The True Cause of the Impending Collapse of the US Economy

"The love of (war) is the beginning of evil."
- apologies to Timothy.

In an effort to remain ON TOPIC, I'm curious just how much money the U.S. spends rebuilding the Countries we've been at war in after the war? Would that not count as a part of overall war spending?

$13 billion in Europe after WWII

Rebuilding Japan cost U.S. taxpayers in EXCESS of $1 mil PER DAY from 1945 - 1952 - or about $2,920,000,000 if my math is correct (and I'm not strong at math, so that should be double checked rather than taken as a factual dollar amount).

Using 1949 as the 'median' year for both Germany and Japan re-building, $13,000,000,000 of 1949 dollars would be worth: $125,000,000,000.00 in 2012 and $2,920,000,000 of 1949 dollars would be worth: $28,076,923,076.92 in 2012.

$50 billion in Iraq

And who has oversight of those re-building funds? Military Spending Waste: Up To $60 Billion In Iraq, Afghanistan War Funds Lost To Poor Planning, Oversight, Fraud

I cannot seem to find, no matter where and how and what terms I use, an overall cost analysis of monies spent by the U.S. in post war reconstruction. If someone else can find such an analysis, would you please post it? I'll continue to search, but could use some assistance.

Does the money our government gives to other Countries as an incitement for them NOT to go to war with someone else also count into the over all 'war' costs?

This is a deep, deep cavern of a subject.

And, really, folks, the OP has made a very valid point about the military/defense spending and how it is hidden; she's done so with countless hours spent on in-depth research for the purpose of bringing something very important to the table. While anyone of sense, reason and the ability to research cannot deny that we have extremely serious financial issues with Social Security, the welfare state, LIBOR, big banks, etc., please respect the OPs topic and remain on it. Too many are veering off in an attempt to bring their own agenda forward rather than respond to the topic of the thread.

Your points about SS and the welfare state and LIBOR, etc. ARE all valid points - so why not make your own threads about those (or go to one of the many threads already existing about those) instead of taking the focus off of the huge importance of this thread?

The focus of this thread is important - it's new, it's fresh, the OP shows significant research and more Americans need to be made aware. Is it too much for all of us to just remain ON topic?

reply to post by queenannie38


Very well written and I commend you for it. I do want to point out a couple of things though that might help you to better cover this subject matter.

1. The Cost of the War on Drugs since the 1950's.
2. Don't use Wikipedia as a source because it is public in nature and full of wrong information.

I don't think anyone has ever calculated the total cost of the War on Drugs, and frankly, it probably 3x more than any amount spent since 2001 on Middle Eastern wars. If the War on Drugs were actually treated like the War on Alcohol of the 1920's, illegal drugs would be virtually non-exsistant today. The amount of money spent yearly by the Federal Government Agencies to fight and participate in the War on Drugs is staggering. Yes, I said "Participate" because they often use Under Cover Operatives to infiltrate drug networks in order to bust them up.
We've seen dirty dealings with IRAN-CONTRA and with FAST & FURIOUS out of the Federal Government. Its time to hold them ACCOUNTABLE for these shenanigans.

At least with the War on Drugs, if the Government would just legalize them all, sell them to the public and tax the crap out of them, we would not have all the problems with it we have today. Everyone who wanted them would get their fill and be done.

The other side of that coin, if not legalize them, then adopt the CHINESE policy of (1) time at rehab, if you offend again, they take you to the stadium on Sunday and POP you in the head with a bullet. That will typically end the discussion and drug problem.

The last thing I need to say here is that WAR has been used to STIMULATE dead economies in the past. That is a proven historical fact, going back to the Greeks and the Romans. WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Fauklands, Middle East and the list goes on and on.

The other thing to take into consideration is the money spent on BLACK PROJECTS, which is where most of our advanced technology and weapons come from. It is horrendous spending.

Thanks for your article.

The financial crisis is due to the problems with capitalism,karl marx explained all of this 150 years ago.

Their is always the boom and bust its the law of nature,to counter the inevitable the USA is occupying other countries to secure resources and trade.They will fail.

reply to post by SeesFar


Thank you for your support on this topic, SeesFar!

Like you, I so hope to remain on topic, stay away from partisan type debates as well as diversionary agendas...and above all, insults (so far so good!) and still keep the thread active.

I have a lot more 'branches' out from this main idea that I'm hoping to include but I have to do it as time allows and I've done well to respond to the posts for which I felt I had a meaningful response (or rebuttal).

The point you bring up about re-construction is a good one and it is one thing I had not yet looked into but it did come to my mind the other day that there is ANOTHER hidden cost of war that has not been factored in. I thank you for your time and effort in bringing this into the discussion.

The Marshall Islands in the northern Pacific ocean was a site at which the US conducted the majority of its post-WWII nuclear testing...it was officially named the Pacific Proving Grounds. This is where Operation Ivy testing was done, including Ivy Mike in 1952 which was a 10.4 megaton hydrogen bomb...it was close to 500 times larger than the bomb dropped on Nagasaki and 750 times as big as the one dropped on Hiroshima in 1945. Before Operation Ivy, there was an island in the chain called Elugelab. After Ivy Mike was detonated, Elugelab was gone. Completely. There is a hole there now.

To make a long sad story short, which is in a sense not right because of the people of the Marshall Islands who have paid DEARLY for our 'testing'...but I don't want to get off-topic here, myself...anyway...we have been paying for this disregard for life and nature in sums quite large but never large enough to compensate for these crimes against people of our planet...this page gives a rundown in chronological order and includes dollar figures.

Now, as far as this inadequate compensation...I do not propose that these types of expenditures can ever be done away with...while there is no comparison of quality of life against mere money, we are not doing even a fraction of what we could and should do in our feeble efforts to try to make things a little better if not right. We can never make this right now that it is already done.

And also, in regard to veteran's benefits, pensions, health care, etc., I feel the same way. We must do MORE...all we can...and never cut back on these costs....money is incomparable to the sacrifices made by our servicemen no matter where or how they served. The fact is....THEY SERVED.

Nevertheless, in this analysis, these costs must be included as past, present, and future costs of the war we have made and are making today...they will also continue to accumulate as long as we continue to be a warring nation hiding behind the idea of 'peace.'

I find it sadly ironic that they would name the Peacekeeper Missile just that. Peace by coercion and oppression and FEAR is not peace...it is dominance and control.

reply to post by queenannie38


As for the blame, all of us, Dems and Republicans. We all got greedy, We have to get the jobs back in the U.S. or we are all screwed. How can we create jobs if there are no benefit to businesses here? Can you beat .25 cents an hour? U.S. corps are doing great but the future for the normal laborer in the U.S. is dim. The future is scary, I see more and more people and families falling apart from the economic situation. None of these politicians have a plan, our political system needs to be repaired because it is broke. Do you trust the CIA, FDA, Homeland security, GSA, police, military and your politicians? If you are not a big wig attorney you are screwed

reply to post by Labrynth2012


Thank you!

I agree. The 'war on drugs' is another waste of not just money but time and resources and people and even good relations with neighboring countries, mainly Mexico. The issues on the border have more to do with the illegal drug trade than anything else and even the immigration to the US is in part, instigated by the poor living conditions of the people living near the border who suffer because of the so-called drug cartel's activities.

I think that would be a good topic for a whole new thread...it is that big and significant, imo.



As far as Wikipedia, yes, I do realize that there is much possibility for error and that not all the information is reliable. But on the other hand, I tend to like Wikipedia for a couple of reasons. Since citations/references are required and notations made when there is not adequate supply of such in any section in the article, I find it easy to reference any part I might choose to use for easy reference and if it isn't a source I have already used or would use, I don't use it through Wikipedia. The reason I like to use links from there (after I verify sources) is that it is usually easy to read and often includes several points of research that otherwise I would have to give several links to rather than just the one...in the interest of getting people to read these things, I find it to be pretty useful. It is up to all of us to do our own fact-checks on anything we look into, anyway, so I do my part and then just hope that someone else is interested enough to continue on their own exploration.

And I do thank you for your suggestions and your thoughts and for participating in the thread!
I hope to find the time to write about things related to this, one of them being the 'war on drugs.'

If so, I will give you a heads up so that you will know where to find it.

Originally posted by Labrynth2012

Very well written and I commend you for it. I do want to point out a couple of things though that might help you to better cover this subject matter.

1. The Cost of the War on Drugs since the 1950's.
2. Don't use Wikipedia as a source because it is public in nature and full of wrong information.

I don't think anyone has ever calculated the total cost of the War on Drugs.....

The other thing to take into consideration is the money spent on BLACK PROJECTS, which is where most of our advanced technology and weapons come from. It is horrendous spending.

Thanks for your article.

Not trying to cut your post up; just trying to highlight specifics.

The subject of the War on Drugs ~ and, while it's not 'war' in the sense that the OP has defined 'war' for the purpose of this thread, it HAS been a declared war, so while I don't want to get off topic, it does sort of fit. Anyway, my Uncle, who lives in Canada, has both told and proven to me that they get far more real news about us than we do; and, the other night there was a television special on Canadian television about the War on Drugs in the U.S. because the U.S. gov't is trying to force Canada to adopt OUR drug policies. That just made me madder because WHEN is our government going to stop trying to force OUR beliefs/policies/etc. on the whole danged world? Anyway, he said the report mention that far more than one TRILLION dollars has been spent, without no good results, whatsoever, in the 40 years since the 'War on Drugs' commenced.

I looked and looked to find a Canadian source on it, but couldn't; however, i did find this

And I hadn't even thought about Black Projects but that is an excellent point. How the heck are we going to find accurate information about that?!

reply to post by Agoyahtah


Agoyahta, some friends and I were just discussing that this morning at breakfast! Seeing how every country seems to owe many other countries "something", it would seem very easy to just wipe the slate clean.

I guess that is just too logical. I thinking the world of Star Trek, something like that happened, and the entire world got off the monetary standard, and every one worked at a job they were happy with, and could have whatever they wanted.

Sounds utopian I guess, but it would be cool.

Originally posted by CosmicCitizen
"The love of (war) is the beginning of evil."
- apologies to Timothy.

drivel deleted

Originally posted by maxzen2004
reply to post by queenannie38

 

As for the blame, all of us, Dems and Republicans. We all got greedy, We have to get the jobs back in the U.S. or we are all screwed. How can we create jobs if there are no benefit to businesses here? Can you beat .25 cents an hour? U.S. corps are doing great but the future for the normal laborer in the U.S. is dim. The future is scary, I see more and more people and families falling apart from the economic situation. None of these politicians have a plan, our political system needs to be repaired because it is broke. Do you trust the CIA, FDA, Homeland security, GSA, police, military and your politicians? If you are not a big wig attorney you are screwed

Well...there is something else to this...not necessarily the greed factor maybe...on our part, anyway...but all that borrowing to pay for war...we borrow against our entitlement program trust funds...we borrow also from other countries by selling treasury bonds.

Everything is MADE IN CHINA these days...or at least it seems like it is everything...almost everything not edible, that is.

So who owns the most Treasury Bonds?

The Guardian

So, how does the US borrow money? Treasury bonds are how the US - and all governments for that matter - borrow hard cash: they issue government securities, which other countries and institutions buy. So, the US national debt is owned mostly in the US - and the $4tn foreign-owned debt is owned predominantly by Asian economies.

(....)

The key findings are:
• As of April this year, US Treasury bonds owned overseas accounted for $4.7tn of the national debt - up 8% on last year. That's not everything - the US now owes over $14tn.
• China is the biggest owner of US Treasury bonds - over $1.14tn by September this year - down -0.3% on last year
• Bonds bought in the UK (mainly private investors and pension funds) are third on the list at $421.6bn - up 120.7%, which is the biggest increase
• Russia saw the biggest decrease, down 45.3% since last year to $94.6bn

And another source with similar data presented in a different format:
mygovernmentcost.com

The main differences from the chart we previously featured are that China’s holdings are much greater, while the United Kingdom’s holdings are much smaller, which is a result of a number of Chinese institutions using banks in the United Kingdom as intermediaries for purchasing and holding U.S. government-issued debt. As a result, China’s real U.S. debt holdings now account for 9.5% of the entire U.S. national debt outstanding (nearly 1 out of every 10 dollars the U.S. government has borrowed), instead of the 7.5% that was previously recorded.

Meanwhile, the U.K.’s recorded holdings have shrunk by a corresponding 2.0% of the entire U.S. national debt as a result of this accounting adjustment.

Finally, one question that came up after our original post was “How much of the national debt held by U.S. individuals and institutions is being held by the U.S. Federal Reserve?”

We found that as of September 29, 2010, the Federal Reserve held 966 billion dollars of the U.S. national debt in the form of U.S. Treasury Securities or Federal Agency Debt Securities, which represents 16.9% of all U.S. individual or institutional debt holdings, or approximately 7.1% of the total national debt.

Originally posted by seabag
I don’t think military spending is a waste of money. If it is then explain why China and other countries continue to expand theirs?

Because we continue to expand OURS.

To blame all of the nation’s problems on wars is a stretch. The numbers simply don’t support that theory. I would agree that spending needs to be cut in MANY areas including defense, but liberals always cut defense and it never helps curb their spending habits or fix the economy; the money just goes other places.

When is the last time there was an actual cut made in defense spending?
Do you know?


Bipartisan Debt Deal

Defense Budget Cuts

Sometime in the 1990's...from what I gather, probably 1998...after 9/11 there have been none until the one possibly being put into force by the indecision of the current congress deliberations.

A new kind of survey reports, perhaps, a more accurate picture of true public opinion on these matters...when presented with neutral facts and figures not manipulated by the spin doctors and pundits.

Different article, same survey

Originally posted by seabag
I don’t think military spending is a waste of money. If it is then explain why China and other countries continue to expand theirs?

I'm not trying to nag on you by posting another reply to this after replying already, but I didn't have time to find any thing to support my own (opinion) answer to this question...but I can only offer OPINION since I am not a citizen of China and certainly no expert on their practices or theories, etc.,...so I did find another (opinion)...in an article supported with a statement by a Chinese military spokesperson which would be less opinion and more of an answer to your question of WHY...

www.nti.org...

This is the (expert) opinion, by "Nonproliferation expert" Joseph Cirincione, at the end of the article:

"Missile defenses, however benign they appear to the side building them, always force others nations to improve and increase their offensive weapons," Cirincione, who heads the Ploughshares Fund, stated by e-mail

Although I have to admit...that statement seems somehow backward to me...especially in consideration of how nuclear arms and military in general has developed globally post-WWII.

But I'm admittedly not an expert.

And here is the statement from the Chinese official:

The United States' continued missile defense activities might force China to update its nuclear armaments, Reuters quoted a high-level Chinese military official as saying on Wednesday (see GSN, June 4). "It undermines the strategic stability," Maj. Gen. Zhu Chenghu, with the National Defense University in Beijing, said while attending an event in Vienna, Austria. "We have to maintain the credibility of deterrence."

Just fyei, I googled worldwide defense in response to us defense and this was the very first hit, being the most current..

Originally posted by ctdannyd

Sounds utopian I guess, but it would be cool.

WAY cool...

Thoughts are things...mind is the builder, your life is the result.

...so....KEEP those thoughts in mind!
I do.

If there is a civil war in the USA, I will without a doubt be the best Commander since I have the most experience and will undoubtedly win the most territory with my vast knowledge of tactics and strategy.

going back to one of my previous posts on another thread is that we're barbarians with sophisticated weaponry and will shoot anyone for anything.

If all that money was to be no more, and there are no more wars/pillages of any kind, then we can finally do some real good.

Puny humans.

Are you joking?

Now Hulk smash.

Entitlement's are sixty percent of our gdp. This theory is shot to piece's.

reply to post by SeesFar


In regard to your comments about staying on topic: I don't see it the way you do. This topic is named "The True Cause of the Impending Collapse of the US Economy". The OP views this topic from a slanted lens. Yes, I have read the OP. It is irrelevant. The topic is a collection of words that I quoted a moment ago. The OP sees the impending collapse as related to war. So what? Other individuals do not see it that way. They go on to speak their views on the matter and they get lambasted for not "staying on topic". If I ever saw a thread with an ambiguous title, it is this one.

Perhaps the anti-war agenda should allow others to offer their insights without the derogatory comments. That is what I see here. A good amount of posters have pointed out that "WaR" is not the underlying cause of our problems. What do they get in return? Ridiculed. Blatantly in some respects, extremely veiled in other respects.

No. War, Economy, Entitlements, all that nonsense is merely the effect of American policies. The cause goes much deeper. The cause of these effects extends back in time at least 80 years. The effect is not the problem. It is the people, politicians, corporatist, economists, bureaucrats and so on that cause these problems. While there is much positive information in this topic the end result is that members are bickering, complaining and arguing over what they believe to be the cause of these terrible events.

Divide & Conquer is working well it seems.

Originally posted by maxzen2004

As for the blame, all of us, Dems and Republicans. We all got greedy, We have to get the jobs back in the U.S. or we are all screwed. How can we create jobs if there are no benefit to businesses here? Can you beat .25 cents an hour? U.S. corps are doing great but the future for the normal laborer in the U.S. is dim. The future is scary, I see more and more people and families falling apart from the economic situation. None of these politicians have a plan, our political system needs to be repaired because it is broke. Do you trust the CIA, FDA, Homeland security, GSA, police, military and your politicians? If you are not a big wig attorney you are screwed

I fully agree with you that the blame lies upon all of us; however, while there is absolutely no denying that there is an abundance of greed, I see overall apathy as being an even greater contributor than the greed. Had the American public stood up and demanded that we maintain our original position of neutrality (which wasn't all THAT neutral but better than what it's been since 1917 - yes, it's a Wik link, but the list is good/accurate/easily read), using our military only for self-defense or protection of our citizens in other Countries, we wouldn't be in the mess that we're in.

Our political system IS broken. From my POV, that is also a result of apathy. The citizenry became UNengaged from true participation in the way the Founding Fathers intended for our Republic to work and the Founding Fathers knew that that would be the outcome because they were great historians. The Constitution was based upon the lessons of history but those lessons are no longer taught and few take the initiative to learn history for themselves. It is said that Benjamin Franklin once said: "We have given you a Republic, if you can keep it."

Franklin also believe the Constitution would last only as long as the people could sustain it: "In these sentiments, sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults; if they are such; because I think a general government necessary for us, and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered; and I believe, further, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other." - Benjamin Franklin

WE do need to repair it but that will not happen until a preponderance of the citizenship becomes engaged again with a common purpose.

Unfortunately, as a Country, we are so divided that I don't know what the common purpose could be. In another thread, an insightful member posted that he believed it would require a catalyst of some sort to cause us to all set aside differences and focus on a common goal. The unknown factor (and a fearful one, at that) is WHAT kind of catalyst would it take to get all Americans to set aside greed, self-importance, entitlement, self-indulgence, apathy, etc. and come together?

That is the reason I view this particular thread as one of great and timely importance as it does at least SEEM that most Americans are tired of the wars - could THAT be the one common agreement most Americans could come together on?

WWI: April 1917 - November 1918
WWII: December 1941 - December 1945
Korea: 1950 - 1953
Cold War: 1947 - 1991
VietNam 1950 (really '45) - 1975

And we all pretty much know (or should know) what's been going on since 1980 - but, for any who don't, please run down the list provided at the first link in this post.

I thoroughly AGREE with others who've said our welfare/entitlement programs are breaking this Country; I agree with those who've said it's the dirty banking and Wall Street; I agree that we must get jobs back in our Country; I agree that the Fed is behind a huge amount of our problems ~ every single one of those points are extremely valid and subsisting points ~ but I cannot agree that any, or even ALL, of those things come close to matching what our Country has spent on military involvement.

The future IS scary. People and families ARE falling apart due to the economic situation but it's more than that: Americans have disengaged not only from our political system but from one another. While I still see acts of kindness, I see far more acts of coldness. The generations of war and the idea that the U.S. government can 'force' its will upon the people of other Nations has infiltrated the thinking processes of the American citizenry and we have too many of our own acting out violently toward others of our own. As a people allows, so it becomes.