Super rich pay no taxes

Originally posted by beezzer

A fair tax, a flat tax would eliminate all of this.

Will never happen. A flat tax across the board would essentially eliminate the class warfare garbage which is so powerful in this country.

As a side note the bulk of those super-rich people are proponents of socialist agendas.

The plebes who think they are battling for some imaginary social justice are just playing right into what the super wealthy have wanted all along.

A powerful government that can redistribute wealth at will only helps those who wield influence over that government and they just so happen to be the super-wealthy.

All these occupiers and marching wannabe guerrillas are just fighting for the elite and they're largely too short-sighted to see it.

reply to post by poet1b

It is clear that the only thing tax cuts for the super rich produce is more fraudulent business practices.

It's not clear to me how or why tax cuts for the super rich produce fraudulent business practices. The source does not explain the basis for such a phenomenon either.

Would you elaborate why tax cuts for the super rich produce more fraudulent business practices?

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by beezzer

 

The GOP gets blamed because they are the ones who wrote the laws that allow the super rich to avoid paying taxes.

We need to do what was done after WW II, and start taxing the super rich up to their eye brows until the huge debts created by the free market scam is wiped out.

Any working person smart enought to look after their own welfare should support high taxes on the rich.

A flat tax would be fair for all.

But the left refuses to be fair. They want to punish the rich and justify the theft by taking it all.

And this nonsense about the right allowing the tax laws is bullspit! What have the democrats done the past 6 years?

Spend and whine and spend and whine and complain that taxes aren't high enough.

edit on 14-8-2012 by beezzer because: (no reason given)

you have been going on and on about this flat tax idea now for a while,
as someone who holds an interest in maths,
and someone who questions this FAIRNESS you talk about,

can you rationally tell me why ge and exon mobil payed zero taxes?

and how is it fair that some one earning $100,000,000 dollars pays a flat tax, say 10%
and some one on $100 dollars pays a flat tax, say 10%

but $90 is not enough to Survive on
where as $90,000,000 is more than enough to survive on.

how is it fair to tax people who cant survive on their income,
so they can survive less?

america is at war,
during times of war tax rates on the higest earners have been above 60%

are the rich not patriots?
are corperations NOT AMERICAN?

xploder

Originally posted by XPLodER

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by beezzer

 

The GOP gets blamed because they are the ones who wrote the laws that allow the super rich to avoid paying taxes.

We need to do what was done after WW II, and start taxing the super rich up to their eye brows until the huge debts created by the free market scam is wiped out.

Any working person smart enought to look after their own welfare should support high taxes on the rich.

A flat tax would be fair for all.

But the left refuses to be fair. They want to punish the rich and justify the theft by taking it all.

And this nonsense about the right allowing the tax laws is bullspit! What have the democrats done the past 6 years?

Spend and whine and spend and whine and complain that taxes aren't high enough.

edit on 14-8-2012 by beezzer because: (no reason given)

you have been going on and on about this flat tax idea now for a while,
as someone who holds an interest in maths,
and someone who questions this FAIRNESS you talk about,

can you rationally tell me why ge and exon mobil payed zero taxes?

and how is it fair that some one earning $100,000,000 dollars pays a flat tax, say 10%
and some one on $100 dollars pays a flat tax, say 10%

but $90 is not enough to Survive on
where as $90,000,000 is more than enough to survive on.

how is it fair to tax people who cant survive on their income,
so they can survive less?

america is at war,
during times of war tax rates on the higest earners have been above 60%

are the rich not patriots?
are corperations NOT AMERICAN?

xploder

Everyone needs to pay their fair share. It is wrong when GE and Exon pay zero taxes. It is wrong when someone making 20,000 year pays zero taxes.

Fair means that everyone pays.

Or do we reward people who make below a certain amount?
Punish people who make above a certain amount?

reply to post by beezzer

Everyone needs to pay their fair share. It is wrong when GE and Exon pay zero taxes. It is wrong when someone making 20,000 year pays zero taxes.

proportionally the person with 90 struggles more than the person with 90,000,000

Fair means that everyone pays.

even people who earn 10$ or 8$ or 2$ ?

Or do we reward people who make below a certain amount?
Punish people who make above a certain amount?

you frame the debate in terms like REWARD, is 90$ ie not enough to live on considered a REWARD to you?
and you frame PUNISHMENT as the rich side of the equation $90,000,000

when without society to consume products or services, the $90,000,000 would not exist,
so before you can be a success, you must live in a society,
and succeed in that society, what is so wrong with giving back to that society?

my point is if america is really a Christian nation, or a least a nation with a large percentage of Christian souls within it,

how can the selfishness of the rich and the charity of Christianity work within the same society,

are you rich and selfish? and therfore not christian?
or are charitable and rich and therefore a good christian?

you are either following christs example of charity to the needy,
or only interested in self and in greed,

which is it?
or are you in the mind that the poor of your country are of little coincedence to you as long as you are rich?

xploder

reply to post by XPLodER


Charity is a beautiful thing. When it's vouluntary. When it's forced, then it stops becoming charity and becomes theft.

Again, shouldn't everyone pay their fair share? I agree that GE, Exon et al should not get away with the loopholes that exist.

But I also believe that those who do not currently pay SHOULD PAY.

When the wealthy and middle class complian about paying taxes, no-one listens. But if EVERYONE paid into the system, then our voices would be unified.

Not quite off-topic, but I'm a little surprised that with all the accountants and every other available tool, only 1 1/2% paid zero taxes.

Originally posted by spinalremain
Reply to post by beezzer

 

Not being able to repair a mess at a fast enough rate is radically different than actually creating the mess.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

You might want to do a little bit of research into which party adds the most write offs for the wealthy to the tax code. Better yet...research which party actually has the most wealthy members in the Congress.

reply to post by XPLodER


The problem isnt what taxes poor people pay on income, they more then make up for that percentage wise in special taxes, the problem is that the working class gets nothing back for their money.

The way the republicans have twisted the laws, the fed gov only serves the interests of the super rich.

For the tiny amount of money the super rich pay to the fed gov., they get trillions in services.

I think the super rich pay no taxes because of all the 'shelters and loopholes' they have at their disposal. I'm not sure how it works but it seems that no matter how much they have to pay in taxes there are many ways around it. Eliminate those; encourage them to keep their money and their jobs in their own country, and maybe a flat tax for all.
I have no problem with rich people being rich, usually they have earned it and that is what America is all about; rewarding hard work, right? Right..

reply to post by AmericanDaughter


I don't see the super rich as earning their money through hard work, but gaining it through ruthless and fraudulent business practices.

As the US has sank ever deeper on debt, the rich have gotten richer,

Thus they prove themselves to be giant parasites, and not contributors to economic growth.

reply to post by poet1b


This is absolutely true.

Since 1986 US worker productivity is up almost 500%, but wages are flat to 1981 levels.

All of those gains went into Wall Street's pockets, who used that money to buy our government and draft legislation killing any competition in its crib.

Food, energy, housing, fuel and medicine are also between 3 and 5 times more expensive than they were in 1986.

None of those gains went into our pockets. In fact --- when our 401K's were up, a manufactured crisis was created to divert 30% of that into the pockets of the banks.

People scream for free-market capitalism, but that isn't what we have at all.

Example: medicine and health insurance, run as a business, requires a quarterly growth rate to profitability of roughly twice the current rate of inflation. How is this accomplished? By creating sick consumers with lots of fat, type 2 diabetes and heart disease. Healthcare, properly, should require quarterly growth in HEALTH; a reduction in the former, and an increase in life expectancy, mobility, QoL and so on. We should measure our success in healthcare by driving infant mortality lower, not by driving profit higher.

reply to post by 0zzymand0s


Helper, with our current levels of productivity, combined with most families being supported by two incomes, we could all be working 20 hour weeks, and still be more productive than we were 40 years ago.

Combined with the fact that most of our spending is a result of planned obsolescence, the amount of hours we wind up working is ridiculous.

What we need is to elect some DC pols with The right stuff to write new bankruptcy less to let people walk away from their debts free and clear, and tell the bankers to sit on it and spin.

everyone talks about being fair and blah blah blah.

Many of you do not really see the fact of the matter.

If you even look at simple things as games or video games. Especially if you play a resource video game. whoever is more successful at getting resources and wealth has power over the rest of the players. It gets to a certain point that the gap in wealth is so great that the most powerful player cannot be defeated so people quit and go to another game. if people do not quit all the powerful players has to do is set it up so the other players cannot surpass them in power and wealth.

This is exactly what has happened in the USA/world. Certain people have acquired too many of the marbles to the point where it would be nice if we could walk away and start all over. It would not be so bad IF these people would lose their wealth and influence based on their decisions but they use laws and exploits to keep themselves up top. Like evading taxes and putting themselves in a position where they can claim they essential to our country. ie job creators... when in reality if those companies fail/rich people fail a vaccuum is created that can give opportunity for everyone to have a chance at succeeding.

As it stands now that will not happen so I really do not understand how someone who has more money that they can spend in a life time is not be expect to pay a bigger percentage of taxes if they will not feel it but people who pay the same amount of tax will feel it. The scales are soo messed up that something needs to be done.

Why do people quit playing monopoly?? because on player gets all the money and the other players have to stop playing. The sad part is that in real life you can't stop playing and start over. You literally have to reset things but that would be unfair to those who have been successful but currently it is equally unfair to those who do not even get a chance.


Business has created legislation to make sure they stay on top. try to start a business and you have all sorts requesites you need to start a business right.. the funny thing is that most of those requesits did no exist when the big dogs of business started out so they were at an advantage. Those rich people like all those laws because it aids them in staying on top. You cannot use the same exploit they used to get ahead.

If any of you have played any kind of game like monopoly or even video games base on resources or other type of advancement you would realize this.


The rich need to be taxed more. Not because they need to be punished but because if they do not either they take dominion over us completely OR we just die. yes we just die. If in my home the only person who eats is the person who can win a free for all brawl i would win everyday and eventually my wife and pets would die all they get are scraps. if they want me to share.. i would respond but if I eat less who will create scaps for you to eat?? You need me to make scraps! If i share food I make less scraps!!! this is essentially what is happening in our country.

Government was supposed to keep things fair except very early on the rich realized this and hijacked our goverment.

Originally posted by CALGARIAN
I heard GE as a company, didn't pay any Taxes.

Very possibly true. Martin Lockheed and Boeing actually got a refund.

Defense Contractor Budgets

60% of their contracts are defense-related.
Meaning directly paid for by private income tax funding.

reply to post by votan


If you study history, most dynasties only last three generations. While these dynasties rise and fall, humanity consistently succeeds in improving our rights and life styles. We can turn our economy around. The biggest problem is waking people up to the reality that free market economics does not work.

reply to post by poet1b


Yeah, and aren't we on the third generation of this tyranny trend already? The tail end of it, hopefully.

reply to post by queenannie38


We are kinda around 1936, in the cycle, although they had FDR back then, and people were smart enough to see the bankers for what they are, sleazy con artists. People supported high taxes on the rich and strong worker rights, had immigration shutdown.

If enough of the people smarten up enough, start seeing these investment bankers as the crooks they are, write and enforce laws properly, get local government off small businesses backs, our economy could revive itself rather quickly.

Right now everyone is a con artist, because laws against fraudulent business practices are not being enforced.

reply to post by beezzer

No. My argument is that the democrats squeal like stuck pigs and THEN do nothing to change the current laws.

As I recall it, Obama tried to do plenty, and was thwarted at every turn. The Republicans would have refused to hand him a tissue if his nose was bleeding!

The "mess" was not started by the Democrats...it was started about 100 years ago by the Federal Reserve, and by implementing Social Securty and Income Taxes.

It's an unsustainable system.

Beezzer, you seem to be quite adamant about calling the Democrats whiners and squealers...you are also a highly intelligent and worthwhile member of ATS; but sometimes your *golf claps* are, well, pretty much enough for someone interested in really exploring these issues to just walk away, hands flung skyward....

is there no use at all? Do you want to understand better where the Dems are coming from, and what they have tried to do? Or is your motive just to mock, ridicule, name-call, and insult?

I want to learn how both sides think. I'm unaffiliated with either party, and as hard as I try, I still don't quite get all the political rhetoric. There is a middle ground. Why is everyone not seeking it?

When I see denigrating language and gestures, I begin to devalue the member's integrity and intentions.

reply to post by poet1b


The fact that they paid no taxes is a red herring. You need to take a look at their tax returns to see what they did with their money.

If you don't like the tax system, reform it, don't blame people for taking advantage of the opportunities that are available to them, it is childish.

The vast majority of the wealth of these people is in the form of investments, money which was already taxed when it was earned. Throughout the year, competent investment managers seek to neutralize the tax burden on portfolios - and not for only the super rich, but for everyone who has an investment portfolio. They purposefully buy investments throughout the year who they anticipate will decline. They sell when they do and create a capital loss, which offsets the capital gains on the investments that did well. There are also tax free municipal bonds, investments that are going to become increasingly popular as states and cities need to jack up their interest rates to attract investments to stave off going broke.

Take those strategies, add charitable contributions, and other legal options and you can continue to get richer while having a net zero or close to net zero tax obligation.

If I had a ton of money and confronted with a big tax bill, that after employing strategies, I knew could not get any lower, the first thing I would ask my advisor is how much would I have to give to charity to net the tax obligation to $zero. In most cases the amount of the contribution would be larger than the tax bill. I would make the donation regardless, to support things I support rather than toss it into the sink hole which is the government.

These folks did pay taxes and a ton of them, they were simply off-set by offsetting deductions.

Just wait until the US has to suck all of the money out of the system that Obama has pumped into it to support his foolish stimulus and bailout plans. Interest rates will go through the roof to attract the investment. The only way to pull money out is to get folks to buy bonds. Remember Jimmy Carter and his 20% interest rates? Folks with money got very rich off of Carter's idiotic economic policy. Folks are going to get fantastically rich off this administration's foolish policy.

How nice is it to take $100M buy a government guaranteed bond that is delivering you 10%+ interest rates? Sit back, take no risk, bring in $10M/year guaranteed and tax free. The effective return is obviously higher when the avoided taxes are tacked on top of the 10% rate.

You may not like the law, but its the law and castigating people for following the law is childish.