DHS places new order for 750 million rounds

Somewhere above 220,000 employees fall under the purview of DHS. Some are going to be support and admin of course, but a billion rounds is only about 4,000 rounds per employee. (corrected math)

Say only 25% of the employee force has to qualify with weapons, that is still 60,000 people. 50 rounds of practice per year per person, and about 10 in a magazine to carry on duty, and you have a need for 600,000 hollow points, and 3 million practice rounds each year. Hopefully the ones that really are in the mix are shooting a lot more than 50 rounds of training per year, so the numbers published seem just about right.

As far as hollow points being banned by the Geneva Convention.... that was a stupid move. We use hollow points because it gives more knockdown power and less chance of pass-through to unintended targets. A practice round would actually be MORE DANGEROUS in a LEO or domestic situation, because you might hit someone behind your intended target, or ricochet and hit just about anyone. I use an "extreme frangible" in my carry guns, because it is even more dangerous to the intended target, and less dangerous to everyone else. Air Marshall's supposedly use something similar to avoid damaging an airplane if they have to fire it onboard.

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


I went through the official PDF and it is a hell of a lot of ammo for training. Notably, plenty of 12 ga. varieties. Lots of #00 Buck and Slugs which is very handy in a riot gun.

Just for Reference here is the DHS org chart. Utimately all of the following agencies report up through the line

U.S. CUSTOMS & BORDER PROTECTION
U.S. CITIZENSHIP & IMMIGRATION SERVICES
U.S. IMMIGRATION & CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT
U.S. COAST GUARD
FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY
U.S. SECRET SERVICE
TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION

www.dhs.gov...

reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

Some will argue that you should "train" with the same round that you will carry in your duty magazines. Expensive and unnecessary as long as you shoot the same weight methinks.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by CosmicCitizen

 

If they're preparing for civil war against the American people, who will be using the rounds? The only way the government can fight the people for more than a week or two, is if they bring in foreign troops, and foreign troops have their own ammo. If they are planning to use Federal Troops, then they're effectively buying millions of rounds of ammunition that will wind up being used against them, LOL! The military will side with the uprising after a few weeks when they realize the government is corrupt. Local law enforcement will be split pretty evenly on both sides at first, but they'll be so out-gunned, that they'll have to come around to the side of the uprising or be killed quickly.

So, these millions of rounds had better be for training, because anything else would be counter-productive to their intentions. It would be nice of them to buy us all that ammo though!

That's my sentiment exactly .. It amazes me that people think their own military, their own sons/daughters/husbands/wives/mothers.. would turn on them is just absolute nonsense.. you see it in the middle east to a point but that's a very different landscape with tribal sects that have been fighting each other for centuries in the first place.. and even then you see places like Syria where entire sections of their military are joining the resistance ( aka..the people ) .. but the USA isn't Syria.. the government would not be able to sustain something like that because it's armed forces ARE the people.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Somewhere above 220,000 employees fall under the purview of DHS. Some are going to be support and admin of course, but a billion rounds is only about 4 rounds per employee.

Say only 25% of the employee force has to qualify with weapons, that is still 60,000 people. 50 rounds of practice per year per person, and about 10 in a magazine to carry on duty, and you have a need for 600,000 hollow points, and 3 million practice rounds each year. Hopefully the ones that really are in the mix are shooting a lot more than 50 rounds of training per year, so the numbers published seem just about right.

As far as hollow points being banned by the Geneva Convention.... that was a stupid move. We use hollow points because it gives more knockdown power and less chance of pass-through to unintended targets. A practice round would actually be MORE DANGEROUS in a LEO or domestic situation, because you might hit someone behind your intended target, or ricochet and hit just about anyone. I use an "extreme frangible" in my carry guns, because it is even more dangerous to the intended target, and less dangerous to everyone else. Air Marshall's supposedly use something similar to avoid damaging and airplane if they have to fire it onboard.

edit on 13-8-2012 by getreadyalready because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-8-2012 by getreadyalready because: (no reason given)

True! So even if it was 50% of DHS employees being trained, then that ammo is literally insignificant...

The amount really wouldn't even be enough to significantly distribute to ATS members when the SHTF....

At the firing range, using issued rounds, it is not uncommon for me to go through 400 - 600 rounds every other day, by myself. That is using a side arm, M9 and the M1911.

I go through about 2000 rounds using a rifle.

Originally posted by CosmicCitizen
reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

 

Some will argue that you should "train" with the same round that you will carry in your duty magazines. Expensive and unnecessary as long as you shoot the same weight methinks.

Then what are the hollow points for? Lol

plus getreadyalready made a great point in first post on this page.

reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

Sorry but that is closer to 4500 rounds per employee (over 4 per us citizen tho).

Originally posted by milkyway12
At the firing range, using issued rounds, it is not uncommon for me to go through 400 - 600 rounds every other day, by myself.

Yep!

7,000 of those employees are Secret Service. I would guess a Secret Service agent could easily blow through 5,000 rounds per month for training. 5,000 x 12 months x 7,000 employees =420,000,000 rounds just for Secret Service. If only half the agents carry weapons, and only train half as much as I imagine, it is still 100 million rounds just for the Secret Service, before you even look at Coast Guard, Border Patrol, TSA, etc.

Originally posted by CosmicCitizen
reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

 

Sorry but that is closer to 4500 rounds per employee (over 4 per us citizen tho).

For total employees yes.. But I doubt a secretary in a regional office will be armed and ready...

reply to post by getreadyalready


Exactly. People dont understand just how much some departments train, it is ALL they do people.

2nd.

reply to post by My.mind.is.mine


Okay, you are correct that it states for "Commercial Leaded Training" rounds!

Now, I am very interested in just exactly what that means? I can not for the life of me find out if that means they are just dummy rounds or they can actually be used as "live ammunition"....

Here is the pdf for the "Commercial Leaded Training" rounds that is attached to the documents from Homeland Security in question...

HLS LINK

reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

Yes and if the actual % of DHS employees that carry a .40 calibre handgun is say 30% (the rest being administrative staff, etc) then that # is over 3x as much (over an est 15,000 rounds per carrying DHS personnel)!!! Maybe they will use this round for the civilian inmate camps and maybe Obama is about to create the National Defense Force that he talked about during the last campaign. The # of rounds suggests that he will hire a lot (TSA on steroids....I wonder if they will be issued "brown shirts"??).

reply to post by seeker1963


Leaded to replicate the weight maybe...? Possibly dummie rounds though...

training rounds

reply to post by seeker1963


Commrecial Leaded Training Rounds

Apparently CLTA rounds are just regular rounds, per this answer to a supplier...

In April, the DHS first published a solicitation “for commercial leaded training ammunition (CLTA) of various calibers for law enforcement officer firearms training courses” to be used at facilities in the states of Georgia, New Mexico, Maryland and South Carolina, as well as other unnamed DHS offices across the country. At the time the DHS demanded hundreds of thousands of test rounds for an array of ammunition types, including 209,000 rounds of #00 buckshot 8-pellet bullets for 12 gauge guns and more than 2 million shots for a .357 Sig Caliber. With their solicitation set to expire in less than a week, though, the DHS has taken it upon themselves to answer questions from contractors interested in their very pricey proposal.

In the latest amendment, published online over the weekend, the DHS answers such pressing questions as, say, “Would a 223 Rem 64Grain soft point round be acceptable?” in response to their initial request for 1.1 million rounds of .223 Rem Caliber 62.64 Grain JHP. (And, if you’re wondering, the official DHS-authored answer is, “Yes, that would be acceptable.”)

Source

Originally posted by CosmicCitizen
reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

 

Yes and if the actual % of DHS employees that carry a .40 calibre handgun is say 30% (the rest being administrative staff, etc) then that # is over 3x as much (over an est 15,000 rounds per carrying DHS personnel)!!! Maybe they will use this round for the civilian inmate camps and maybe Obama is about to create the National Defense Force that he talked about during the last campaign. The # of rounds suggests that he will hire a lot (TSA on steroids....I wonder if they will be issued "brown shirts"??).

You're forgetting that 75% of this total million rounds are "commercial leaded training rounds".....

reply to post by seeker1963

Training = Target Practice (ie, "Live" rounds).

reply to post by seeker1963


Leaded ammo vs lead free just signifies the type of projectile. A leaded projectile is either a solid lead composite, or will be a jacketed lead projectile. A lead free projectile will be composed of a combination of lead free components such as steel core and copper jacket, solid copper, and compressed powder jacketed. I can assure that it is 100% live ammunition and capable of firing.
Leaded ammo is significantly less expensive than lead free, which is probably why they chose it for the training ammo. I am surprised though that they haven't switched entirely to lead free ammunition because of the health hazards involved in breathing the lead dust from leaded projectiles. This is why some ranges now ban the use of leaded projectiles completely.

reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

Leaded as in heavy for bullet stopping power. IF they used dummy bullets that are not fireable then they would not need that many now would they?

reply to post by SpaDe_

Leaded ammo vs lead free just signifies the type of projectile. A leaded projectile is either a solid lead composite, or will be a jacketed lead projectile. A lead free projectile will be composed of a combination of lead free components such as steel core and copper jacket, solid copper, and compressed powder jacketed. I can assure that it is 100% live ammunition and capable of firing.
Leaded ammo is significantly less expensive than lead free, which is probably why they chose it for the training ammo. I am surprised though that they haven't switched entirely to lead free ammunition because of the health hazards involved in breathing the lead dust from leaded projectiles. This is why some ranges now ban the use of leaded projectiles completely.

So then by HLS using the term, "Commercial Leaded Training" rounds, that is just symantics, when in fact they are real rounds that can be used for more than just training? Yes? NO?