The True Cause of the Impending Collapse of the US Economy

reply to post by queenannie38
Its simple we spend more then we take in and no one wants to make the cuts because they want to stay in power so it comes down to us for voteing the same yahoos in all the time. www.cbpp.org... Here is a link I found interesting. Personally I think we should rein in spending for everthing equally. Get rid of all the people in office now and start from scratch, I know that is asking alot but a guy can have dreams.

Im afraid I must agree to disagree with you on this one:For a couple of reasons,Number 1 if we are looking for someone to blame for the economic turbulance then might I suggest that we only look as far as the mirror,We allow these crooked people to cointue doing what they do best raping us,I think we like it and it is some weird sort of stolkholms syndrome,Only we can change this broken system noone else there is no help only each other.2 Wars are inevtiable we are organisms all fighting for surival and dominance of this floating ball of water in space.We need resorces and minerals from other parts of the globe so we send mussle to do it just like every other civilization befor us.Really there is nothing we can do, the fact is that there are way to many stupid people that watch american idol and teen mom to effectively make a change try telling one of these fat stupid people that there going to be powerless for a couple of days and watch how fast there causing problems for the rest of us trying to fix what we have all aloud to become broken.So imo we are never going to fix it: So what do you do you can try like hell to seclude your self move change your name and number go off the grid and live in a cave till your time is up,Or you could do what I do just enjoy everything you can befor your dead thats the certin thing about life NO ONE MAKES IT OUT ALIVE just enjoy it there are far worse places and times you could have been born in just rember one thing “It's just a ride and we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money, a choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your door, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one.”Mr Bill Hicks

reply to post by queenannie38

The cause of all our troubles is simply WAR.

War

FUNDING

Gotta have funding before you can have a real good war. Bottom line: those who vote to fund the wars and who must then borrow from the fundamentalist funders to pay for war are the cause of our troubles.

reply to post by queenannie38
WOW all that just to say we as a nation are "battle born" and as a result we have turned into warmongers. You are right ofcourse but is it just America or should you also be talking to other large warmonger nations? I see it as a human predator instinct...............this is who we are, you need to change the cause, not the result and that would be human nature........just an opinion.

Originally posted by My_Reality
reply to post by SeesFar

 

In regard to your comments about staying on topic: I don't see it the way you do. This topic is named "The True Cause of the Impending Collapse of the US Economy". The OP views this topic from a slanted lens. Yes, I have read the OP. It is irrelevant. The topic is a collection of words that I quoted a moment ago. The OP sees the impending collapse as related to war. So what? Other individuals do not see it that way. They go on to speak their views on the matter and they get lambasted for not "staying on topic". If I ever saw a thread with an ambiguous title, it is this one.

No one has been 'lambasted' for anything. A courteous reminder about staying on topic is not lambasting. I appreciate the efforts to stay on topic as this is an issue I personally consider important. If you do not, that is fine. That doesn't make it irrelevant.

If anyone has other views on the matter, they are just as free to express them as I am, myself. And when they have, I have responded with statements supported by several legitimate sources.

The point was made that this isn't an us vs them (dems vs gop, etc) but rather focused on what is bringing US ALL down...that is the idea behind staying on topic...pointing fingers at people, at individuals or even groups, is NOT productive and it isn't the point of my bringing this up for discussion. We are all accountable for this and yet it is really no one's fault...we can't fix things by worrying about who might possibly be 'at fault.'

Perhaps the anti-war agenda should allow others to offer their insights without the derogatory comments. That is what I see here. A good amount of posters have pointed out that "WaR" is not the underlying cause of our problems. What do they get in return? Ridiculed. Blatantly in some respects, extremely veiled in other respects.

I hate to point this out, but really...your own comments could be described with those very words.

And I am not 'anti-war.'
I am for peace. Plain and simple. YES, I do have an agenda. Peace and prosperity for all human beings. That more or less comes along with a internal self-directed caveat against a propensity to make derogatory comments when others do not agree. I have not made any derogatory comments here, that I know of and any that might possibly have been, or will be, directed at me, I will ignore.

I do not think it is too much to ask that rebuttals and opposing arguments be supported in the same fashion as I presented the statements being rebutted...with explanation and citations. It is evident when someone has read the supplemental material provided and when they have not.

No. War, Economy, Entitlements, all that nonsense is merely the effect of American policies. The cause goes much deeper. The cause of these effects extends back in time at least 80 years. The effect is not the problem. It is the people, politicians, corporatist, economists, bureaucrats and so on that cause these problems. While there is much positive information in this topic the end result is that members are bickering, complaining and arguing over what they believe to be the cause of these terrible events.

There really isn't all that much 'bickering, complaining, or arguing' in this thread. I am surprised but very pleased about that. I don't know why you are suggesting there is, but surely you've seen much of that, as I have...and would see that this thread is pretty mild. Maybe apathy but still not hostile.

As far as this going back at least 80 years...I'm thinking you refer to start or end of the second world war?
I can see your point although when taken back further, it actually can be seen in its infancy at the same time the US was in its infancy...and then again, take it back even further, as far back as possible...and you can see it when Cain killed Abel or when the Olympians overthrew the Titans.



Although motives were nobler and diplomatic relations much simpler back then (I'm referring now to the infancy of the US)...the founding fathers had much discussion over the risks of having a 'standing army' vs state militias...and the standing army obviously won over the militia idea and today we find that Madison and Jefferson were wise in their warnings and I'd go so far as to say literally prophetic.

As SeesFar pointed out...they studied history and so they knew...what we are learning (the HARD way) once again because most have not studied history...it goes back as far as our memories can reach yet we continue a cycle that is tightening to the point that it threatens our very survival. Time for some old dogs to learn some new tricks.

Infinite growth is simply unsustainable on a planet with finite resources.

reply to post by Doodiebug


Do you have some supporting evidence for your statement?
Because what I've found contradicts the popular opinion that we've been fed regarding entitlements. It takes some digging but it is grounded in data based on figures and dollar amounts instead of relative statistics and out of context comparisons.

Originally posted by Tarzan the apeman.
reply to post by queenannie38

 

Its simple we spend more then we take in and no one wants to make the cuts because they want to stay in power so it comes down to us for voteing the same yahoos in all the time. www.cbpp.org... Here is a link I found interesting. Personally I think we should rein in spending for everthing equally. Get rid of all the people in office now and start from scratch, I know that is asking alot but a guy can have dreams.

Well, I tend to agree with your last statement, but from a practical perspective, right now I think we have to start somewhere and also with what we've got. Reform never comes overnight and it is never easy...even revolution doesn't truly reform but just provide an opportunity and usually that opportunity starts out limited due to circumstances usually accompanying revolution and rebellion.

That being said, once again I bring up the WE THE PEOPLE statement that is (should be) the foundation upon which all national ideas are built upon. And the spending cuts that the Ryan budget proposes totally focus on the things that WE THE PEOPLE need. Food...shelter...health care...even education...and dare I say it...HOPE.

The truth of the matter is that around 17 million of American children live in what is now called 'food insecure' homes...some more insecure than others but what that term means, as defined by the USDA, is:

USDA's revised labels describe ranges of food security
Food Security

High food security (old label=Food security): no reported indications of food-access problems or limitations.
Marginal food security (old label=Food security): one or two reported indications--typically of anxiety over food sufficiency or shortage of food in the house. Little or no indication of changes in diets or food intake.

Food Insecurity

Low food security (old label=Food insecurity without hunger): reports of reduced quality, variety, or desirability of diet. Little or no indication of reduced food intake.
Very low food security (old label=Food insecurity with hunger): Reports of multiple indications of disrupted eating patterns and reduced food intake.

feedingamerica.org...
www.conagrafoodsfoundation.org...
www.strength.org...
www.ers.usda.gov...

There is simply no humanitarian logic in cutting assistance that will increase these numbers! Especially when there IS money that COULD BE made available to alleviate this number right now....but is spent on weaponry and equipping soldiers and maintaining something like 700 American Military bases on foreign soil.

This graphic



presents some startling facts.

According to dosomething.org:

1. In 2010, 17.2 million households, (1 in 7) were food insecure, the highest number ever recorded in the U.S.
   
2. More than 16 million (almost 1 in 5) American children are at risk of hunger.
   
3. Households with children experience food insecurity at almost double the rate of households without children.
   
4. Nearly 1 in 5 children in the U.S. is served by Feeding America, the nation’s largest food bank.
   
5. Five states or districts with the highest rate of food insecure children are Arizona, Arkansas, Oregon, Texas and Washington, D.C.
   
6. America’s Second Harvest annually provides food to over 23 million people. That is more than the population of the state of Texas.
   
7. The USDA recently found that about 96 billion pounds of food available for human consumption in the United States were thrown away by retailers, restaurants, farmers and households over the course of one year.
   
8. Hungry adults miss more work and consume more health care than those who don’t go hungry.
   
9. Kids who experience hunger are more likely to suffer from anxiety, depression, behavior problems, and other illnesses.
   
10. The total cost of hunger to American society is said to be about $90 billion a year.
    
11. In contrast, it would only cost about $10 billion to $12 billion a year to virtually end hunger in our nation.

I did the math...what this means, in just one comparison, is this:
10 B-2 Stealth Bombers = one year's worth of a well-fed (not hungry) America!!

From what I understand, we have 20 of these in active service.

All the complicated attempts at solutions are unnecessary if we just cut the true excess.

Originally posted by NoGod
Im afraid I must agree to disagree with you on this one:For a couple of reasons,Number 1 if we are looking for someone to blame for the economic turbulance then might I suggest that we only look as far as the mirror

In some ways, true.

However...I personally am not looking for 'someone' to blame...I am looking for the reason things are going south and then trying to figure out how to resolve the contributing factors and eliminate the cause...the cause being ACTIONS not the people who decide these actions or who allow them even by failing to protest or who totally remove themselves from it all as much as possible.

Blaming anyone, even ourselves, is not going to help one bit and I think actually is part of the issue in that it diverts and distracts from SOLUTIONS by judgment and justification.

A pragmatic approach is to approach the problem as having a solution that is discoverable and within our power to effect. If WE caused the problem...then WE should be able to resolve it, also.

IF we work together.
IF we refrain from pointing fingers or creating sides.
IF we remember that human beings are what it is all about...not politics or opinions or reputation or status.

Originally posted by Battleline
You are right ofcourse but is it just America or should you also be talking to other large warmonger nations?

Well, since I am an American citizen, I feel compelled to BEGIN 'at home' so to speak...what right do I have to criticize other countries when my own is no example to follow or to promote? That's simply hypocrisy and it is also somewhat of a causative trait that has resulted in our over-zealous butting in to other nations' sovereign right to form and manage their own government and people.

I see it as a human predator instinct...............this is who we are, you need to change the cause, not the result and that would be human nature........just an opinion.

A predator kills to eat. Human beings kill other human beings for a myriad of reasons but never for the purpose of food. That is something almost globally TABOO...so...no...it isn't predator instinct.

I don't know what to call it besides barbaric. But I do know what causes it although I consider it a subject for a forum other than the political one...FEAR is the cause...and I do not believe it is innate human nature to fear but something we have learned from each other and have taught ourselves and everyone else to live by as opposed to our true nature...the very opposite of FEAR...which is love.

Fear is the reason behind all wars...and wars are the reason we are failing to thrive as a nation and even as the human race. People are waking up to this and do not want to live in fear anymore but the simple truth is that FEAR seeks to control while LOVE seeks to liberate. Therefore, control is contested for hotly by a few and the many are denied their liberation. This is possibly explained as a necessary stage in our evolution as a species but who can say for sure? If we survive it, then we might know then.

But like I said, I don't seek to place blame on individuals and I don't think this is the proper forum for the issue of FEAR vs LOVE.

And I do thank you for your thoughts and participation!

reply to post by SeesFar


Excellent post!

And thank you for that link...it really gives a good idea about how the situation gradually and pretty much insidiously morphed from 'protecting American interests' on foreign soil to 'occupation' of foreign nations.

More than anything, your point about APATHY is sadly too accurate.
Diversion and distraction is the worst weapon of mass destruction that has so far existed!

reply to post by queenannie38
Thank you, I am sorry I can't put my thoughts as eloquent as you do so I appreciate your responce and agree with what you say. I just don't think human nature will cahnge any time soon.

Maybe I should also rephrase my predator statement and say "advanced thinking predator", the worst kind I would think, killing for our own personal gain and how many thousands of years now?

Thanks again.

reply to post by My_Reality


But did you thoroughly read all the links that have been provided, both in the OP and by participants? I'm not a politically uninformed person and I believed until a few days ago that the biggest cost our Nation had was the aggregate of the government subsidized entitlement programs. It came up in another thread and QueenAnnie gave me a link or two on the matter. Rather than holding her thoughts in contempt prior to investigating them, I read the links she provided. And then I read more. And then I looked for more. The evidence is there, my opinion was changed and I had to admit that she was correct. My prior belief about the greatest expenditure the government has was, as it turned out, based on the information provided by that same government. It couldn't be that we believe what they tell us, even when we think we're being questioning, could it? I learned something. I was excited to see she'd started a thread on the matter because it is VERY relevant.

She is not viewing the subject of this thread through a 'slanted lens;' she has researched it heavily and thoroughly and one can verify that for oneself with just an hour or so spent doing only minimal research.

There was a thread a week or so ago about fixing the system by not voting. I was shocked! I will be honest and say that I posted that they were WRONG; that we HAD to vote; that there WAS no other way to fix it. But I read and I "listened" and one astute gentleman and I had a nice discussion from thoroughly opposing viewpoints. And do you know what happened? At the end of the discussion, I still did not agree with the premise; however, after giving the premise diligent and thoughtful consideration, I understood WHY those who believed not voting could fix it held those beliefs. I learned something. The points being: It was and is not difficult to remain on topic; it IS courteous to do so. It is not difficult to thoroughly investigate and consider the views of the OP of ANY who has taken the time and shown the courage and initiative to start a thread. From my POV, civil discourse can only occur when one does consider, investigate and politely respond to the topic. One may disagree, but such disagreement can be done civilly.

Of course "other individuals do not see it that way," but no one has been "lambasted" in this thread - at least not up to your post to which I'm responding; I do not know yet what has been posted beyond you, so I could be wrong by the time this reply posts. Do you care to point out which posts contain "derogatory comments?" I see none. In fact, this is one of the more peaceful threads I've read or participated in in a long time.

People have expressed their oppositional views and, in the greater majority of those cases, those views have been acknowledged both by the OP and by others. But those views are not the topic of THIS thread. There are many threads on ATS that ARE about those oppositional views and there is always room for a new thread on those important topics, especially if someone has uncovered new information or done new research to bring to the public eye on those subjects. The OP of this thread is attentive to the participants and is taking care to answer with respect and with additional citations to support her viewpoint. What more could one ask?

You write of "slanted lens;" you denounce the thread as being "irrelevant" with an "ambiguous title," and then you give your summation of the subject matter as "So what?". You complain of lambasting, bickering, and/or complaining. Do you find no irony there?

I would encourage you to thoroughly investigate the topic, to read all the links, to politely attempt to prove why you believe the OP and those who agree with her are wrong by providing citations to back your stance - give us reliable and verifiable sources that contradict those already posted. Who knows? Perhaps you could change the minds of everyone here?

this is truly saddening. the only war I consider we fought for the last 12 years was Saddams and that didn't last long, and the rest has just been one long occupation.

they say the USA did it for the oil, how much oil would it take to pay off 4trillion dollars worth of war at current prices bbl?

There really isn't a single cause for the economy, there's a number of things that factor into that..

1. War, for sure
2. Corrupt banks and the Libor scandal
3. The fed and it's printing of money out of thin air
4. Government spending that goes unchecked

And countless other things... trickle down economics doesn't work, it's never worked.. so we also need to look at unfair tax laws as well as lesson the ability of companies to avoid taxes by moving their money out of the country..

Again.. countless reasons.. the audit of the fed identified trillions of dollars loaned to foreign banks.. I forget the exact figure but it was staggering..

This is a very good thread. One of the main reasons of our economic collapse is the cost of the two major wars, and several hidden minor ones. Many wounded soldiers have to be cared for the rest of their lives at great expense. A book was written back in 2007, published in early 2008, where the direct costs of the Iraq war were given as $3 Trillion at that time. Of course the government lies to make it seem less costly. Indirect costs boost the total cost even higher.
www.amazon.com...
This book does not even cover the cost of the war in Afghanistan. Or the cost of the Iraq war for the years after 2007.
The cost of nuclear weapons is buried in various other agencies besides DOD.
The CIA is active on all major battlefields, but the cost is not part of the DOD budget. Many costs are hidden in the State Dept budget.
The cost of empire is bankrupting us. We need to focus at home instead.

Originally posted by miniatus
There really isn't a single cause for the economy, there's a number of things that factor into that..

1. War, for sure
2. Corrupt banks and the Libor scandal
3. The fed and it's printing of money out of thin air
4. Government spending that goes unchecked

And countless other things... trickle down economics doesn't work, it's never worked.. so we also need to look at unfair tax laws as well as lesson the ability of companies to avoid taxes by moving their money out of the country..

Again.. countless reasons.. the audit of the fed identified trillions of dollars loaned to foreign banks.. I forget the exact figure but it was staggering..

edit on 8/12/2012 by miniatus because: (no reason given)

I have seen numbers ranging from $11 - 21 Trillion. The Fed "loaned" the money at zero interest, and does not expect to be repaid. The Fed is a private bank, and was bailing out its European branches with US citizens dollars.

reply to post by queenannie38


I do not think that war or the war machine is the true or only cause of the declining of the US Economy, it may be part of it, but to say its singlehandedly the reason why, is faulty. In all I think the war machine is needed, because if the US did not have it, then some other country would and things would be the same only the sides would be switched around.

In general humans have been taking advantage of other humans for eons, and the war machine is just a manifestation of that fact. I would say that the US needs to better spend its assets and moneys, and needs to cut back on military spending and more importunately it needs to know and have clarity on what and were all the money is really going.

But again without the war machine, then somebody else war machine will be in your back yard and telling you what to do, and that is a fact that has been common for all of history. In fact you got to ask yourself were the money and funds in all of these military projects and black book projects really going to and for what purpose, it would not surprise me if a lot of them were just wealth redistribution schemes as well because it seems everything else is.

reply to post by queenannie38

....Because it affects everyone…everyone has to eat and have a roof of some sort over his or her head.
A job is nice, too…not to slave at but just to feel useful and of a benefit to self and community.
In addition, if the American economic system collapses, not a single citizen will remain unaffected somehow.

The cause of all our troubles is simply WAR...

War and armaments making, selling, transporting keeps perhaps 1/3 of the USA economy chugging along

consider the 2 million in the armed services, active and reserves


as opposed to the 100 million in 'poverty'
whole some 45 million receive a monthly allotment of Food-Stamps (deficit spending)
many millions collecting extended jobless benefits (another source of deficit spending)
then all the unwed mothers getting WIC and other assistance that is beyond government responsibility but imposed gratis by the Democrat liberal agenda...


all these social & bread-&-circus spending programs along with the War-Machine culture of the decadent
USA is at fault... so just don't blame WAR --- that's a simplistic cop-out



the WAR machine exists to support the bread-&-circus society of free-loaders with their hands held out in anticipation of receiving something-for-nothing ~just because they are alive~

I think everyone can agree that "bloat" is a big problem. Everywhere.

I read on some (elsewhere) chat board that the wife of a US Soldier was making $19 / hr working as a cashier in the Military "PX" - I take this to be an on base 'grocery store'.

OK - I live in a major (and expensive) US city and grocery store cashiers are paid either minimum wage, possibly up to $10 or $12 / hr.

$19?

Little much, don't you think? And of course we've all heard the stories of $900 toilet seats, etc.

Makes you think too - if all this is waste - how many military personnel themselves are extraneous? Now I know, that all the Military Men here on ATS were SEALS, Airborne, Top Guns, and the Super Top Badass Most Coolest Rambo Dudes *ever* but I strongly suspect that there are many excess Potato Peelers, Mail Handlers, and Butt Scratchers in the Military.

Cut the BLOAT.

And that goes for expenditures on raw materials, housing, and anything else in the Military. Get some "Efficiency Experts" in there - cut the fat.

I think that's a start that everyone can agree on.

Subsidizing various commodities has to change next. I have a good friend in this biz who knows more than I, but I am learning. There are reasons *why* corn is in *everything* - including bio diesel which is inefficient (corn based). And the dependence on petroleum products - which it seems to me most of the recent 'wars' are all about.

Level this playing field and we won't need to have wars to gain oil.

Industrial Hemp. Note - this is NOT the 'smoking' kind and I don't mean to bring that up here, which may cause the admins to have a stroke or something. I am talking about *the industrial kind*.

Make jobs for people in this - as well as cleaning up the environment. That could be a source of jobs, you know. And we need to stop crapping where we eat. We're running out of places to put the crap piles. Industrial / Commercial Hemp and other long root plants could *help* the environment too - such as to possibly leach out toxins from polluted areas.

The problem with these last ideas is - those who are now making the $ from their *subsidized* crops - don't want to relinquish their holds. Greed. But this is nothing but another avenue of "Corporate Welfare".

Free College or Uni. Why not? Instead of driving people to the Military for a paycheck and / or 'training' - which usually doesn't amount to squat - Free School. There could be part time jobs for students too - in the above environmental cleaning. Or various infra structure repairs - which absolutely are desperately needed.
(Here again you have the greedy and those with an 'in' who engage in bid rigging and back room deals for such projects. Revamp all this, level the field, and jobs will be created and things will improve.)

In all of these examples - from what I can see - the problems lies with entrenched systems of corruption and greed.

We could keep most things as they are - if we would simply cut the bloat, insider deals, and obsolete subsidies.

There would then be funds to put toward other things.

Wars to gain resources must end. This boils down to Corporations using the Military to secure and lay the infra structure in areas that they want. This is foisting off their operating costs on the taxpayer. "Externalities" - biz term.

Oh, BTW - the US Military is the number one polluter - in the entire world. They do not have to conform to most enviro regs. This is externalizing costs, foisting them off on the taxpayer. Or other innocent people.

Last note - my friend (in commodities) has an interesting theory of something that might be upcoming - the US will go to war with China - in Africa - to gain control of Africa's resources. Consider all the Propaganda already out there ("Kony"), the cities in Africa China has built, the constant breeding Propaganda in the US (more soldiers will be needed), and the upheaval in various African countries that has already occurred (which some appears to have been fomented by outside factions.) Interesting theory. Keep your eyes on this.

War indeed IS a huge issue, and it's not 'defense' anymore - it's raiding for resources. Keep the defense, absolutely. Let Corporate America hire it's own thugs. This is nothing more than externalizing their costs, and is just another form of Corporate Welfare.