edit on 14-8-2012 by mideast because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by maes2
reply to post by namine
 

excuse me waht is exactly tptb.
but if you are speaking about elites, unfortunately there is a proof crisis. the problem is that how to prove them.

TPTB is an acronym for "The Powers That Be," or at least I think so.

But yes, you're correct - it refers to the elites.



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by namine
Is there really any way of proving them wrong?

To be clear, I'm not claiming to know with absolute certainty that the elite aren't at work. Would just like to know from a supporter's standpoint, if there was any piece of evidence that they believe would invalidate their theory, what would it be?




edit on 14-8-2012 by namine because: (no reason given)


Why we so concerned with "proving them wrong"? If you don't know with absolute certainty "that the elite aren't at work" how can you even begin to "prove them wrong"???

I'm honestly curious why there is this urgency to "prove" people wrong on things that have little effect on the physical world...

I'm on the fence with the Olympic false flag as I am with almost all of them.

However I'm not on the fence about "false-flags" being a real strategic thing that is possible in world shaping high profile events...

is it possible? yes, its it provable? Probably not. Is there any harm to speculate? As of yet I haven't seen any...

I think its a terminology problem honestly. People call FF event threads prophetic or predicting the future I merely see them for what they are...SPECULATION based on a factual concept ie: "The False Flag".

As far as "proving them wrong" you probably won't be able to do that because you would have to change the reality that a "false flag" event is a real strategic process that has at the very least been planned out on paper by the "elite" or "TPTB".




edit on 14-8-2012 by Sly1one because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 01:48 PM
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I think this is why we did not see false flag in olympics. because people are getting aware. the awareness of people will be a huge barrier for them. especially after sep11 people are more aware. we are witnessing actions from nations that are rooted in their awareness. the situation in the mideast and the 99% uprising of USA, .....
anyhow power is in hand of nations. without people they do mean nothing.



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 01:57 PM
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There's no way of debunking false flag operations.

It's a bit like religions*. You can idly speculate. You can create the most likely scenario from known information. You can rule out elements from the data as being irrelevant or impossible. However, ultimately, the only people that really know who plant bombs &c arethe people who actually plant bombs, shoot kids in the back of the head or dump quantities of L.S.D. in American lakes in the 1960s. Or didn't, as the case may be.

People can say that their prayers, their raising the issue before hand to alert the general public (as well as the TPTB that they know) and so on, or their rubbing two crystals together to create a crystal net of magickal protection over the whole world, stopped these false flags from happening but, again, they don't really know anything for certain. They'd like it to be the case, but they honestly don't know.

Nobody is really wholly certain of anything in life. Religion; what happens when we die; why we're here now, on earth at this moment in time; why thatgirl left; what parents really thought of you and so on. We think we do because it's important for us to make sense of the world, especially things that - for whatever reason - mean something to us - but we don't.

Conspiracy theories rest on a few things:

#1 the need to make sense of an often confusing, unfathomable and frightening world around us, often by sharing this need to understand with others
#2 people needing to either show-off supposed knowledge to people more overwhelmed than they are (which helps the first person make more sense of the world through hierarchies and 'pecking order'
#3 the need to exploit people in some way, this might also be #2 but can also be for some kind of financial gain or even for the lulz

It might be a combination or all of #1, #2 and #3. I'm honest enough to admit I'm probably #1, #2 and #3 depending on my medication status at both conscious and sub-conscious levels.

Anyone that says anything else is more delusional than I am.


*not my religion, though. That's not for debate.



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 02:04 PM
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Originally posted by Merriman Weir
There's no way of debunking false flag operations.
It's a bit like religions*.

maybe this is because the real monotheistic religions have been altered by elites. unless what does anti_christ mean!?

edit on 14-8-2012 by maes2 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 02:09 PM
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reply to post by namine
 


It all comes down to simple logic. You can not disprove what didn't happen. This was the thinking behind the witch trials etc.. they put the burden of proving you didn't do somthing that didn't happen on the accused, as failing to prove you didn't do somthing that didn't happen meant the stake and the fire. As there can't be any evidence proving somthing didn't happen that didn't happen, you are at their mercy, and must admit guilt, or burn for denying it but being unable to disprove you didn't do somthing that didn't happen.

So for example.

Pete is walking down the road, when the local minister and constible arrest him for witch craft. As soon as the acusation is made he is guilty until proven innocent. As such they put pete to trial, where he must disprove the charge of witch craft, he knows he never practiced witch craft, but how do you disprove the charge? Witch craft never occured, so there is no evidence to present, as there is none to be gathered, as no action ever took place. So all you can do is try to argue your innocence. Which leads to the " I nevver practiced witch craft" arguement. However this is not enough to disprove the charge, as there is no evidence to present to disprove your charge.

This was the way law was practiced for many hundreds of years, for the reason of forcing you to admit to any and all charges against you.

This is one of the biggest reasons for Americas system of laws, innocent until proven guilty, and the burden of proving charges falls on the accuser instead of the defendant. So as to have an actual fair system.



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by namine
 


I would argue after the Olympics that TPTB would not advertise a false flag so blatantly as they did in the run up to the games.

Yes, we should have known this beforehand, but we live and learn.

A false flag of somekind to be blamed on Iran is an almost certainty before this year is out. Where it happens, and how it is carried out we will not know but we can be rest assured Iran will be blamed for it to justify another war on the people.



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 02:57 PM
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reply to post by Sly1one
 


Maybe I phrased the post wrong. It's not so much about proving them wrong as it as about finding out what, in their own opinion, would prove them wrong? In this case, a failed prediction did nothing, and only continued to fuel the theories in some cases. I'm merely interested in the mindset. You are right, people are free to speculate as they please, and the false flag phenomenon is one I'm aware exists. My question, for instance, is what would make you lean towards one side from your current position? Particularly, the side against a false flag operation having been planned for the Olympics? For me, amongst other things, the fact that the predicted event never occurred is questionable -- some people set up their beliefs in such a way they'd win regardless of the outcome, i.e. whether their prediction turned out to be right or wrong.

In any event, perhaps it's like one of the posters above suggested, a belief system akin to religion.



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by inverslyproportional
 


So in this case, you're suggesting people take on a "the elite are guilty until proven innocent" approach?

That wouldn't be right, would it?



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by namine
 


I am saying that the whole arguement is meant to go the way the accusser wants it to. Even if they were inclined to respond, how can the powers that be( pete) disprove the charge, when nothing happened, and the person accussing ( the witch hunters) have already presented them as guilty by making the claim.

Instead of the accuser providing evidence( that can't exist as nothing has happened yet) they present them as guilty, and demand they provide proof of not doing somthing that didn't happen in the first place.

This is the reason for Americas legal systems workings, many many people were convicted in old school english courts etc for the inability to prove they didn't do somthing that never happened.

For example, you are working for the illuminati trying to killl us all, now prove your not or your guilty.

This is the entire flawed logic behind the false flag premise. Instead of rightly proving they are guilty. Through evidence, they make a charge, and demand you prove it false or your guilty.

As in the above example, there is no evidence that your not illuminati, as the only evidence there could be would. be proving you are. As being illuminati would leave a evidence trail. Not being illuminati doesn't leave a evidence trail as no action took place. It is false logic.

ETA. Only by an action taking place can there be any evidence of an action taking place. if I say a meteor will impact your haouse tomorrow, and then say you must prove it won't, how can you prove it won't when there isn't evven a meteor to look at in the first place. So there won't be any evidence to present, as there is no evidence to be found. I just frased my accusation in such a way as to make the burden of proof appear to be in your court, even though I never provided any, I merely made up a claim and pointed at you, than demanded you prove me wrong or else I'm right.
edit on 14-8-2012 by inverslyproportional because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by inverslyproportional
 


I understand what you're saying and I think we're in agreement that the onus of proof should be with those making the claim (accusers). In your example, you've accused me of working with the Illuminati and it would be down to you to provide proof. Similarly, in the false flag scenario, those alleging something sinister was meant to happen should be the ones to prove it?

But that's not what I'm asking here. I'm curious if there is anything that they think would convince them otherwise? And what that would be? Or are they certain there's nothing that could prove them wrong.
edit on 14-8-2012 by namine because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-8-2012 by namine because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 07:38 PM
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reply to post by namine
 


OIC, sadly probably not, I don't even read those threads anymore as there is never any proof other than "a feeling" or " I had a dream" or the ever impressive " I was channeling.."

So in other words, they convince themselves beyond any sense or logic being able to sway them, that they are right, and you are "asleep" or "blind.." because you can't see it.

In short I blame schizophrenia, or paranoid delusional disorders, or just plain crazy and or weird beyond belief.

That just my opinionated opinion though, so take it with some salt, than make up your own mind.



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